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turin
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Post by turin »

That history Disto linked to is not the up-to-date version I have on my home computer, and I don't think it is as up-to-date as the one I posted earlier.
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Post by irrevenant »

Steelclad Brian wrote:I think some of the new race-variants do do a good job of expanding the race rather than re-inventing it or changing it for the sake of changing it. The desert elves still revere nature and even have sacred trees, it's just in a desert such things are far more precious. They've adapted to their surroundings without losing the characteristics that made them elves in the first place.
Yeh, when I said that "generally" a race shouldn't be redefined, that's exactly the sort of exception I was thinking of; when a race is different as a natural response to a different setting (like the Desert Elves). I almost mentioned, but the post was getting long enough already.
Maeglin Dubh wrote:But here we're not discussing novels, but new factions; which is why I raised redefinition in the first place.
The principle applies to both. There's a concept called <something something> that you have a certain budget of 'strangeness' that you can use in a given story/game before you alienate your readers. 'Strangeness' is relative to the common understanding (which is why SF novels can get away with a lot of technobabble without explaining it; the foundations already exist). What that means in practice is; if you have a feature of the setting that is dramatically different than what people would expect the other features should be pretty similar. Otherwise it gets so alien that it alienates the reader. (Again I cite Dragonlance; familiar enough for the readers to sink their teeth into, but with a number of new elements such as Draconians and Kender to make it interesting).

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Post by Maeglin Dubh »

So, based on the last few novellettes we've thrown up for perusal, what is the consensus on continued racial/special development, as the beginning of the thread set out to discover?

((Sorry, I'd continue the discussion, but I'm leaving -tomorrow-, and still running around like a madman sorting all my gear and weapons.))
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Post by JW »

turin wrote:To me, the Desert Elves, the Chaos faction, most of the new human factions, and the Era of Myths (plus the Drakes) all seem to not really have a place in Wesnoth.
This is why I question your judgment on this matter. The Drakes are already official, so, um...

Besides, there's lots of undefined areas over the WOW, so how can you say that none of those things exist anywhere in the unknown? The WOW has more places than just the Old and Great continents.

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Post by turin »

JW wrote:This is why I question your judgment on this matter. The Drakes are already official, so, um...
The drakes are official, yes - and where are they in the WoW, exactly? Oh, that's right, they're on an island in the middle of nowhere, that is sinking into the ocean.. so where are they after the island sinks?

The drakes were added for multiplayer, and they only have a place in the WoW at all because Shade (the writer of TROW) felt we had to justify the drakes' presence in Wesnoth somehow...

The drakes could be made to fit in the WoW (unlike the other factions I listed), but they haven't been yet, IMHO. They're still just on an island in the middle of nowhere.
JW wrote:Besides, there's lots of undefined areas over the WOW, so how can you say that none of those things exist anywhere in the unknown? The WOW has more places than just the Old and Great continents.
The issue is not that they do not have a place spacewise - when we needed space for the IE, we created the Old Continent, and we can do that kind of thing again. The issue is fitting in with the feel created by the WoW as it stands, and I don't think most of these factions do this. This is obviously a very subjective thing.

Chaos - I don't think the nature of the WoW allows for demons, (no religion, remember?), which is clearly what the Chaos are.
Desert Elves - They fit, I guess. I wouldn't have so much of a problem with them if the world as it exists after the Cataclysm was more fleshed out. So you can say they are off the list.
Most of the new human factions - Most new human factions seem to me to lack a reason for being. They only exist because someone said, "lets make a new human faction!". And, notably, it is these factions that never seem to get art and go anywhere.
The Era of Myths - Basically, Wesnoth seems like a medieval fantasy setting, which I don't think vampires, werewolves, and angels fit into. And I think defining your own non-standard damage types is equivalent to declaring your non-presence in the WoW - if you cannot engage in a battle with the default factions, what are you doing there?

