Scenario Review: DiD 12 - Endless Night

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Giraffemonster
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 12 - Endless Night

Post by Giraffemonster » January 15th, 2011, 12:24 am

Rating this by conventional means doesn't really sound that useful, based on what I have to offer.

I liked the ending. Didn't have any large battle like all of the other campaigns, but it's a more "different" ending. I didn't know that the Foolish Hero gets more and more gold, but I died to finish it anyway. Most of the good units of my army were lost in "Alone at Last". This brings up the point, that "Alone at Last" could be considered as the climax battle.

Anyway, I don't think any changes need to be made, as it's fine as it is. Trying to make a positive ending wouldn't really work, as the story is supposed to be based on someone who had been struck by misfortune many times, being forced to take an evil route, and then dying without any sort of fame despite his efforts to help those he valued. As you can see, he got turned down by his scholars, then by his hometown simply for trying to save them, getting turned down again after actually saving them, then being betrayed by his mentor. Making a positive ending would let go of all of that.

Great campaign too, I enjoyed it.

torgo
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 12 - Endless Night

Post by torgo » February 7th, 2011, 7:43 am

I've just recently started playing Wesnoth and am enjoying it. I've only done a few of the other campaigns before trying this one. Overall, it's pretty good - but there are a few corrections or clarifications here or there.

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.8.5, Normal level.


(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Needs a change/correction.

The objectives claim there's an early finish bonus. Is that true? If so, the objectives need to explain how quickly you have to win it in order to get a bonus. And if not (which I think is the case), that statement needs to be removed from the objectives.


(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)


Playing it just the first time against each type of enemy = 9. It's a pretty good scenario for tactics.

Playing it repeatedly = 3. Not all that much ever changes other than more enemy units. There needs to be a possibility for an alternate ending rather than forcing you to keep playing until you lose or get bored and quit.



(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Here's my thought for an improved ending: at some point (maybe 5 or 6 victories, maybe more), let the player choose after each victory whether to continue and face another Foolish Hero or whether to go to some kind of epilogue.



(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

No crashes or anything like that so far, if that's what you mean.

I suppose the whole point of this scenario is that it becomes increasingly difficult and the main character ultimately loses. He's a bad guy, so he has to come to a bad end.

I don't think that's actually the case. I think you *can* keep going indefinitely. I've found one strategy myself that should do the trick (hint - the big secret is to end up with a positive revenue), and I've seen another one posted elsewhere. But I don't intend to waste the time killing off 30 or 50 or 100 heroes to test either approach.

Again, an alternate ending allowing the option to go to an epilogue would be a big improvement. Getting bored and quitting is NOT a good ending for a campaign.

Doopliss
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 12 - Endless Night

Post by Doopliss » February 14th, 2011, 6:32 am

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
The navel-gazing about that mysterious lich's origins and purpose seemed forced, even as an ending. Also, I'd like to chime in with all the voices asking for an epilogue, if you can think of anything to write.

torgo
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 12 - Endless Night

Post by torgo » February 18th, 2011, 1:24 am

I'll add that the epilogue doesn't have to be a happy one - if Mal Keshar must come to a bad end, the epilogue can reflect that.

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GagarinGambit
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 12 - Endless Night

Post by GagarinGambit » March 3rd, 2011, 8:38 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Hard 1.8.4

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
Obviously it begins as 1 and gradually increases

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Crystal

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
It's good again... that's an unusual way to end a campaign, but it's very suitable. It's a good ending for a good story (and note that I sympathise with Malin even at this stage).

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Not applicable

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
4. Story-wise it's exceptional, however I don't enjoy playing the same level over and over again, only to see how long I can last.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
In spite of my taste, I think it's good the way it is.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Isn't this the entire point of this scenario?


Having completed this campaign, I must say I really love it. Each scenario is well designed and offers an original challenge, and I enjoyed almost all of them. The story is also unusually good and it contributes to the fun. My only complain is that there are only 12 scenarios... Many thanks for making DiD!
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Francisco_Silveira
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 12 - Endless Night

Post by Francisco_Silveira » June 2nd, 2011, 9:11 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Normal, 1.9.6

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
3, 4 and 10 (I died on the third restart)

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Not much, it looked like a bug to me. Restarting against a stronger opponent... xD When I realized that it was not a bug but a new and stronger opponent, I tought that the goal was to level the lich up. But when I did it, and killed the bandit guy, the dwarves showed up. And I couldn't defeat them (hehe). And when I died, the credits. I didn't understand at all. And when the campaign was marked as passed in the campaign menu, it took me a little time to figure all out.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Short but very interest if you think of all the campaign history.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
I didn't got it from the begginig, as I said.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
4, but when I understood the real reason, it's surely an 8.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
There are just too few (2) scenarios you play as a lich, and even fewer as the master lich. There could be more scenarios, involving some last return to his home village, he getting killed by his sister, and in his final words he seeing what he had become, and dying asking for forgiveness, wich are or are not given by his sister. xD

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
No, when I lost, I won. How ironic.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?


Just for saying, this campaign is one of the best. I really enjoyed it. The final then, just amazing. Congratulations for who did it. There should be a question asking how much you like all campaign. I would easily give a 10. ^^

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Efinari
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 12 - Endless Night

Post by Efinari » June 28th, 2011, 5:10 pm

I want to mention first that it's been at least a year since I've played the scenario, so these answers are pulled from the dim reaches of my memory (except for 1: I almost always play on the easiest difficulty, and I've used 1.6.5 for ages now).

