Race discussion---

[Steelclad Brian]

Because they remind me not of anything fantasy-like, but rather of aliens you meet in movies like Star Wars... I've seen a lot more lizard-people in sci-fi than in fantasy.

I can think of at least 2 explicit cases of dragon-men in extremely popular fantasy works* - I can think of none in science fiction. This is getting ridiculious. Why should Wesnoth restrict itself to fantasy cliche, anyway?

In a generic fantasy world, it is OK to do that, with elves and orcs. The average player who has read LotR, or played Warcraft, will know what elves and orcs are, and their general traits (elves love nature; orcs are near-feral maniacs). But this is not true with new races, so when you make they you need to work harder to justify their inclusion. And some races just won't work, no matter how hard you try. (I haven't seen any of these seriously proposed yet.)

While I believe this is reasonable, I do not believe your application of it is. Werewolves are conceptually very well known and I do not believe that a random player would be better able to intuit the military properties of orcs or elves than werewolves. This goes for the drakes as well - they are clearly a humanoid variation on dragons. They breathe fire, they fly, and they're big. All of these things are readily communicated in their art. Their name makes their dragon-based origins apparent.

I don't see how you can say that either the Drakes or Werewolf factions are too exotic or arcane for the average player when they are based on cultural concepts far older and better known than that of the elves or orcs.

*Draconians from Dragonlance and Dragonkin from World of Warcraft.

[Cuyo Quiz]

Off-Topic has a thread started by JW. Users Forum have a thread started by turin.

They both bash stuff in it non-stop.

*gears movement*

You are all sad, sad apples.

[UDD]

And my preference for racial variants is well-grounded. Existing races already have background stories that work well, and with standard fantasy races like elves and orcs it is already understood what their background is.

I don't think that's what you mean, but this sentence implies that in every game that includes traditional elves/orcs, they have the exact same history. (which is absurd, obviously)
I'd consider revising that sentence. Or atleast explaining what it was that you meant.

[Jester]

(If you want to have space aliens in Wesnoth... you better have a backstory written by Shakespeare.)

lol, that would be kinda silly anyway and put fantasy into sci-fi. I actually imagine that it could be done...but why? (Like I said, I'm a good story teller so I could probably write them in, but my art would be s*** so they'd never make it. XD)

Well, actually me and some friends plan to start making a cyberpunk-fantasy world (play-by-post, like Santharia) this summer. I had a post about this in the GDsection.
I think it can be done and that it'd be cool.

Bah, Shifters have a backstory. Celestials have a pretty good one in the works, as to the Aberrations. The Werewolves and Vamps need to be fleshed out more (in the works), the Undead are fine, and the Elementals are kinda like Undead.

Yes, I am working on it.

[Ranger M]

races/units that have no description or story reason for being in wesnoth:

EOM factions

Bah, Shifters have a backstory. Celestials have a pretty good one in the works, as to the Aberrations. The Werewolves and Vamps need to be fleshed out more (in the works), the Undead are fine, and the Elementals are kinda like Undead.

yes, but he, I assume, doesn't know it. I only included it because so far, without any backstory, he wouldn't approve of them, however he is reserving judgement until he has heard your promised backstorys. I'm willing to be that if you hadn't promised to make an attempt then he would disapprove of them.


BTW, the solution to all of this seems incredibably simple. If a concencus about the oragin of the drakes, etc was reached then this argument would dissapear, so the solution, which really should be discussed, is coming up with one.

[Darth Fool]

BTW, the solution to all of this seems incredibably simple. If a concencus about the oragin of the drakes, etc was reached then this argument would dissapear, so the solution, which really should be discussed, is coming up with one.

Well, I understand all the confusion about the origins of the drakes, afterall their origins have been muddled in centuries of obfuscation. During the time of anarzoth the Arch-mage Keladil was forced to leave the council of the great mages. It has long been assumed that this was because of his experimenting with immortality, a theory reinforced by his eventual transformation into an arch-lich whose vile deads need not be repeated here. Recent excavations on the sunken isle of Morogor have brought to light many new artifacts which bring in to doubt several long held ascertions. Tablets from the island reveal that Keladil spent much time on the island engaged in magical experimentation on a local species of lizard both before and after his exile. It appears that the goal of these experiments was originally to create a subserviant slave work force, but that after his exile he began transforming the slave race into an army to defend against any attacks the council might make. His fears of the council were not well placed, as at that time the council had no strong leader, as evidenced by those few records from that time that survived the great firestorm during the War of Cousins. The power he invested in the warriors of his slave race, the progenitors of the drakes, was a far greater threat, and apparently their rebellion finally forced Keladil to flee the island. It is not hard to believe that his search for a more controllable army is what led him down the path of researching unlife.

The rebels had a brief period of peace while their leader still lived, however he died but three short years after the rebellion under mysterious circumstances. The drakes fell into civil war and may well have destroyed themselves, but for a charismatic leader who arose among them and insisted that they were the descendants of dragons and should take their rightful place in the world. Speaking of the experiments of Keladil was forbidden and soon forgotten by all but those who had served as scribes to Keladil. Though never speaking of it again, they recorded the history on tablets that it might not be forgotten. They felt safe in doing so, as most drakes were illiterate. What happened to these scribes is not recorded, but it seems that they feared greatly being discovered by the Enforcers of the Word who were tasked with finding and eliminating all those who spoke of the blasphemy of Keladil.