The main problem is... all of this is extremely subjective. I think that the EoM clashes horribly with the WoW as it stands; you obviously do not. It isn't something we can really argue over. But it is also, I think, very important to have a consistent WoW... so we are at an impasse. :?
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Post by JW »

I'm not arguing to put the EOM in the WOW.....yet. There's not enough story and the factions aren't even done yet. I think once the storylines (and the campaign) are done you'll see much higher quality. Of course, that's not going to be for some time either, so I also have time to change your mind. :wink:

As for the damage types, I don't really see this as a problem at all. You don't have the Default era factions fighting Imperial era factions other than in the custom Extended era. The Default factions are in a different place and time than the Imperial era, so if you can't have them fight each other logistically, why are they there?

The answer is to expand the story of the WOW.

Even if Wesnoth is primarily a medieval setting, medieval times was descriptive of a few hundred years of European history, not thousands of years of the history of an entire fantasy world.

Besides, didn't vampire and werewolf mythology start in medieval times? I actually don't know, but that seems right. btw, the Werewolves are changing into simply wolf-creatures I'm pretty sure.

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Post by Steelclad Brian »

turin wrote: The drakes are official, yes - and where are they in the WoW, exactly? Oh, that's right, they're on an island in the middle of nowhere, that is sinking into the ocean.. so where are they after the island sinks?

The drakes were added for multiplayer, and they only have a place in the WoW at all because Shade (the writer of TROW) felt we had to justify the drakes' presence in Wesnoth somehow...

The drakes could be made to fit in the WoW (unlike the other factions I listed), but they haven't been yet, IMHO. They're still just on an island in the middle of nowhere.
That still seems awfully arbitrary. How is "they live on an island, far away" any better or worse than "they live on a continent, far away, that we invented so they could be included".

There's way more precedent for the existance of the Drakes and way more campaign material covering their existance than the races of the Old Continent. Sorry to be disagreeable, but isn't the only distinction here really that the Sidhe received your blessing (and an appropriate piece of real estate) while the Drakes did not?

I think ultimately a major part of the appeal to BfW is that everyone can define their own gameworld, either through the scenarios they choose to play or through content creation. I understand the importance of keeping a coherent mainline setting and story, but outside of that the rampant creativity is really fun to watch and why I keep checking up on this game. For those who want to see their work become a part of the core of the game, I think that Under the Burning Suns is enough evidence that quality can trump conformity if people are willing to put in the effort.

Wesnoth's vague history, setting, and cultures has a certain utility - I'm not sure if there's any merit on defining it outside of the context of the content that has been created for it. Having a named river somewhere that never gets used just means that when someone else wants to stick something there, they have a river in their way.

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Post by Jester »

Acually turin, if you compare the WoW (damn I keep thinking warcraft...) to medieval times then you should certainly include the EOM.
People in the medievals didn't really know anything about the rest of the world except for their neighbouring country's (talking europe here, which is Wesnoth right?).
They thought the earth had a flat squarish form, that you would fall off if you came to close to the edge.
As I said , they knew nothing about the other mysterious places in the world called India or China or South Africa (they didn't even call them this I believe). They thought the people who lived there were all (off course) of god's creation, but not human.
For example in India lived the people with dog heads. And a little further lived people with one big foot with which they could run very fast and they often used it as an unbrella (yes, their feet).

So you see, if Wesnoth is to be compared with medieval Europe (which you claim it to) then it wouldn't be that strange to have an Era with legendary factions.

And yes, the werewolves are just going to be wolf-man-thingy's... just need a new name...
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Post by Na'enthos »

Er.. WINR? Or rather.. Wesnoth is not a mirror of the Medieval period. Nor is it based upon beliefs, myths and superstitions of people from that period.

That said, I also agree (subjectively) with Turin in that Chaos and EoM seem to fall outside the scope of the WoW. Especially Chaos.
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Post by Noyga »

turin wrote:Chaos - I don't think the nature of the WoW allows for demons, (no religion, remember?), which is clearly what the Chaos are.
And ? Demons not necessarily have something to do with religion ...
Unlike the angels that are more Judeo-Christan-oriented, the concept is present in a lot of cultures.
And some are already used in some campaigns (where religion is not present).
Some are present in the Imperial Era too, Efreets (that are present in the Kedari Ffaction) are a specific type of demon presnet in the middle east-culture.

