Race discussion---

Post by **turin** » June 17th, 2006, 4:07 pm

Dragon Master wrote:This arguement is going nowhere. We've established the fact that you dislike drakes and novel race ideas, get over it.

True - but what exactly did you expect? The topic is, after all, about 'Race Discussion'... that's rather broad.

It seemed bound to enter into the area of why I hate drakes.

Post by **freim** » June 17th, 2006, 4:08 pm

turin wrote: I make statements, I don't expect people to agree with them. I would in fact be very surprised if many people did... getting people to agree with me is not my intent.

If the point isn't to make a description of WoW consistent with mainline which can be used as an asset for campaigns, etc, then what is the point?

If the point is only to push your view on others contrary to what is endorsed by the dev team as a whole then this will most likely just create confusion and contention among those who are looking for "official" information about WoW for their campaign, which would be counter-productive for all of us. You really need to stop beating the dead horse on these issues and just get over it.

Post by **turin** » June 17th, 2006, 4:31 pm

freim wrote:If the point isn't to make a description of WoW consistent with mainline which can be used as an asset for campaigns, etc, then what is the point?

Put simply, I don't think the official version of the WoW is any good, and although I am fine with improving it, I am going to put the majority of my effort into my own version of the WoW, which will probably not be consistent with the official one (although I will try to make it be), unless I see a convincing reason that the stuff I disagree with is acceptable. Which I haven't yet. I am not forcing my opinion on anyone, because (thankfully) I have no authority.

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So far, the only argument I have seen for why drakes are not absurd is that they have been in Wesnoth for a long time... and a main argument for why other factions are not bad is that drakes are not bad.

Post by **freim** » June 17th, 2006, 4:58 pm

turin wrote: So far, the only argument I have seen for why drakes are not absurd is that they have been in Wesnoth for a long time... and a main argument for why other factions are not bad is that drakes are not bad.

The reasons are simple:
1. The majority of the dev team likes the drakes
2. In a typical* fantasy setting like Wesnoth the drakes are not absurd by any standard. Wesnoth has a (low magic) fantasy setting, not a historical mediaval setting.

* As Dave put it in a recent interview: "We do have a vision for what the world of Wesnoth is like though -- and Wesnoth is a world of ancient-era weaponry, with a little magic. Of Elves and Dwarves and Orcs. Very much inspired by Tolkien. I actually originally chose this setting because my focus was on technical excellence -- writing a good, solid engine -- not on creating a new fantasy world. I decided to stick with a very well-known, proven theme, figuring I couldn't go wrong with it.".

Ranger M · Post by **Ranger M** » June 17th, 2006, 5:03 pm

turin wrote:So far, the only argument I have seen for why drakes are not absurd is that they have been in Wesnoth for a long time... and a main argument for why other factions are not bad is that drakes are not bad.

Possibly put it this way, in most fantasy storeys/games "dragons of old" tend to dissapear for, well... No apparent reason. The world isn't magical enough, or they went west to dance (this truly was a funny one for me), etc. I was recently pleasantly surprised to find that in one book a read, an actual natural disaster was given for the reason for the dissapearence of dragons, and there were actually survivors (although they were young larva dragons and hadn't hatched from their cocoons, or hadn't spun them yet, which is why they survived). Seeing this (about a year ago) was also only a few months after I re-discovered Wesnoth (and therefore discovered the drakes for the first time) I soon came to use the reason that dragons (which I read somewhere used to be much more, common) had become the drakes as my excuse for their almost total dissapearance. I kind of like this one (always worked for me), and if somebody took the time to flesh out the drakish history (or even wrote a campaign) I'm sure that this could be used as a basis for a good reason, in Turin's veiw, for their existance.

Of course, most people settle for the fact that it added a new way of playing wesnoth, with low defence, two big weaknesses, high HP, high movement, and a fire attack for all on the ranged.

Post by **turin** » June 17th, 2006, 5:57 pm

freim wrote:The reasons are simple:
1. The majority of the dev team likes the drakes
2. In a typical* fantasy setting like Wesnoth the drakes are not absurd by any standard. Wesnoth has a (low magic) fantasy setting, not a historical mediaval setting.