Well, someone is pounding at the door. I must be going now. Oh dear, this is not good. Where did I put that scroll of invisibility.

Unfortunately, I can not say more about this at this time, as Gaphalion has apparently gone on a rather sudden and unannounced trip and has not communicated to me since.

[freim]

Gaphalion, historian
...

Sounds good to me.

[turin]

According to this, being sentinent is direct human trait?

Being are usually seen as sentient as compared to humans, yes...

Also IMO, You don't give new races a chance. You would much rather have a race being proposed through a backstory than through statistics or through a tree. At least with that you have something playable.

Huh? Yes, I would much rather have a race proposed through a backstory. I fail to see how the rest of your paragraph follows.

You've also basically said that when a player encounters a new race, their first thoughts are "What are these things doing here? There's no reason for them to exist! I'll have to look up in the local history and find out if they are believable.." This would often be called curiousity, but you've said it like people are naturally opposed to new things.

I believe they are... maybe you aren't. I don't know. It's tangential to my point anyway.

If you're going to ask "Why do they exist in this world?" well, that question can apply to any race. I could easily say that humans shouldn't be in Wesnoth because they are like elves with short ears or tall dwarves, or even nagas/mermen with feet.

Sure, you could... I find it hard to believe anyone would...

I can think of at least 2 explicit cases of dragon-men in extremely popular fantasy works* - I can think of none in science fiction. This is getting ridiculious. Why should Wesnoth restrict itself to fantasy cliche, anyway?

That was not an argument, just an observation I made. I don't read popular fantasy works, and I was just stating the fact that when I first saw drakes, they looked more sci-fi than fantasy to me. If you disagree, fine.

I don't think that's what you mean, but this sentence implies that in every game that includes traditional elves/orcs, they have the exact same history. (which is absurd, obviously)
I'd consider revising that sentence. Or atleast explaining what it was that you meant.

Err, good point...

Basically, when you see an elf in a fantasy game, you know that it is a nature-loving, probably bow-using, tall, immortal man-like creature. When you see an orc, you know that it is a feral, violent, semi-rational creature who hates elves. But when you see, for example, a drake, all you know is they are somehow related to dragons. You know nothing about how they would behave (i.e., nature-loving, violent, honorable, etc)...

{an attempt at a drake history}

I don't believe that making up a bunch of names and putting them in a history together solves anything... none of the names you mentioned have any connection to Wesnoth history.

[freim]

{an attempt at a drake history}

I don't believe that making up a bunch of names and putting them in a history together solves anything... none of the names you mentioned have any connection to Wesnoth history.

Now you're just being an ass. I suggest ignoring turins ramblings and work on making this fit into WoW. I think it was a good description which explains the origin of the drakes in a decent way. This way we can make this thread into something usefull again.

[Alks]

{an attempt at a drake history}

I don't believe that making up a bunch of names and putting them in a history together solves anything... none of the names you mentioned have any connection to Wesnoth history.

Don't become what you hate, Turin. And find sometimes a minute for reading something that doesn't follow 100% your vision. This 'bunch of names' can be easily expanded and made into a story.

[Ranger M]

{an attempt at a drake history}

I don't believe that making up a bunch of names and putting them in a history together solves anything... none of the names you mentioned have any connection to Wesnoth history.

True, but it is the first attempt, and I'm sure that it could be tied in. However I do agree that it would be better if the drakes had some more prominant role at some point in Wesnoth's history. What this description did was take a guy from wesnoth, and then never mention wesnoth again, if the drakes did encounter the wesnothians directly in a way that led on from this then it would be better (basically, it needs to be a little longer detailing more than it currently does in my opinion)

however, this is going to lead onto the drakes having to actually do something in wesnoths history, so either before, after, or in between current events documented in campaigns (not close enough to interfear this the story any more than they are currently mentioned, if they are) they are going to have to do something, probably invade an area (the northerners and dwarves maybe, their history is the least full compared to the rest, so a drake invasion would A, spice it up, and B not interfear with any of the other campaigns, especially if done in a completely different time to SotBE, scepter of fire and northern re-birth)

[joshudson]

Well, I've always had the idea that the farther back you go in Wesnoth history, the more primitive and bloodthirsty they are.

In my campaign (probably set the farthest back in Wesnoth history), they don't talk, they just attack.

Or maybe, they just don't know any human languages yet. Same difference.

[JW]

That was not an argument, just an observation I made. I don't read popular fantasy works, and I was just stating the fact that when I first saw drakes, they looked more sci-fi than fantasy to me. If you disagree, fine.

Drakes are definitely more fantasy than sci-fi.

I don't believe that making up a bunch of names and putting them in a history together solves anything... none of the names you mentioned have any connection to Wesnoth history.

Hmm...I may be wrong, but isn't this exactly how you create story history??
(How did Konrad, Delfador, et al get created?)
(How is the IE histroy being created?? )

[Zhukov]

{an attempt at a drake history}

I have no real problems with the drakes, and I never have. However, that story just doesn't cut it for me, despite being well written. It basically boils down to "powerful mage creates race of combat-capable creatures." It's hard to find anything less original then that.

[Dragon Master]

Do drakes really need a full history storyline like that? I've always thought of drakes as weaker versions of dragons, in Wesnoth I always thought drakes were just the remnants of an ancient draconic race. I agree with Zhukov, I don't like the storyline given to them.