I really don't like the new default attack picker...

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Elvish_Pillager
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I really don't like the new default attack picker...

Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Stupid computer trying to be smarter than me. :x

The basic problem is that the new scheme coincides with the attack I actually want to use a whole lot less than the simple which-one-does-the-most-damage system. Plus, since it's so complicated (comaratively) now, I have much less chance of knowing which attack it will default to, so it's even a greater nuisance to attack at all.

Plus, it's not a good idea to have a "smart" algorithm for the default attack to use in the first place.
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Sapient
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Post by Sapient »

Yes, it's getting smarter. Personally, I like it. 8)

Maybe you should give an example with hp/def and attacks of attacker and defender, and then show why the default choice was wrong?
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/User:Sapient... "Looks like your skills saved us again. Uh, well at least, they saved Soarin's apple pie."

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Re: I really don't like the new default attack picker...

Post by Darth Fool »

Elvish Pillager wrote: Plus, it's not a good idea to have a "smart" algorithm for the default attack to use in the first place.
I believe (but could be wrong) that the intent is to show you the attack that the AI would choose. Whether that is a good choice or not is often dependent on other conditions.

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Elvish_Pillager
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Sapient: It's perferred a 4-3 ranged attack to a 7-4 melee attack, when my unit had 9999 HP and the opponent didn't even have very strong melee. (Granted, this is an unusual case, but I would have wanted the melee attack even if my unit had had only 80 HP, for example.)

Darth Fool: If the AI decides to attack one unit with another before deciding which attack to use, something is pretty screwed up inside the AI.
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Steelclad Brian
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Post by Steelclad Brian »

Unit with a medium melee attack and a 1-1 rock throwing ranged ability fights an orc grunt. Default attack is the 1-1 rock throw.

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Post by Darth Fool »

Elvish Pillager wrote: Darth Fool: If the AI decides to attack one unit with another before deciding which attack to use, something is pretty screwed up inside the AI.
:?:
In considering an attack, the AI has to choose which attack to use. It has some algorithem for doing that. It may decide after choosing an attack type not to make that attack, but never the less, it still has the algorithem. I thought, although this may have changed, that the default attack in the chooser is the one that the AI would choose. It doesn't tell you whether the AI would actually then choose to attack with that weapon, just that if it had to choose, that would be the one.

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Elvish_Pillager
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Darth Fool wrote:
Elvish Pillager wrote: Darth Fool: If the AI decides to attack one unit with another before deciding which attack to use, something is pretty screwed up inside the AI.
:?:
In considering an attack, the AI has to choose which attack to use.
No it doesn't; it can consider each attack seperately, which is IMO the only sane way to do such a thing.
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Zhukov
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Post by Zhukov »

EP: if the computer (for whatever reason) doesn't choose by default the attack you wish to use, is it really so hard to click the one you do want?
Sorry, but this seems to me a horribly petty thing to find fault in.

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irrevenant
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Post by irrevenant »

Zhukov wrote:Sorry, but this seems to me a horribly petty thing to find fault in.
I keep seeing this argument (about various things) and I strongly disagree with it. The idea that a problem is too small to be worth fixing seems silly to me; all the little things add up to make the difference between a competent product (in this case, game) and a superb one.

It's one thing to say "this is a low priority thing to fix" (which is entirely reasonable); it's another to say "we shouldn't find fault (and look at fixing it) because it's only a petty fault".

P.S. Not particularly picking on you here Zhukov, you just tripped over one of my bugbears. :)

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Post by Na'enthos »

In the end, one could go with either a 'recommendation' (determined by the computer), a default set attack or no set attacks.

-If the first option isn't working out (and I'm not saying it does, it just seems a lot more work and if it does not seem to work properly, why use it?).. why use it unless it can be 'perfected' (if that's at all possible).

-The 'problem' with a default attack is of course that it might look like a recommendation while it isn't.

-The third option, which just came to me, is to have no attacks selected and to let the player choose. If this is possible to implement, this might just be the best way to solve this issue. There is no recommendation here, but a faulty recommendation isn't good either. And it does not look like a recommendation is being given, as well.

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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Zhukov wrote:EP: if the computer (for whatever reason) doesn't choose by default the attack you wish to use, is it really so hard to click the one you do want?
You're starting at the wrong point. If I have already brought up the attack dialog, and see which attack it has defaulted to, your logic makes perfect sense. However, the important thing to me is that I no longer know which attack it will default to before I even open the dialog - this causes a surprisingly large speed reduction and (at least for a while) causes me to attack with the wrong weapon occasionally.

It's a little thing, but the little things add up - if every little thing in the game had this much efficiency loss from the current state, it would be really awful.

Na'enthos: I quite like the idea of defaulting to no selected attack.
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Post by Zhukov »

Elvish Pillager wrote:You're starting at the wrong point. If I have already brought up the attack dialog, and see which attack it has defaulted to, your logic makes perfect sense. However, the important thing to me is that I no longer know which attack it will default to before I even open the dialog - this causes a surprisingly large speed reduction and (at least for a while) causes me to attack with the wrong weapon occasionally.
I just plain don't get that. Perhaps you decide which attack to use in different way then I do.

I also like Na'enthos' idea: no default selection. Sometimes less is more.

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Post by Dragon Master »

I'd like no attack selected when you open the attack box, I've already had it happen where the computer chooses a stupid attack and I quickly click attack thinking the computer would choose the obvious attack. Messes me up quite a bit

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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Zhukov wrote:I just plain don't get that. Perhaps you decide which attack to use in different way then I do.
I look at the enemy I want to attack, decide which attack out of the pool of all attacks of all my units that can reach it to attack with, and then move that unit, such that by the time I reach the attack dialog, I already have an attack in mind, and I have had time to subconsciously guess which attack the computer has defaulted to.
Zhukov wrote:I also like Na'enthos' idea: no default selection. Sometimes less is more.
Dragon Master wrote:I'd like no attack selected when you open the attack box, I've already had it happen where the computer chooses a stupid attack and I quickly click attack thinking the computer would choose the obvious attack. Messes me up quite a bit
Nice to see this kind of quick agreement on these forums. :)

Another problem situation: against a high-melee, no-ranged enemy with 20 HP left, the game picks 7-3 melee over 6-4 ranged.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.

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Post by JW »

Elvish Pillager wrote:Another problem situation: against a high-melee, no-ranged enemy with 20 HP left, the game picks 7-3 melee over 6-4 ranged.
Higher CTK.

btw, I think the default selection should be the attack that deals the most damage. This really would make the expected selection quite predictable and in most cases appropriate. I believe this is what we had before. It was perfect.

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