Race discussion---

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JW
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Race discussion---

Post by JW » June 10th, 2006, 11:12 pm

This question came up in OT, and I thought it was an interesting one:
Flametrooper wrote:Racial variant factions (i.e high/wood elves, steppe/regular orcs, wesnothian/lavinian humans, etc.) vs. making a completely new race.
In response, turin wrote this:
turin wrote:Racial variant factions, because coming up with a new race is very hard (I have yet to see anyone succeed to my satisfaction), while coming up with a new racial variant, while hard, is possible, and more interesting, IMHO.
I disagree with this a little. Fleshing out races is great, but having lots of variants of the same thing can get old if it's overdone.

Specific to Wesnoth, there are 5 elf species:
:arrow: Wood Elves
:arrow: Dark Elves
:arrow: Desert Elves
:arrow: Sidhe
:arrow: High Elves

...and only 7 other races:
:arrow: Humans
:arrow: Orcs/Goblins
:arrow: Drakes
:arrow: Saurians
:arrow: Dwarves
:arrow: Mermen
:arrow: Werewolves
(discounting races with only 1 unit such as Woses and Naga)

Of these 7 races Drakes and Saurians make 1 faction, Mermen have 1 unit in 2 factions, Dwarves have 1 faction, Orcs have another species in the works, Werewolves have just been created, and Humans are the only other race with multiple "species" (7).

:arrow: Loyalists
:arrow: Lavinians
:arrow: Marauders
:arrow: Aragwaithi
:arrow: Kedari
:arrow: Arendans
:arrow: Shifters

So basically, there's 7 Human factions, 5 Elf factions, 2 Orc factions, and 1 or fewer factions for the rest of the races. Fleshing out the other races would be great, but adding more "species" to the Humans and Elves is going to be overkil IMO until the relative variance of other species is increased as well. Humans are slightly different, however, as they are the focus of Wesnothian history coming from the Old Continent and settling the Great one. Of the 7 Human "species", however, only 2 are found on the Great Continent where 4 of the Elf species are found.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is there's a crapload of Elves and I hope Zhukov get his orcs done soon. :wink:

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Post by Flametrooper » June 10th, 2006, 11:31 pm

Do undeads count as a race? And is it possible to have undead variants?

Also, I think a dwarf variant is needed, I was going to work on dwarf variants but then the Celtic idea came up, I think when(if) the Celt faction gets finished I will do a dwarf variant.

Or we could expand races with ~1 or 2 units that are shoved in other factions (Mermen, Naga, Troll, Wose) and make them into complete factions.

Of course, a new race might be cool.
turin wrote: Racial variant factions, because coming up with a new race is very hard (I have yet to see anyone succeed to my satisfaction), while coming up with a new racial variant, while hard, is possible, and more interesting, IMHO.
The drakes, contrary to what you may think, are a good race in many people's opinions. To people who never knew Wesnoth before drakes, they are a good and central part of the game. I realize to diehards who were there before the drales got added, it's too big of a change, but change happens. Wesnoth is open-source and GPL, which means that changes can be and often are made.

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Post by Jew unit » June 11th, 2006, 3:07 am

I dunno Ive been playing around with the idea of Dwarven magick for a while and hopfully now that summer is here will work on that....
Last edited by Jew unit on June 11th, 2006, 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by toms » June 11th, 2006, 3:59 am

Flametrooper wrote:Do undeads count as a race? And is it possible to have undead variants?
Yup, the vampires.
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Post by Jester » June 11th, 2006, 8:29 am

I'm sorry JW, but I'll have to correct something.
You call the Drakes, Elves, Human, Dwarves etc. different races.
While calling the Sidhe, Wood Elves etc different species.
This should be switched.

Drakes, Elves and Humans are of a different species, whiile the Sidhe and Wood Elves are of the same species but from a different race.
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Post by Elvish_Pillager » June 11th, 2006, 9:37 am

Actually, there can definitely be undead variants...

