My thoughts on the game so far

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Higher Game
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My thoughts on the game so far

Post by Higher Game » August 16th, 2006, 5:10 am

Well, I just played a multiplayer match against the AI, in the blitz map, and I won it very easily. I was the rebels and he was the loyalists. I only got 1 leveled up unit, and it was an elven ranger; go figure. I posted earlier that elven archers are much stronger than the other units, and so far, I've been right. :twisted: My neutral elves are great against the lawful guys he sent at me; night combat made things much easier, even if I had to hold back a little bit and wait sometimes. I was very lucky, though. I got lots of luck streaks and he tried to use horsemen against my archers, who even had a numbers advantage over him. I still had a great time with the match and I might just play another meatbag soon. :D

Overall, I think this game tries to be (and in multiplayer, SUCCEEDS) in emulating X-Com, where veterans are nice, but a solid team of newbies can get the job done. I've beaten X-Com with a team of newbies before, nothing but rookies going to Cydonia to finish the game. Blaster launchers are helpful, obviously, but the point is, it's possible. However, that just isn't possible in campaign mode in this game. :evil: The later stages are so difficult, and gold is so finite, that the cannon-fodder attitude of the multiplayer mode doesn't apply.

Let me bet honest here. The campaigns suck. They are very easy on easy mode when gold flows freely, and are too difficult in anything else. It's crazy to expect a unit to kill 3+ enemies before leveling. The campaigns are simply not the best representation of the game and they're very unfriendly to newbies. I'm a newbie, but I've still played my fair share of turn based strategy games.

Just out of curiosity, are units recalled in multiplayer matches, like a best of 3, maybe 5 or something? I think it's a great idea to add to the game, if it hasn't already been added, since I've never played a multiplayer match that spans several levels. :) It would be like an online campaign. It seems like a cool idea to me.

Sombra
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Post by Sombra » August 16th, 2006, 6:01 am

I am although a NOOB but I think you should try to test your view of the gmae in MP regarding overpowered units. Elven archers are very good yes but overpowereed I dont know right now.

Regarding the campaings, I think they are done wonderful. Even with such a simple game mechanics, most levles play different .(Heir of the throne) Sometimes you have to fight , sometimes to run and in other stand your ground...

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JW
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Post by JW » August 16th, 2006, 6:17 am

If campaigns are too easy on Easy and too hard on Hard, perhaps you should try Medium? 8)

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Re: My thoughts on the game so far

Post by zol » August 16th, 2006, 6:25 am

Higher Game wrote:a solid team of newbies can get the job done.
...
However, that just isn't possible in campaign mode in this game. :evil: The later stages are so difficult, and gold is so finite, that the cannon-fodder attitude of the multiplayer mode doesn't apply.

Let me bet honest here. The campaigns suck. They are very easy on easy mode when gold flows freely, and are too difficult in anything else.
Then abandon your first premise and try to master a strategy appropriate to the challenge instead of trying to change the challenge to fit your habits.

Later levels are more difficult, and introduce new challenges, and it is normal to have to go back and replay scenarios at a higher skill level based on what you have learned to advance further.
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Post by Higher Game » August 16th, 2006, 6:51 am

I DO play on medium, of course. Sorry for not stating it more clearly. In fact, I can play just fine against the AI opponent, too. It's just the campaigns that are bad and unbalanced. And it's simply boring to replay a dozen levels because I didn't know about the demon hydras (made that up, but not the point) on level 15 that I should have prepared ice paladins for.

Also, does every battle HAVE to start at day? The northerners are supposed to be a cannon-fodder horde, in theory, but they have both numbers AND strength advantages, since the combat always starts at night, it seems. I like playing as neutral elves, since a lawful -50% disadvantage would make it unplayable, but -25% is still tough.

I don't see what sort of tactics would improve my game. I am sensitive to terrain and positions, but the very high mobility of every game unit makes these kind of moot. If battles involved 20-30 guys instead of 8-14, then position and tactics would matter a lot more, but with the small battles the game encourages, it's very easy to just run around defenses. This makes it easy for me to kill, but hard to not get killed back! :P I do kill probably 2 guys for every casualty, on average, but this just doesn't seem to be enough.

Konrad is really, really weak for a hero unit. It only takes 2 enemies a single turn, on average, to kill him, even in a forest. I'd like to see him leveled up, but he is just too frail to do anything. Even shamans and elf scouts have ranged attacks, and he only has melee; he's weaker than they are! :lol:

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Post by Sombra » August 16th, 2006, 7:36 am

It seems you are ignoring the concept of ZOC to control enemies movement.

If you play a side with an adavantage at night or at day. Well its exactly what you should try to do... Survive at the unfavorable time of day and advance when you are in advantage. I agree that on small maps this can be tricky.

