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JW
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Post by JW »

Alks wrote:Besides, I still have my Phantoms on the desk, and still working on them (though mundial and novel put them aside). When I finish them, I will try to follow JW and make era of my own(if someone wants to discourage me, do it now).
No discouragement. It's just hard to do and is usually discouraging enough on it's own. :wink: I almost gave up a few times and didn't even work on the Shifters for a month or two but then came back to the project.

Setting my sights higher than just 1 faction really made me propel myself to work more quickly as a matter of fact.

Side note: I think people make elves more than any other species (thanks Jester) because after humans they are most easy to associate with.
Last edited by JW on June 11th, 2006, 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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turin
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Post by turin »

Dragon Master wrote:Also, with so many elf races, your losing originality. Hmm...I can't think of a new race for all these units, I know! I'll make more elves, elves are cool after all. [/probablequote]

I'd much rather see a totally new concept than a different spin on an old one.
And I'd much rather see neither than either of them. That's the difference between us, eh? ;)


But if given the choice, I'd go for the different spin on an old, good idea than the "totally new" concept that is really nothing more than a ripoff of something other than "standard fantasy".
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Alks
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Post by Alks »

JW wrote: Side note: I think people make elves more than any other species (thanks Jester) because after humans they are most easy to associate with.
Or simply because they LIKE them more.

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Ranger M
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Post by Ranger M »

JW wrote:So that makes what,

10 human
5 elf
2 orc
1 dwarf
1 werewolf
1 drake/saurian factions,
Almost, but not quite

Complete list (including faction names, ones that you missed, and incomplete factions/factions which will be made, but are on the side untill another is finished):

13 Humans
:arrow: Loyalists
:arrow: Lavinians
:arrow: Marauders
:arrow: Aragwaithi
:arrow: Kedari
:arrow: Arendans
:arrow: Shifters
:arrow: Kalifa
:arrow: Celtic
:arrow: Chaos
:arrow: Celestials (mostly human)
:arrow: Dardoni
:arrow: Outlaws

5 Elves

:arrow: Wood Elves
:arrow: Dark Elves
:arrow: Desert Elves
:arrow: Sidhe
:arrow: High Elves

3 Orcs, Trolls & Goblins
:arrow: Northerners
:arrow: Steppe Orcs
:arrow: Orces Gentorum

1 Drakes
1 Saurians
1 Dwarves
1Mermen
1 Werewolves
1 Nagas (there is a faction, but it's as big as the Mermen, and not in any era I can think of off of the top of my head)
1 Elementals
Last edited by Ranger M on June 11th, 2006, 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Steelclad Brian
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Post by Steelclad Brian »

The million-and-one elf variations problem is one that crops up in a lot of Tolkienesque games. The most common problems with elvish variations in my opinion are:

1) So many variations of elves have been proposed in fantasy that it is very difficult to create anything really fresh or new. Even people actively trying to create something different inevitably step on someone else's toes. I mean how many different variations of the Dark Elf concept are there? Or Wild Elf/Wood Elf? Or High Elf? Those three, in fact are the most abused and are really, really tedious.

It's gotten to the point where I think people should avoid it as a matter of course as a cliche of the genre. Wesnoth's elves are forgivable because this is a fantasy game first and having generic fantasy races is understandable and fine.

2) People use elves as short-hand for "fantastic humanoid race" and slowly blur the distinction of what makes them elves in the first place. I mean take the version of the "Dark Elves" that are floating around. Why are these creatures even elves? They have none of the characteristics people associate with elves, and could just as effectively be human or another culture or something even more creative.

The only reason to make them elves is because the creator is copying the Drow and Warhammer-style Dark Elves pretty shamelessly. In the Drow and Warhammer universes, it makes sense to call these guys Elves. They're a seperated group driven off that developed it's own culture and sits in opposition to the normal elves. The problem is that by including these dark elves, you also have to steal their back story that they are elves driven off, which in turn adds backstory to the normal elves and makes everything more generic.

I think it's perfectly alright to create variations on certain races, but I really dislike the tendency to just wholesale import races from other gameworlds into Wesnoth, particularly when it is done with no rhyme or reason or respect for the world you're importing them into. Variations on races are cool, but the number of subspecies of elves is starting to defy reason and some of them are such obvious copy-pastes that it's hard to take them seriously.

