Race discussion---

[Cuyo Quiz]

There is no point.

This is User's Forum, the offspring of Off-Topic, Wesnoth and human grouping.

[Jester]

But why would a dragon devolve into a drake? it seems like a downgrade to me. Wouldn't you rather be a dragon than a drake? So how would a drake evolve from a dragon?

Survival of the fittest. Large animals are more likely to become extict because they have a much harder time adapting to a sudden change in the envirement. Dragons came across a problem in their surroundings concerning mating or food or whatever and Drakes were apparantly the perfect adaptation...
[/OT]

Turin, you still haven't answered my question.

[turin]

Turin, you still haven't answered my question.

Yes I did - I was editing an answer into my post when you replied to my joke...

But basically, the rules are no part-human-part-non-human creatures. No centaurs, satyrs, werewolves, drakes, etc. I associate those more with Greek mythology.

However, this does seem to rule out mermaids and nagas too (a fantasy world without mermaids and nagas would not suffer, but the game of Wesnoth would)... so perhaps it needs revision. I'll think on it.

[Jester]

Turin, you still haven't answered my question.

Yes I did - I was editing an answer into my post when you replied to my joke...

I see now.

But basically, the rules are no part-human-part-non-human creatures. No centaurs, satyrs, werewolves, drakes, etc. I associate those more with Greek mythology.

However, this does seem to rule out mermaids and nagas too (a fantasy world without mermaids and nagas would not suffer, but the game of Wesnoth would)... so perhaps it needs revision. I'll think on it.

Alright, then why is Germanic/Celtic mythology so much better that Greek mythology? Because that is where the Tolkien-fantasy is based upon.
(yes, I realize you were revising your definition)

[turin]

Alright, then why is Germanic/Celtic mythology so much better that Greek mythology? Because that is where the Tolkien-fantasy is based upon.
(yes, I realize you were revising your definition)

Simply because that is what Wesnoth is based on. If we had made a game based on Greek mythology, we would have had satyrs, centaurs, and stuff like that. But we didn't...

We do have mermaids, but IIRC the idea of a mermaid is fairly universal, whereas the idea of a centaur is confined to greek mythology.

[freim]

Simply because that is what Wesnoth is based on. If we had made a game based on Greek mythology, we would have had satyrs, centaurs, and stuff like that. But we didn't...

No it's not. at least not in the sense that it's restricted to Germanic/Celtic mythology alone. Wesnoth is inspired by a tolkien type fantasy setting, not conformant and restricted to the exact setting of Middle Earth.

In the case of the drakes: they play well, looks good, are well balanced and are generally adding to the overall gaming experience withouth beeing incompatible with the fantasy setting.

[turin]

No it's not. at least not in the sense that it's restricted to Germanic/Celtic mythology alone. Wesnoth is inspired by a tolkien type fantasy setting, not conformant and restricted to the exact setting of Middle Earth.

Didn't say it was... but I do hold that centaurs, satyrs, etc, would look out of place in Wesnoth. Do you disagree?

In the case of the drakes: they play well, looks good, are well balanced and are generally adding to the overall gaming experience withouth beeing incompatible with the fantasy setting.

I do not disagree with your first three points... and yet you keep repeating them.

[freim]

Didn't say it was... but I do hold that centaurs, satyrs, etc, would look out of place in Wesnoth. Do you disagree?

Yes I do. If they where given a decent background and they had quality gfx, well balanced and all that other stuff I have no problem with them being added. When that is said I think we can come up with something better than the rather boring clichè "drakes evolved from dragons" background. Just because we use a "traditional" fantasy setting don't mean we can't be a bit innovative and fresh.

[turin]

Didn't say it was... but I do hold that centaurs, satyrs, etc, would look out of place in Wesnoth. Do you disagree?

Yes I do. If they where given a decent background and they had quality gfx, well balanced and all that other stuff I have no problem with them being added.

Then this is where we disagree. How about this: is there anything you would say is out of place in Wesnoth, even if it has high quality background, graphics, balance, and "all that other stuff"?