Regarding the campaigns. Playing careful and do not "overbuy" . You dont need always your whole army. Mantain a positive income and you dont run into money troubles later on. Recall mostly "loyal units"

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zookeeper
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Post by zookeeper » August 16th, 2006, 8:48 am

Higher Game wrote:And it's simply boring to replay a dozen levels because I didn't know about the demon hydras (made that up, but not the point) on level 15 that I should have prepared ice paladins for.
Yep, this is one of the worst faults of Wesnoth campaigns in general IMO. Also the fact that you must "know" how much gold you should save for the rest of the campaign is dorky.
Higher Game wrote:It's crazy to expect a unit to kill 3+ enemies before leveling.
This one sounds rather odd to me, I must say. I've never had huge problems with leveling (sure, sometimes a few lucky bastards come, get all hits in and kill my almost-leveled unit or hero), my leveling strategy being something like this: I pick the units I want to give most of the xp to beforehand, traits usually being the decisive factor. A dextrous,resilient archer or a strong,resilient fighter being the usual favourites, as are obviously all the loyal units you happen to get, as well as heroes (leveling Konrad as quickly as possible is a rather good idea). Then, in battle I simply try to manouver so that I can weaken enemies without putting my precious to-be-leveled units in much danger so they can pick off the easy kills. I use the pesky quick,intelligent (or actually, almost anything with intelligent :P) units I have as a cover, meaning that they can take a beating and die since I wouldn't be recalling them anyway later, their only purpose being to cover my more precious units (or course, you must preserve them enough that you still have some cannon fodder left throughout the scenario, so don't get all of them killed in the first clash). Smart use of ZoC is rather vital in doing this.

Also, playing by minimizing the damage I take, instead of maximizing the damage I deal seems to help a lot. Not sure what style you're using.

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Post by turin » August 16th, 2006, 4:16 pm

Clearly many other people are able to play campaigns effectively on medium and hard, so it seems to me that the problem is you, not the campaigns. ;)
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Higher Game
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Post by Higher Game » August 16th, 2006, 5:38 pm

I do know how to use ZOC. It usually just doesn't work effectively given the small number of units in an average battle and the high speed of most units. It would be more useful in 20+ unit battles, but these just don't happen much, if at all. It's useful in a few places, but mostly it's an academic question. It only takes 2 level 1's to kill another level 1, and 3 to kill a level 2, in a single turn, even on favorable terrain. Levels matter in the campaigns, but as a whole, most units are too frail to survive for any extended period of time.

It should be possible to buy higher level units just for the campaigns, and increase the minimum starting gold from 100 to an appropriate amount for each level. I play all Doom levels from a pistol start (on ultra violence, too), for example, and it makes the game much more fun than hauling around leftover ammo. It should be possible for any player to take on any campaign level no matter how much he screwed up in the past, instead of starting over. It's more balanced and interesting that way. Veterans should be a minor help, but not necessary, the way it is in X-Com.

I'd like to see some replays. And I'd like to see them with multiple 4+ attack misses per game, too, since that's an expected element that I'd like to see how you guys deal with. :twisted:

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Post by Dragon Master » August 16th, 2006, 5:48 pm

Well, you seem to have a nice grip of the game, but you're going about leveling up units all wrong. The unit you level will not often have killed three or more enemies by going in one on one fights with them. Usually you should finish off weakened enemies with units about to level up. This is one stragedy that works to level shamans. Weaken a unit with all your bruisers and deal the killing blow with the shaman, since it's the last attack that gives the 8 exp.

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Post by JW » August 16th, 2006, 6:30 pm

Higher Game wrote:I play all Doom levels from a pistol start (on ultra violence, too), for example, and it makes the game much more fun than hauling around leftover ammo. It should be possible for any player to take on any campaign level no matter how much he screwed up in the past, instead of starting over. It's more balanced and interesting that way. Veterans should be a minor help, but not necessary, the way it is in X-Com.
Every scenario is possible to beat with only your leader - if you're lucky enough.
I'd like to see some replays. And I'd like to see them with multiple 4+ attack misses per game, too, since that's an expected element that I'd like to see how you guys deal with. :twisted:
How about you upload your replays here and we can tell you what you did wrong. That would be a better way to start this discussion.

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zookeeper
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Post by zookeeper » August 16th, 2006, 6:45 pm

JW wrote:
Higher Game wrote:I play all Doom levels from a pistol start (on ultra violence, too), for example, and it makes the game much more fun than hauling around leftover ammo. It should be possible for any player to take on any campaign level no matter how much he screwed up in the past, instead of starting over. It's more balanced and interesting that way. Veterans should be a minor help, but not necessary, the way it is in X-Com.
Every scenario is possible to beat with only your leader - if you're lucky enough.
And that's the difference. You can beat Doom with only the pistol with skill, but you can't beat Wesnoth with just your leader even with perfect skill. I prefer pure skill games as well, although I guess FPS's (for example) and strategy games can be fundamentally different in this respect.

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Post by JW » August 16th, 2006, 6:58 pm

Oh hey, I just realized you said you're on 1.0.2 in the other thread, right?

Try upgrading to 1.1.8, really. Everything is done so much better. HTTT has really been revamped since 1.0.2 (which was released in what, February?).

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Re: My thoughts on the game so far

Post by betbest1 » August 16th, 2006, 7:12 pm

Higher Game wrote:Just out of curiosity, are units recalled in multiplayer matches, like a best of 3, maybe 5 or something? I think it's a great idea to add to the game, if it hasn't already been added, since I've never played a multiplayer match that spans several levels. :) It would be like an online campaign. It seems like a cool idea to me.
Best. Idea. Ever.
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Post by Elvish_Pillager » August 16th, 2006, 7:44 pm

JW wrote:Try upgrading to 1.1.8, really. Everything is done so much better. HTTT has really been revamped since 1.0.2 (which was released in what, February?).
BEST. IDEA. EVER.

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