Btw, like the undead they don't need to have a particular area on the WoW.
They would leave on the underground and might appear from time to time anywhere on the surface.

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Post by irrevenant »

Maeglin Dubh wrote:So, based on the last few novellettes we've thrown up for perusal, what is the consensus on continued racial/special development, as the beginning of the thread set out to discover?
I would imagine, like everything else in Wesnoth, if a decent number of developers decide that a faction should be official, then it becomes official and gets shipped with Wesnoth.

Factions that haven't been accepted as official can still be developed but they don't officially exist in Wesnoth. Kind of like the status of the Star Trek novels...

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Post by Ranger M »

Steelclad Brian wrote:That still seems awfully arbitrary. How is "they live on an island, far away" any better or worse than "they live on a continent, far away, that we invented so they could be included".

There's way more precedent for the existance of the Drakes and way more campaign material covering their existance than the races of the Old Continent. Sorry to be disagreeable, but isn't the only distinction here really that the Sidhe received your blessing (and an appropriate piece of real estate) while the Drakes did not?
As far as I can tell there has always been a land in the west which the westfolk came from in Wesnoth, before the imperial era, and then the imperial era was put on it to fill it up.

Also, I look forward to the drakes finding a place (something that me and Turin disagree on, I like them and he doesn't), but finding them one is hard. As for their history ofter their island sinks, I assume that they spread out and settle in areas (In IoA they end up there for this reason, or at least they will once I have written that scenario).

and as for mentiones of drakes and IE in campaigns, IE currently has two campaigns, one which features maurauders, Lavinians, Sidhe (and maybe others, I haven't played it yet) and the other Arenidans, orcs (will be the gladiator ones when they are made) undead, bandits, sidhe, and is going to mention maurauders, frost elves and drakes. By the end of these two the only race without a mention in IE will be the kedri/Aiyira (depending on what happens to them)
JW wrote:As for the damage types, I don't really see this as a problem at all. You don't have the Default era factions fighting Imperial era factions other than in the custom Extended era. The Default factions are in a different place and time than the Imperial era, so if you can't have them fight each other logistically, why are they there?
Actually, IE's history extends at least into 300YW (300 years after the founding of wesnoth), although I think I remember it going as far as 500/600YW (I don't have time to check the latest right now)

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Post by fmunoz »

Why people want to include its races in Wesnoth timeline & story?
Just use your own... create your fantasy world/dimension/universe so you will have no constrains about what you want to do.
You can borrow things&events from Wesnoth story and tweak and change them at will, adding things, people. races and your own ideas.

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Post by turin »

So much stuff to reply to... If I tried, this post would go on forever. It might even do that if I just reply to some stuff.
JW wrote:As for the damage types, I don't really see this as a problem at all. You don't have the Default era factions fighting Imperial era factions other than in the custom Extended era. The Default factions are in a different place and time than the Imperial era, so if you can't have them fight each other logistically, why are they there?
First of all, my understanding of the EOM is that it is in a place that the default factions COULD reach, and in fact would reach on a regular basis.

