Serious PROBLEMS

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CuddleFish
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Serious PROBLEMS

Post by CuddleFish » April 23rd, 2006, 5:07 pm

Drakes

-every single one of their units have extreme cold weakness, even the saurians
(undead pwnz drakes, elf sorcs pwn drakes, saurians pwn drakes)

-most units have that annoying pierce weakness
(loyalists can just spam spearmen against drakes)

-the defense % of drakes and saurians are both insufficient, drakes should have 50% on terrain types like mountains or villages, and saurians should have 70% on certain terrain types... that way those units can actually stand and fight without having to fear getting pwned next turn

-a resilient gobbo has more hp than a saurian, a WC has more hp than a quick,intelligent tribalist; saurians die very easily,
to make it worse they cost more than spearmen and elf fighters...
who can pwn them in 1 vs 1


Undead

-Lack water combat units
loyalists have mermen, elves have mermen hunters, orcs have nagas, drakes can fly, and dwarves have gryffons...
i dont understand why the bats cost 13 and have less hp than a WC

-no traits, and nothing to compensate for that
(immunity to poison and submerge isnt that useful compared to resilient)


Dwarves

-lacks fire/cold units, it is annoying when you have ot use dwarves against units like heavy infantry and woses

-no leadership


Orcs

-the fire arrows of the archer is insufficient


Loyalists

-melee attack of bowmen is too strong
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quartex
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Post by quartex » April 23rd, 2006, 5:10 pm

Those aren't bugs, they're features! ;-)

Dragon Master
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Post by Dragon Master » April 23rd, 2006, 5:21 pm

You've basically pointed out the weaknesses of the races.
Drakes are like they are because they are oh so powerful. Keep your recruits clumped together and heal often to win. Suarians are weak because they are scouts and healers. Healers shouldn't engage in combat so their health is not a problem. You shouldn't be attacking with suarians unless its night and your in swamps. Skirmisher is very useful for retreating. Drakes are weak to cold so that against drakes you have an advantage, and to compensate for the fact that firebreath can pwn humans and undead.

Undead aren't meant to be in 1 vs. 1 fights. More like 50 vs. 1 fights. that's why their units are weak, the bat has drain and 50% defence on all terrain AND it flies, just like ghosts so combat focuses on not getting hit. Bat are also scouts so they shouldn't be in combat either

Dwarves have HUGE resistance against everything so offence isn't their strong point

Orcs are terrible, just don't use them

Loyalists have sub-par archers, so the melee attack is fine

Wesnoth took quite a while to make so the developers feel it is quite balanced and would have fixed what you adressed if it actually was a problem

CuddleFish
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Post by CuddleFish » April 23rd, 2006, 5:26 pm

not really "features", they're universally known problems that haven't been fixed...
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CuddleFish
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Post by CuddleFish » April 23rd, 2006, 5:31 pm

Dragon Master wrote:You've basically pointed out the weaknesses of the races.
Drakes are like they are because they are oh so powerful. Keep your recruits clumped together and heal often to win. Suarians are weak because they are scouts and healers. Healers shouldn't engage in combat so their health is not a problem. You shouldn't be attacking with suarians unless its night and your in swamps. Skirmisher is very useful for retreating. Drakes are weak to cold so that against drakes you have an advantage, and to compensate for the fact that firebreath can pwn humans and undead.

Undead aren't meant to be in 1 vs. 1 fights. More like 50 vs. 1 fights. that's why their units are weak, the bat has drain and 50% defence on all terrain AND it flies, just like ghosts so combat focuses on not getting hit. Bat are also scouts so they shouldn't be in combat either

Dwarves have HUGE resistance against everything so offence isn't their strong point

Orcs are terrible, just don't use them

Loyalists have sub-par archers, so the melee attack is fine

Wesnoth took quite a while to make so the developers feel it is quite balanced and would have fixed what you adressed if it actually was a problem
Lets play a game :D you use drakes and i'll use undead... then you'll understand the seriousness of these problems

but then... i'm complaining too much.... wesnoth is free
"you get what you pay for"
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Sapient
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Post by Sapient » April 23rd, 2006, 5:40 pm

I think if you come back after playing Multiplayer for a while longer, then you'll find that you disagree with yourself. The factions all have different styles and are meant to be played differently.

