My Wesnoth 1.3 wish list

Post by **Taurus** » November 16th, 2006, 8:47 pm

turin wrote:I'd just like to say that I don't consider HttT a particularly great campaign. It's good, but not as good as several others (TRoW, for example). I just don't understand statements like Villiam's implying that it is the "first great campaign". Would someone please explain to me why they do?

I more or less aggree with Turin. I personally like HttT, but there are many campaigns that are on par with, or better then it. I think people imply it is the 'first great campaign' because it is the first campaign they play. For someone compleatly new to wesnoth, and with the novelty of the whole game, it is pretty exciting. But once they get through a copule campaigns and the novelty starts to wear off a bit, it takes increacingly better and better campaigns to keep them interested.

Post by **Viliam** » November 17th, 2006, 10:55 pm

Taurus wrote:I personally like HttT, but there are many campaigns that are on par with, or better then it. I think people imply it is the 'first great campaign' because it is the first campaign they play. For someone compleatly new to wesnoth, and with the novelty of the whole game, it is pretty exciting. But once they get through a copule campaigns and the novelty starts to wear off a bit, it takes increacingly better and better campaigns to keep them interested.

Yeah, maybe this is the reason I like it most. This is not only the first campaign in Wesnoth 1.0, but also the historically first campaign in Wesnoth ever (I started playing Wesnoth when there were no other campaigns yet). And probably the order in which one plays campains, has a big role.

So, let me ask: Which non-mainline campaigns are in your opinion better than HTTT, or equal, or having chance to be better if improved? Maybe we should select one of those, and make a brainstorming about now to improve it, and get added to mainline...

Post by **Taurus** » November 18th, 2006, 5:57 am

Viliam wrote: Yeah, maybe this is the reason I like it most. This is not only the first campaign in Wesnoth 1.0, but also the historically first campaign in Wesnoth ever (I started playing Wesnoth when there were no other campaigns yet). And probably the order in which one plays campains, has a big role.

So, let me ask: Which non-mainline campaigns are in your opinion better than HTTT, or equal, or having chance to be better if improved? Maybe we should select one of those, and make a brainstorming about now to improve it, and get added to mainline...

I don't know if it is propor or not for me to voch for my own Campaign, but I would nominate the compleated version of SotBE to be inculded back in the mainline. I had a lot of fun compeating, and in the end, playing that campaign and I feel - with all humility of course - that I did a pretty good job. As a bonus, it uses a race which is different from all the mainline campaigns (well that isn't to difficult is it, the only mainline orthodox factions are rebels and loyalits). Anyhow, I won't say more less I start sounding like I am praising myself...

Other Campaigns that I think are good enough to add to the mainline are Liberty, and maby Saving Elinsifer. Defadors Memors would definatly be good enough if it was compleate...

-> What i might be working on · Post by **Eleazar** » November 18th, 2006, 11:37 am

What would i like to see in 1.3?
In order of importance to me, (not difficulty to implement)

I'm not including several great things that seem to be happening without the need of my wishing like more powerful TColoring, or the reformation of Terrain Labels.

An automatic display (without semi-transparent overlays) of different "Times of Day" across various tiles.

Multiple units recall-able at once. Also that the dialog would remember it's last sort order and scroll position.

Many of Freim's concepts for an improved GUI to be implemented.

Displaying only the basic terrain type name

A Strategic Map view.

More Race/Faction specific Flags.

A radical proposal: Basing cave movement penalties on light, not terrain.

WML for interior transitions that actually works.

Team ellipses appearing on selected units even when ellipses are turned off

Moving status icons over the unit picture in the sidebar.

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » November 18th, 2006, 1:30 pm

Taurus wrote:Other Campaigns that I think are good enough to add to the mainline are Liberty, and maby Saving Elinsifer. Defadors Memors would definatly be good enough if it was compleate...

You have a fairly low standard for mainline... on the other hand, this low standard is upheld by a few of the current mainline campaigns...

Post by **Zebulon** » November 18th, 2006, 2:17 pm

I'd like to see freim's wasteland in 1.3 .

Post by **Taurus** » November 18th, 2006, 4:29 pm

Elvish Pillager wrote:
Taurus wrote:Other Campaigns that I think are good enough to add to the mainline are Liberty, and maby Saving Elinsifer. Defadors Memors would definatly be good enough if it was compleate...
You have a fairly low standard for mainline... on the other hand, this low standard is upheld by a few of the current mainline campaigns...

Edit: Liberty with a bit more pollishing on the last few scenarios (not sure if it has been done or not, but I am basing this on the last time I played the campaign). And Saving Elinsfer wasn't that bad IMHO, at least the more recient version. Could use a bit of polishing but what's new.

Chris7mas · Post by **Chris7mas** » November 18th, 2006, 4:42 pm

How about switching to 3D graphics? Are there any thoughts about this?