Variant 1: Skeletons, Zombies, Ghosts, Ghouls - all those reanimated bodies.
Variant 2: Vampires, Headless Horsemen, Haunts - chaotically generated abominations.
Variant 3: Mummies, Bodaks, Crypt Fiends - these guys are more likely to hang around in one place and wait for a hero to get too close.

People like making up Undead so much, I bet we could have half a dozen Undead factions.
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Post by xtifr » June 11th, 2006, 9:49 am

Whatever. We need more orcs. Orcs rule, elfs drool! :)
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Post by Noyga » June 11th, 2006, 10:54 am

There is even more humans if you include 3 more factions : the Celtic faction, the Chaos Faction and the Kalifa faction (ex Saracens).
(and a demon race too).

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Post by Dragon Master » June 11th, 2006, 12:09 pm

I totally disagree with Turin on this one, I'd rather see a large variant of species than a few species with many races. I don't understand peoples' obsession with elves, we coud use some more faction that play totally differently than others.

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Post by turin » June 11th, 2006, 2:12 pm

I never said that only elvish and human variants should be made, only that variants are better than new races. I agree, it would be very cool to get more orcish, undead, and dwarvish variants.

Flametrooper wrote:The drakes, contrary to what you may think, are a good race in many people's opinions. To people who never knew Wesnoth before drakes, they are a good and central part of the game. I realize to diehards who were there before the drales got added, it's too big of a change, but change happens. Wesnoth is open-source and GPL, which means that changes can be and often are made.
And? Much of what is popular is ****. I fail to see your point.

But let's not get into that flamewar...
Noyga wrote:There is even more humans if you include 3 more factions : the Celtic faction, the Chaos Faction and the Kalifa faction (ex Saracens).
(and a demon race too).
And the Saracens are on the Great Continent. WoOt. ;)

Dragon Master wrote:I totally disagree with Turin on this one, I'd rather see a large variant of species than a few species with many races. I don't understand peoples' obsession with elves, we coud use some more faction that play totally differently than others.
And elvish factions can't play completely different from other elvish factions... why?
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Post by JW » June 11th, 2006, 5:27 pm

I forgot Chaos had humans in it. I always think of the Abomination and that dog. :wink: And yeah, the Saracens are more humans. I didn't realize the Celtic faction was complete either. And Jester, you are right once again about my mistake.

So that makes what,

10 human
5 elf
2 orc
1 dwarf
1 werewolf
1 drake/saurian factions,

and 2 mermen units (not counting the unrecruitable mermen mages - unless they're recruitable in exxtended?)

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Post by Dragon Master » June 11th, 2006, 5:29 pm

The elvish factions may play totally differently, but they're all still elves, that's just boring. I don't understand what is so appealing about elves, I don't like 'em that much.

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Post by Alks » June 11th, 2006, 5:32 pm

Dragon Master wrote:The elvish factions may play totally differently, but they're all still elves, that's just boring. I don't understand what is so appealing about elves, I don't like 'em that much.
It's rarely happens, but I agree with turin on this point. Elves and elves make sometimes bigger difference than two different-named races. And Wesnoth proves that - I don't see any drawbacks of having so many elvish factions, and still see the place for one or two.

Besides, I still have my Phantoms on the desk, and still working on them (though mundial and novel put them aside). When I finish them, I will try to follow JW and make era of my own(if someone wants to discourage me, do it now).

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Post by jg » June 11th, 2006, 5:40 pm

I see that there are some good diferences between the elvish races, but what DM said is also true, that new factions are perhaps a good addition as well - the only problem one would need a truely very new concept for something like that. Not just a mixture of perhaps the humans and elves, calling them the humelfs (or something like that).

jg

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Post by Dragon Master » June 11th, 2006, 5:45 pm

Also, with so many elf races, your losing originality. Hmm...I can't think of a new race for all these units, I know! I'll make more elves, elves are cool after all. [/probablequote]

I'd much rather see a totally new concept than a different spin on an old one.

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