Undeads do have a trait, by the way, it is the "undead" trait, and it grants some immunities.
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Re: Serious PROBLEMS

Post by JW » April 23rd, 2006, 5:58 pm

CuddleFish wrote:Drakes

-every single one of their units have extreme cold weakness, even the saurians
(undead pwnz drakes, elf sorcs pwn drakes, saurians pwn drakes)

-most units have that annoying pierce weakness
(loyalists can just spam spearmen against drakes)

-the defense % of drakes and saurians are both insufficient, drakes should have 50% on terrain types like mountains or villages, and saurians should have 70% on certain terrain types... that way those units can actually stand and fight without having to fear getting pwned next turn

-a resilient gobbo has more hp than a saurian, a WC has more hp than a quick,intelligent tribalist; saurians die very easily,
to make it worse they cost more than spearmen and elf fighters...
who can pwn them in 1 vs 1


Undead

-Lack water combat units
loyalists have mermen, elves have mermen hunters, orcs have nagas, drakes can fly, and dwarves have gryffons...
i dont understand why the bats cost 13 and have less hp than a WC

-no traits, and nothing to compensate for that
(immunity to poison and submerge isnt that useful compared to resilient)


Dwarves

-lacks fire/cold units, it is annoying when you have ot use dwarves against units like heavy infantry and woses

-no leadership


Orcs

-the fire arrows of the archer is insufficient


Loyalists

-melee attack of bowmen is too strong
This is a joke, right? :roll: :roll:

CuddleFish
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Post by CuddleFish » April 23rd, 2006, 6:26 pm

Sapient wrote:I think if you come back after playing Multiplayer for a while longer, then you'll find that you disagree with yourself. The factions all have different styles and are meant to be played differently.

Undeads do have a trait, by the way, it is the "undead" trait, and it grants some immunities.
If you can beat me with drakes while i'm using undead, then i'll agree with you :D

and for the "undead" trait, poison immunity isnt that useful... since only 2 races have level1 poison...
"submerge" is a mostly useless ability, you must have just implemented it after watching "pirates of the caribeean"
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Doc Paterson
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Post by Doc Paterson » April 23rd, 2006, 7:01 pm

CuddleFish wrote:
If you can beat me with drakes while i'm using undead, then i'll agree with you :D

I feel like someone makes this same claim at least once every 1-2 months, then gets destroyed by a non-noob player, then realizes that they don't know what they're talking about.

Let's see it one more time, for old time's sake!
Last edited by Doc Paterson on April 23rd, 2006, 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Casual User » April 23rd, 2006, 7:17 pm

Cuddlefish wrote:Drakes
... are terrible (okay, I only wrote that to get under Neo's skin).

Seriously though,
Cuddlefish wrote:every single one of their units have extreme cold weakness, even the saurians (undead pwnz drakes, elf sorcs pwn drakes, saurians pwn drakes)
Have you ever seen what a clasher can do to a dark adept?