Post by **turin** » November 18th, 2006, 4:47 pm

No.

Not no as in there has been no thought about it. No as in it is a horrible idea that will hopefully never be used.

Nothing personal, just... damn. That's a horrible idea.

Post by **Dave** » November 18th, 2006, 4:50 pm

Chris7mas wrote:How about switching to 3D graphics? Are there any thoughts about this?

You mean, throw away all the artwork we have done, alienate all our current artists whose hard work has been discarded, and who can no longer contribute because they may not be skilled at 3D artwork, and then hope that we get some skilled 3D artists and programmers, and that perhaps by about 2010 the game looks somewhere vaguely as good as it does today?

Hmmm......no. But, thank you for the suggestion.

David

Post by **Dave** » November 18th, 2006, 5:07 pm

turin wrote:I'd just like to say that I don't consider HttT a particularly great campaign. It's good, but not as good as several others (TRoW, for example).

I do concur with this sentiment. HttT was originally developed by me, with some help from Francisco, between actually developing the game engine which consumed most of my time.

Many of the scenarios were of the form "we have this half-decent map someone made...now where can we slot it in?" The characters had no clearly designed personalities other than a few cliches. The scenarios beyond the first eight began to deteriorate in quality.

Some of these problems have been fixed through the hard work of contributors such as scott, but I think a campaign that is developed with at least one person's full attention and dedication to quality will be better.

I think HttT was probably the best campaign around until Shade showed us how a quality campaign should be done with TRoW (I do think HttT is a better campaign than Eastern Invasion, however I think Turin's later works are better than HttT). Then we started seeing quite a few quality campaigns pop up from various authors.

I am still of the opinion that a key to creating a good campaign is length: it is hard to make a campaign seem high quality if it lasts for 20+ scenarios. Limit it to a dozen, and put all the effort you can into making these dozen as good as possible, and you can come up with a quality product.

David

Chris7mas · Post by **Chris7mas** » November 18th, 2006, 7:10 pm

turin wrote:No.

Not no as in there has been no thought about it. No as in it is a horrible idea that will hopefully never be used.

Nothing personal, just... damn. That's a horrible idea.

OK, no problem. I'm new to this game and I was just asking, I know it's not a game where graphics should matter that much. It's great as it is anyway, it was just an innocent question

new · Post by **new** » November 19th, 2006, 4:01 pm

Clonkinator wrote:Well, I think I can make some good maps, and so I would be glad to help you, if you want.

Yes I can help you guys, too with create maps. Clonkinator, this is usually my job but more map creators are better

.

P.S.: I like you

(because you are german and 13 or 14 years old

)

Post by **Dave** » November 19th, 2006, 4:44 pm

Chris7mas wrote:I know it's not a game where graphics should matter that much.

Personally I think that Wesnoth's graphics now can be regarded as quite high-quality. Just because the 'style' of our graphics is different to many contemporary commercial games doesn't mean we are inferior.

If we didn't think that graphics mattered, our game would likely look like this: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/screens.html. [1] Instead, we have stylish, animated 2D graphics that our artists have worked tirelessly on.

David

[1] I'm not saying Dwarf Fortress is a bad game...in fact it looks quite good. Just pointing out that it is the kind of game where the designers really, truly did not concentrate on graphics.

Multiplayer Scenarios / Campaigns · Post by **Rhuvaen** » November 19th, 2006, 5:46 pm

Dave wrote:
turin wrote:I'd just like to say that I don't consider HttT a particularly great campaign. It's good, but not as good as several others (TRoW, for example).
I do concur with this sentiment.

I still think I enjoyed HttT a lot more than TRoW. After a few attempts at TRoW I've never managed to continue TRoW past the Southbay scenario (out of waning interest, in case you were wondering

). Many early TRoW scenarios feel tedious and lengthy. The ones with shroud on offer surprises, of course, and need playing twice to get the most out of

. There are a few scenarios that are truly exceptional, such as the agonizing Temple of the Deep scenario, but that one is also very luck-based.

I'm also not sure I like the chaotic/lawful unit mix in TRoW.

IMO, HttT features more different types of scenarios that make you rethink your strategy instead of recruiting simply the best you have, and slogging towards the enemy. Maybe it's also simply that using elvish units, the maps tend to offer clearer challenges and/or advantages to the player (whereas loyalist units will take any terrain advantages they can get, but face a logistical problem of moving into position).

Dave wrote:I think a campaign that is developed with at least one person's full attention and dedication to quality will be better. [...] it is hard to make a campaign seem high quality if it lasts for 20+ scenarios.

I guess this is true especially for the overall dynamic of the campaign (as opposed to the balance of individual scenarios), and the building of tension and development of the story. IMO it should possible to review those aspects in hindsight and tweak the campaign to work better in those respects. I don't think that campaigns must be cast perfectly in the moment of conception and cannot be modified without breaking the mould in which this was done.