The South Guard needs to be removed

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Higher Game
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The South Guard needs to be removed

Post by Higher Game »

It fails its job as a newbie campaign, and it isn't that great by itself, either. Here's why.

#1- No mages or horsemen. This retards strategic development and thought for new players. It doesn't keep it "simple", it just keeps things stupid. Almost all scenarios involve bashing spearmen against various outlaws. You get promotions, and they don't, and if they did, there are no level 3's for them, so the game becomes too easy later on. I know the campaign should be easy, but as it is now, it's harder in the beginning and easy in the end!

#2- Temptation to save/reload is too high. This is a bad habit that newbies should avoid, and this is the worst campaign for this. Fighting footpads all the time means luck matters more than usual, which is saying a lot. Since there are no mages, this makes much of the combat annoying.

#3- One of the last branches is poorly made. For example, skipping the ice bridge in a cave scenario because it's trapped is a good move, but it will eventually break anyway from a tile far south of it, and the guy who steps on it will think he's trapped. That whole stage is a waste, anyway, since the only "challenge" is trying to kill an ancient lich in a cave, which is not only extremely difficult, but there is no room for tactics. It's all luck with your mage of light, really, and that brings us back to #2.

#4- The level up system is broken. It just doesn't work, and it's not the way it is in normal Wesnoth. Trying to give your hero barbs (slow) or your ally an extra swing doesn't do anything.

#5- The guy who made the thread on it hasn't posted in months, and there are still bugs and balance issues in the campaign.

#6- There are many better campaigns that are not official, and should be.

#7- Don't we have enough loyalist campaigns?

#8- Two Brothers is a great newbie campaign, and Heir to the Throne isn't overly difficult, making The South Guard unnecessary, at least until it's cleaned up.

That's all.

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zookeeper
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Post by zookeeper »

I agree with #3 and #5. There are bugs and plenty of plain bad scenario design, and there is no maintainer for the campaign so these are unlikely to get fixed. On the other hand, no other mainline campaigns are really maintained nowadays either.

I wouldn't object to removing it at all, simply due to these things.

However, what are these non-mainline campaigns that, to you, seem worthy to be added to mainline? I'm guessing something like Sceptre of Fire, myself.

troodon
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Post by troodon »

zookeeper wrote
However, what are these non-mainline campaigns that, to you, seem worthy to be added to mainline?
"Northern Rebirth" and "Son of the Black Eye", both made by Taurus.

Higher Game
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Post by Higher Game »

I'd like Son of the Black Eye back in. It has a few minor issues, but at least the guy behind it is still around, and will fix them in time. Flight to Freedom would also do, after a bit of work, since there should be a Drake campaign. Drakes aren't even seen that much in the other campaigns. It's almost as if they're just a multiplayer only race, at this point.

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Viliam
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Post by Viliam »

I like this campaign because it is short, has two different endings, and some of the late scenarios are original.

But the choice of units is very small. Finding a... secret... at least makes some difference. It would be nice if someone would volunteer to maintain and fix it...


If I remember correctly, the Son of the Black Eye campaign was unfinished.

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Eleazar
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Post by Eleazar »

zookeeper wrote:I agree with #3 and #5. There are bugs and plenty of plain bad scenario design, and there is no maintainer for the campaign so these are unlikely to get fixed. On the other hand, no other mainline campaigns are really maintained nowadays either.

I wouldn't object to removing it at all, simply due to these things.
Nobody denies that tSG still needs work, however, it's not unmaintained even though Aelilus had pretty much left. If you check SVN there are a 20 changes in SVN since March, mostly Noyga and myself.

But that shouldn't prevent someone from submitting a patch or other fixes.


There aren't only 5 spots for mainline campaigns. If there are other campaigns that add something new, and qualify to be added, it can be weather or not tSG stays in as part of mainline.
Feel free to PM me if you start a new terrain oriented thread. It's easy for me to miss them among all the other art threads.
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joshudson
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Post by joshudson »

I don't think SoF is going in anytime soon. Some nice history issues to work out. But that's another topic altogether.
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troodon
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Post by troodon »

what's SoF?

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irrevenant
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Post by irrevenant »

troodon wrote:what's SoF?
"Sceptre of Fire" - Turin's campaign.

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Post by Gus »

Northern Rebirth and Flight to Freedom are a long, long way from being good enough to be included in the game, IMHO.

Last i played SotBE, i really enjoyed it, and it is good to play something else than Loyalists/Rebels. Sceptre of Fire is a very good start, but it needs modifications before going in, some scenarios are way too dependant on luck, due to extremely tight time limits.
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Higher Game
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Post by Higher Game »

Flight to Freedom needs more terrain variety, the enemies of some stages should be balanced a bit, and it needs to stuff the underground levels where they belong, in the trash, which is something all campaigns should do. Interestingly, I noticed that there is a new underground terrain called a mushroom grove, which is like a forest. Looks like developers DID listen to my complaints about underground levels lacking tactical terrain. :twisted: They're still boring, though.

I don't know about Northern Rebirth just yet, but Son of the Black Eye is in good shape, even though it's only really playable on the easiest difficulty (which is like normal on most campaigns), due to how hard it is. Lots of people like it, though, and it was part of the official campaigns for a while, anyway. It's still certainly more deserving than buggy crap like The South Guard, though.

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Eleazar
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Post by Eleazar »

Higher Game wrote:Interestingly, I noticed that there is a new underground terrain called a mushroom grove, which is like a forest. Looks like developers DID listen to my complaints about underground levels lacking tactical terrain. :twisted: They're still boring, though.
Yeah, :roll: Freim created them nearly a year ago, long before you showed up. How long will it be until you learn the universe doesn't revolve around you?
Feel free to PM me if you start a new terrain oriented thread. It's easy for me to miss them among all the other art threads.
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Maeglin Dubh
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Post by Maeglin Dubh »

I didn't want to lock this, because some people were actually making sense regarding campaign inclusion, but try to keep things on that topic. Higher Game, you are not that important to this project, and in all honesty, neither am I. You're just comic relief, for the most part, and I'm just a cop. People far above us are the ones who make these decisions. In this case, I happen to think you have a point about The South Guard. This is a rarity, based on the posts I've seen in the Strategy forums, where you may remember I've defended you in the past, so I don't want to hear about me having any vendettas against you or "Maeglin doesn't like me because I tell it like it is."

Carry on.
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Post by Oreb »

All I can agree on is #3 and #5, but it's still a very interesting and enjoyable campaign for beginners. I tried introducing a friend to wesnoth, he played the tutorial, then the South Guard, I watched him play 2 of the scenarios, at which he never used the autosave feature to go back (He knew about it). As well as doing rather good, cause depending on what happens, you can get, mermen, elves, or outlaws fighting with you. Which does provide variety.

SotB, I thought that was completed, or is very near completion, it just needs to fix up a few balancing issues.
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Sly
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Post by Sly »

I agree on some points (mostly 3rd and 5th, maybe 7th)
I think SotBE is the best candidate for official campain, but it needs some polishing and is sometimes very tricky (some scenario like the desert one or the two in the snow).

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