Apparently, I see the damage types as much more important than you do. To me, saying the faction operates under different damage types is like saying is in a different world with different laws of physics.
Steelclad Brian wrote:There's way more precedent for the existance of the Drakes and way more campaign material covering their existance than the races of the Old Continent.
Well... The only campaigns that touch on the Drakes are TROW (which has them land briefly on the island) and FtF (which is based on drakes trying to get back to the island - but I have other issues with FtF, names it seems to take place in a time in Wesnoth's history that doesn't exist.) The campaigns that touch on the Old Continent are TROW (it gets mention as the source of the Wesfolk, and how the Wesfolk came to the Green Isle because the OC was overcrowded), FOS (takes place on the OC) and IOA (takes place on the OC). Doesn't seem like more material to me...
Steelclad Brian wrote:Sorry to be disagreeable, but isn't the only distinction here really that the Sidhe received your blessing (and an appropriate piece of real estate) while the Drakes did not?
The real distinction is that the Sidhe are in a land with other factions they can interact with. The drakes are by themselves on an island. And the history of the Sidhe is very fleshed out.
Steelclad Brian wrote:Wesnoth's vague history, setting, and cultures has a certain utility - I'm not sure if there's any merit on defining it outside of the context of the content that has been created for it. Having a named river somewhere that never gets used just means that when someone else wants to stick something there, they have a river in their way.
You're basing this on the erroneous idea that there are no campaigns taking place on the OC... ;)
Jester wrote:Acually turin, if you compare the WoW (damn I keep thinking warcraft...) to medieval times then you should certainly include the EOM.
People in the medievals didn't really know anything about the rest of the world except for their neighbouring country's (talking europe here, which is Wesnoth right?).
They thought the earth had a flat squarish form, that you would fall off if you came to close to the edge.
As I said , they knew nothing about the other mysterious places in the world called India or China or South Africa (they didn't even call them this I believe). They thought the people who lived there were all (off course) of god's creation, but not human.
For example in India lived the people with dog heads. And a little further lived people with one big foot with which they could run very fast and they often used it as an unbrella (yes, their feet).

So you see, if Wesnoth is to be compared with medieval Europe (which you claim it to) then it wouldn't be that strange to have an Era with legendary factions.
I don't know about you, but I see a difference between what people believe and what there actually was... and I completely fail to see how the medieval belief in a bunch of wierd semi-humans means that it is OK to have a faction of wierd semi-humans...

It all boils down to this - Wesnoth, so far, is basically about humans who have some characteristic changed. Elves are men with a greater sense of beauty and wisdom. Dwarves are men with exaggerated senses of honor and possessiveness. Orcs are men with less rational control of themselves. Werewolves are... men who are part wolf. :?
Noyga wrote:Some are present in the Imperial Era too, Efreets (that are present in the Kedari Ffaction) are a specific type of demon presnet in the middle east-culture.
At this point, I might as well clarify something... there are two levels to the IE. One is the three main factions - Marauders, Lavinians, and Sidhe. They are the only ones I am really referring to when I said IE. The outer level, which has Aragwaithi, Arendians, and Kedari, is not solidified. The Kedari and Aragwaithi will probably be removed eventually, and the Arendians will eventually get in the inner level, but they're not there yet. Basically - don't base any of your arguments about the IE on the Aragwaithi or Kedari, because neither of them is really in the IE...
irrevenant wrote:I would imagine, like everything else in Wesnoth, if a decent number of developers decide that a faction should be official, then it becomes official and gets shipped with Wesnoth.
Just a side note - this is the completely wrong way to think of it, from what I understand. Factions are not going to be added, eras are. Default is big enough already. (This is ignoring stuff like the desert elves, which were added for a campaign and are not even playable in MP.)






fmunoz wrote:Why people want to include its races in Wesnoth timeline & story?
Just use your own... create your fantasy world/dimension/universe so you will have no constrains about what you want to do.
You can borrow things&events from Wesnoth story and tweak and change them at will, adding things, people. races and your own ideas.
My point.... I'm just think the IE will go better in the WoW...
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Post by Cuyo Quiz »

I remember a passing commentary about the sinking isle, and how the Drakes seemed intelligent/organized enough to get out of it when it gets too small. This is reason and explanation enough for me, taking into account the societal descriptions of the units.

This could be also a great reason for them not appearing much, they are very, very, very occupied rebuilding their society and striking a deal with the Saurians (which, knowing them, would be a war for land until they came to realize how complementary/simmilar they are. Drake Warlords can't be dense when the fate of their race is in danger, and cunning Saurians may see a lot of use for the skills and strenghts of Drakes after the Orcs/Nagas leave them without much allies).

Anyway, had to say it since the Drake discussion kept going. You may return to your scheduled programming.
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