I've never claimed it had a historical medieval setting... I just disagree that drakes are not absurd in a typical fantasy setting.

Anyway, the idea that drakes are descended from dragons seems absurd in Wesnoth because dragons still exist. In fact, in the only campaign where you fight drakes (TROW), you slay a dragon three scenarios later.

Jester · Post by **Jester** » June 17th, 2006, 6:09 pm

turin wrote: I've never claimed it had a historical medieval setting... I just disagree that drakes are not absurd in a typical fantasy setting.

Then please define typical medieval fantasy for us...

Post by **turin** » June 17th, 2006, 6:09 pm

Jester wrote:
turin wrote: I've never claimed it had a historical medieval setting... I just disagree that drakes are not absurd in a typical fantasy setting.
Then please define typical medieval fantasy for us...

Wesnoth before drakes.

But basically, the rules are no part-human-part-non-human creatures. No centaurs, satyrs, werewolves, drakes, etc. I associate those more with Greek mythology.

Jester · Post by **Jester** » June 17th, 2006, 6:10 pm

turin wrote:
Jester wrote: Then please define typical medieval fantasy for us...
Wesnoth before drakes.

And now a serious attempt please...

Post by **freim** » June 17th, 2006, 6:18 pm

turin wrote: But basically, the rules are no part-human-part-non-human creatures. No centaurs, satyrs, werewolves, drakes, etc. I associate those more with Greek mythology.

Nonsense. More or less whatever you can dig out of a DnD source book can be justified for a fantasy setting like in Wesnoth. What you are talking about sounds more like a folklore/medieval hybrid setting.

Post by **Noyga** » June 17th, 2006, 6:27 pm

turin wrote:Anyway, the idea that drakes are descended from dragons seems absurd in Wesnoth because dragons still exist. In fact, in the only campaign where you fight drakes (TROW), you slay a dragon three scenarios later.

Humans are descended from some monkeys, do monkeys still exist ?

Post by **turin** » June 17th, 2006, 6:28 pm

Noyga wrote:
turin wrote:Anyway, the idea that drakes are descended from dragons seems absurd in Wesnoth because dragons still exist. In fact, in the only campaign where you fight drakes (TROW), you slay a dragon three scenarios later.
Humans are descended from some monkeys, do monkeys still exist ?

Huh? No they're not; evolution claims that humans and monkeys are descended from a common ancestor...

Cuyo Quiz · Post by **Cuyo Quiz** » June 17th, 2006, 6:36 pm

Seeing how a Lancer can kill one of the more contemporanean dragons in Wesnoth, i don't think the actual dragons are that great. I stand by the chance that among history, dragonkin suffered many breaks and general dwarfism (Drakes were native to an island too right?, a sinking one even, which gave them less land from time to time, thus dwarfed dragonlings sound good).

I didn't even see wesnothian dragons like real dragons at all, so this mindset is easy for me.

Ranger M · Post by **Ranger M** » June 17th, 2006, 6:37 pm

turin wrote:
Noyga wrote: Humans are descended from some monkeys, do monkeys still exist ?
Huh? No they're not; evolution claims that humans and monkeys are descended from a common ancestor...

Humans and monkeys share a common ancestor, although in theory it would be possible for that ancestor to still exist (if conditions in an area where they lived didn't change, and they were perfectly suited for that enviroment, and therefore didn't evolve). And because this is fantasy, that could be said of the dragons if neccisary. Also take into account the fact that dragons live... forever? (not sure about wesnoth dragons) and therefore if a sub race of dragons did evolve, which lived, died, and therefore reproduced much more often (or even some dragons lived died and reproduced more often for some reason) then they would evolve faster, and so after a prolonged period of time they could, theoretically, look completely different.

However, that is not what I said, I did say dragons get reduced in number (not killed completely) and I did say that the dragons (not neccisarily all of them) became the drakes. So both of you are both right and wrong

.

Post by **turin** » June 17th, 2006, 6:40 pm

But why would a dragon devolve into a drake? it seems like a downgrade to me. Wouldn't you rather be a dragon than a drake? So how would a drake evolve from a dragon?

Anyway, I don't really care about the origin of drakes... that's not really the point.