Also, with the breath attack vs the ghost, the drake is coming out ahead (due to the very low hitpoints of the ghost).
Cuddlefish wrote:-most units have that annoying pierce weakness
10%, woohoo :roll:
Cuddlefish wrote:-the defense % of drakes and saurians are both insufficient, drakes should have 50% on terrain types like mountains or villages, and saurians should have 70% on certain terrain types... that way those units can actually stand and fight without having to fear getting pwned next turn
They used to have higher defense, but that was really unbalanced.
Cuddlefish wrote:-a resilient gobbo has more hp than a saurian, a WC has more hp than a quick,intelligent tribalist; saurians die very easily,
to make it worse they cost more than spearmen and elf fighters...
who can pwn them in 1 vs 1
But saurians aren't made to be frontline fighters. In between their healing, skirmishing and magic, they're support units and scouts. Keep that in mind when using them.
Cuddlefish wrote:Undead
... are really annoying to fight against.
Cuddlefish wrote:-Lack water combat units
And we all know how important controlling the seas is in Wesnoth...
Cuddlefish wrote:i dont understand why the bats cost 13 and have less hp than a WC
Because they are unbelievable scouts? They have 7mp and need only 1mp through most terrain. Scary...
Cuddlefish wrote:-no traits, and nothing to compensate for that
... except huge resistances to the two most common damage types and the ability to spam ad infinitum.
Cuddlefish wrote:Dwarves
Wooo, yeah (sorry).
Cuddlefish wrote:-lacks fire/cold units, it is annoying when you have ot use dwarves against units like heavy infantry and woses
Fighters (and the occasional 'serker for the finish) will turn woses into kindling fast.

As for HI, you've obviously not noticed how annoying it is to fight thunderers (or worse, poachers) with them...
Cuddlefish wrote:Orcs
Aaaw...
Cuddlefish wrote:-the fire arrows of the archer is insufficient
In between the piercing arrows, the fire arrows, the impacting trolls and the piercing goblins, orcs really have 'a little something for everyone'.

But grunts are terrible, I'll grant that :P .
Cuddlefish wrote:Loyalists
... are all right.
Cuddlefish wrote:-melee attack of bowmen is too strong
I guess it's a question of personal taste, I like the fact that loyalist bowmen are somewhat more like mixed fighters. But they're not that great.

I do happen to agree with this, though:
Cuddlefish wrote:Dwarves

-no leadership
I've always thought a dwarf leader would be nice. To preserve factional identity, I personally think there should be a lvl 3 branch (not lvl 2 like the elves).

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Viliam
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Post by Viliam » April 23rd, 2006, 7:55 pm

Doc Paterson wrote:I feel like someone makes this same claim at least once every 1-2 months, then gets destroyed by a non-noob player, then realizes that they don't know what they're talking about.

Let's see it one more time, for old time's sake!
It could be useful to post some replays of such games, so that new players can learn from them before posting.

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JW
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Post by JW » April 23rd, 2006, 8:30 pm

Viliam wrote:
Doc Paterson wrote:I feel like someone makes this same claim at least once every 1-2 months, then gets destroyed by a non-noob player, then realizes that they don't know what they're talking about.

Let's see it one more time, for old time's sake!
It could be useful to post some replays of such games, so that new players can learn from them before posting.
Ooh ooh, I got one!!

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Cuyo Quiz
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Post by Cuyo Quiz » April 23rd, 2006, 11:57 pm

Damn, those ARE problems with every faction :shock: .

Damn, those problems make things balanced too :o .

Damn, i thought Cuddlefish knew by now :? .

OAT, i may need a copy of this in Off-Topic so i can laugh.
Viliam wrote:It could be useful to post some replays of such games, so that new players can learn from them before posting.
Well, Doc is the Lord of Replays, right?. Maybe some can be stickied in Strategy, Users, or gods help us, Multiplayer Dev.

EDIT: Thinking that would work, Dragon Master, would be a little wishful, IMO.
Last edited by Cuyo Quiz on April 24th, 2006, 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Dragon Master » April 24th, 2006, 12:15 am

I think there should be a rule that you can't complain about Wesnoth/Factions unless you've had a good 2-3 months of play time under your belt.

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Post by catwhowalksbyhimself » April 24th, 2006, 2:27 am

So, basically he's saying the factions should be all identical? Why even have factions then. let's just have one side with different pictures. Then Wesnoth becomes boring so let's not even play it.

Come one! The whole thing that makes a strategy game interesting is that every side has some weakenesses and some strengths. You post is indeed a list of features, not bugs.

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