One thing I think Wesnoth does well is establish that the races are not just generic armies but also represent distinct cultures and nations in the way they are called "Northerners", "Loyalists", "Rebels". It gives them context. I think people who intend to introduce variations of races should try to do that as well.

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Noyga
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Post by Noyga »

13 humans, you forgot the outlaws :)

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Ranger M
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Post by Ranger M »

Noyga wrote:13 humans, you forgot the outlaws :)
*hits self on head*

And me being the one whole really like them as well.

(edited above post to reflect this)

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JW
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Post by JW »

Alks wrote:
JW wrote: Side note: I think people make elves more than any other species (thanks Jester) because after humans they are most easy to associate with.
Or simply because they LIKE them more.
This is one and the same.

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Post by Dragon Master »

Steelclad hit the nail right on the head, I fully agree with him.

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Post by kiet »

Seems that humans rules,as they do today in our world :D

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turin
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Post by turin »

Steelclad Brian wrote:One thing I think Wesnoth does well is establish that the races are not just generic armies but also represent distinct cultures and nations in the way they are called "Northerners", "Loyalists", "Rebels". It gives them context. I think people who intend to introduce variations of races should try to do that as well.
Well, depending on which new faction you're talking about, this has been done well to varying degrees. I think it has mostly been done well with the Imperial Era, although even I don't really know what the Arendians or the Aragwaithi are.


The main problem seems to me to be people just wanting to make a faction. People shouldn't want to make a faction, they should want to make a particular faction, if you see what I mean.


------


BTW, I once read something about LotR (:P) that said different races in fantasy are supposed to represent different aspects of human nature. So, that's why in fantasy you have men, elves, dwarves, orcs, and undead (and in LotR hobbits). And so, is hard to get variants of any of these but men, and to a lesser extent elves, because they are already variants of men with added characteristics to emphasize the variation (immortal, really short and bearded, bestial, and really evil, respectively).

This also deals with what JW said, about elves being variantized because they are, after men, easiest to connect with. But I think dwarves, orcs, and undead could all be variantized, although not as easily as elves or men - and they all have been, at least in theory.

The above is also the reason why I think drakes, saurians, and the like are basically impossible to variantize. (And the reason why I really dislike the drake faction.)


--------


Seeing as how we have all of these human variants, I think it might be possible to take some (probably the ones that don't really have a home in the World of Wesnoth) and start a new fantasy world, completely unrelated to the WoW. Any takers?
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And I hate stupid people.
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Noyga
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Post by Noyga »

+1 Humans ... The Slavons too ;)

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Post by Noy »

Steelclad Brian wrote:
2) People use elves as short-hand for "fantastic humanoid race" and slowly blur the distinction of what makes them elves in the first place. I mean take the version of the "Dark Elves" that are floating around. Why are these creatures even elves? They have none of the characteristics people associate with elves, and could just as effectively be human or another culture or something even more creative.

The only reason to make them elves is because the creator is copying the Drow and Warhammer-style Dark Elves pretty shamelessly. In the Drow and Warhammer universes, it makes sense to call these guys Elves. They're a seperated group driven off that developed it's own culture and sits in opposition to the normal elves. The problem is that by including these dark elves, you also have to steal their back story that they are elves driven off, which in turn adds backstory to the normal elves and makes everything more generic.

I agree, henceforth they shall become Romulans.

Problem solved.

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JW
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Post by JW »

What you said I find completely true, turin. About specific factions and also about connecting with them.

I don't see a need to start a new non-wow world simply for factions that don't yet have a home. If they progress enough they will find a place in the world just like anything else. (The EOM is pushing its way into your subconscious as I type.)

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Post by joshudson »

As for dwarf, it might be possible to create a variant of them.

Attributes of dwarf:

Long-lived but not immortal (storyline-only)
Honor-bound
Hardy
Not generally slowed by burden
Fiercely loyal
Good at craftsmanship
Preferred the physical arts to magic
Not slowed down by terrain

Missing sensible attributes:
Leadership
Marksman
Dread? (scary in battle)
First-strike (if the unit in particular would call for it)
Potentially, a fast dwarf (sacrifice armor for speed)

Have fun. Be creative, there is something here for a second faction.
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