When that is said I think we can come up with something better than the rather boring clichè "drakes evolved from dragons" background. Just because we use a "traditional" fantasy setting don't mean we can't be a bit innovative and fresh.

Well than let's go ahead and think that up... otherwise the drakes are still essentially a race added for multiplayer with no clear place in the WoW.

[Dragon Master]

Put simply, I don't think the official version of the WoW is any good, and although I am fine with improving it, I am going to put the majority of my effort into my own version of the WoW, which will probably not be consistent with the official one (although I will try to make it be), unless I see a convincing reason that the stuff I disagree with is acceptable. Which I haven't yet. I am not forcing my opinion on anyone, because (thankfully) I have no authority.

Wow, a few posts ago you said you didn't act like you owned Wesnoth, but this is a very VERY arrogant comment. So let me see, your going to make your own Wesnoth that basically excludes anything not remotely human? By doing this you've restricted anyone's ability to imagine things. I really can't tell what your problem with new races is. You seem to want a game like Wesnoth that's as historically accurate as possible. And also, people have been making convincing comments about drakes and other things you disagree with, you've just chosen to ignore them and twist words so that it sounds like "Drakes are here because they are cool". That IS one of the reasons we have drakes, but they are also here for many viable reasons.

[Elvish_Pillager]

...twist words so that it sounds like "Drakes are here because they are cool". That IS one of the reasons we have drakes, but they are also here for many viable reasons.

Actually, that is the exact original reason we have drakes - the devs thought that they'd be cool - and there's nothing wrong with that in itself. However, Turin seems to think that an internally consistent fantasy environment would be even more cool, so by all means, good luck to him.

[turin]

Wow, a few posts ago you said you didn't act like you owned Wesnoth, but this is a very VERY arrogant comment. So let me see, your going to make your own Wesnoth that basically excludes anything not remotely human? By doing this you've restricted anyone's ability to imagine things.

No - I've restricted what I, in my own personal version, am going to accept into the WoW. They are still free to create their new content, and, if it is good enough, get it official (over my dissenting vote, which isn't worth a whole lot anyway).

BTW, I doubt that "exclud[ing] anything not remotely human" is what you meant to say. I don't know what that would even mean.

I really can't tell what your problem with new races is. You seem to want a game like Wesnoth that's as historically accurate as possible.

Again, I am not against new races. It is just that I have high standards for what makes a good new race, and, obviously, they are very subjective.

I obviously don't want a historically accurate game. Otherwise I would demand that all non-human factions be removed...

And also, people have been making convincing comments about drakes and other things you disagree with, you've just chosen to ignore them and twist words so that it sounds like "Drakes are here because they are cool". That IS one of the reasons we have drakes, but they are also here for many viable reasons.

Please list these reasons. I've read the thread, and I have not noticed any. Seriously. I am not twisting people's words; I just have not seen a single explanation of why drakes are a good idea... look, I was here when drakes were added, and they were added for one reason - the devs thought they were cool. Things were simpler back then...

[JW]

the "werewolf" faction isn't going to simply be "wolf-men." Their background is currently being written, but I don't see how looking like a wolf and looking like an orc are different in any way.

c'mon....

As for the rest of the stuff, I agree with freim.

I would oppose any creatures that are god-like though and would bring in an organized official religion to Wesnoth. I PMed you (turin) about that matter earlier, so I hope you don't bring the EOM (which is demystifying) into that issue.

I am curious about the Wooses though. I haven't seen a shred of story on them. (and they own my favorite facion in MP too.... )

[Flametrooper]

Don't feed the Turin, people, don't feed the Turin. He'll have the forums down before you know what's happened to you. ESPECIALLY don't feed him anything that has to do remotely with drakes. It gives him some sort of food poisoning that makes him get bigger and meaner than usual.

[Elvish_Pillager]

Things were simpler back then...

I contest that statement! If anything, the devs have gotten more dedicated to the we-implement-what's-fun-for-us mentality since, for example, the Drakes.

Granted, we no longer have Miyo around to say that all the time, but then again, the devs now also don't talk about controversial decisions on the forums as much, so there's less call for that.