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Normal, 1.6.5
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
Probably about a 9, maybe a 10.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
At first, not very clear. I thought it might be a bug; but then I looked at the scenario file and discovered what the real objectives were.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
The dialog was pretty clear. The storyline seemed to be 'sputtering' (like a candle's flame), but then I looked at the scenario file, and it was more clear.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Basic difficulties in the fighting. You're fighting in a large, open cave; against a lot of powerful enemies. That's always pretty difficult.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
I'd have to say somewhere around a 4. The ending was rather a dissapointment--particularly after specifically not being able to kill Dela in that one scenario; but then she never shows up again.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Actually, I took the liberty of modifying my version. I made Dela show up after several repeats. She shows up dressed as a bandit, and they fight, and Mal Keshar kills her without realizing it's her. On her deathbed, she reveals her name and story, and Mal Keshar reveals his. There's a tearful reunion, and then Dela dies. An undead onlooker remarks that the orcs are massing to attack the caves again, and that the undead would drive them out; but instead Mal Keshar commits suicide. The End. (I've attached the scenario file (v1.6.5) so you can take a peak.)
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
No, it's common practice for me to reload every time it starts going poorly :) , so I must've reloaded about a million times without actually losing.
(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not, which part would you like to be documented better?
Like I said, I looked at the file and even rewrote it (sorry if that's something like plagiarism). It was all very clear, and well commented--perhaps even unusually so! :)
Attachments
12_Endless_Night.cfg
This is the modified scenario file.
(19.78 KiB) Downloaded 232 times
Kallin Efinari
---Creator of "LOTE Unit Release", "7p - Afterwards", and "Chain Lightning"
(Working on 1.12 port of "7p - Afterwards")
Managing compatibility between 4000K people's ideas of what happens? Forget it!

podbelski
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 12 - Endless Night

Post by podbelski » July 10th, 2011, 11:23 am

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.9.6, Hard, ~500gp, no reloads

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
1 for the first attempt, then I committed a suicide b/c already new it's endless

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
5, it's fine, mostly thanks to the story line

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
probably good as is... though there is merit in a redesign, some ideas of the above posters are good.


Overall campaign impressions:

it is very good IMO, 7 out of 10. The disappointment were the three "A Small Favor" scenarios, which could be much better. Other than that, I can say I enjoyed everything!

mmonz
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 12 - Endless Night

Post by mmonz » July 31st, 2011, 3:25 pm

The last scenario is a big disappointment.

If you're using the right-most village and its surroundings as a castle (and, if you've got enough spectres)
you can withstand any number of enemies ( with the possible exception of a large army of white mages).

I've reached the 2200 gold version and won it easily. Prior to that I tested dying, but I didn't realize that
this was meant ot be the proper end. Finally, I looked into the forum to get an answer and realized, that
I had already seen the proper end.

I like the suggestion of having a truly unwinnable scenario (no repetitions, please!). Furthermore,
I'd like an end where not just two arbitrary characters shrough their shoulders about the dead lich,
but where the 'hero' does regret his ways or dies any other dramatic way.

Turgon
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 12 - Endless Night

Post by Turgon » November 4th, 2011, 4:26 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Normal 1.8.4

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
Begins at 3-4, after the third opponent (600+ gold) rather about 8

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Pretty clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
The best idea thoughout all Wesnoth campaigns I have played (and I have played all exept Dead Water by now). Never before I felt so shaken by any computer game when I realised the whole despair within Malin's way.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
None. In the beginning it was a simple 1v1 battle, later on it was a very difficult 1v1 battle ;)

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8. If can call a tragic story like this funny.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
It's allright now, but I can't get enough of the lines of text Mal Keshar has. His references to his enemies etc. I would love to read more like this. Maybe a reflection of his deeds or adding the ghosts of Darken Volk and Dela (if you kill her in scenario 10) as loyal units which always comment on your actions.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Here? Why?

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not, which part would you like to be documented better?

Good work to invent this "timesforever" variable! Everything is well documented.

I'd love to see one more undead campaign, explaining the ways of dark magic in such a detailed way.
Looking for feedback for my dramatic campaign "A story of three villages", a late-age men vs. undead story going to include vampires and werewolves: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=36193

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taptap
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 12 - Endless Night

Post by taptap » November 9th, 2011, 4:43 pm

Hahaha, this scenario is odd (very funny). You really have to consciously try to kill yourself to achieve it. I defeated the 1000 gold army without any recalls, the mages were just too afraid to use their ranged attack against the village sitting lich, against the 1200 gold orcs I really try to kill myself at least once to see epilogue, but being encircled on 60% even that isn't easy.
I am a Saurian Skirmisher: I'm a real pest, especially at night.

JonathanCR
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 12 - Endless Night

Post by JonathanCR » December 15th, 2011, 2:09 pm

I just wanted to say quickly that I played this campaign over the past few days (on the iPad, don't know if later revisions are available on "normal" Wesnoth) and it was one of the most enjoyable ones I've played. The story was excellent and the writing much better than in most campaigns. In fact, this story has really stuck in my thoughts over the last couple of days - it is genuinely moving. This scenario was the perfect end to it. I must admit that I died on the second iteration - I'm not very good at it. But I realised immediately what was going on. The dialogue at Malin's death was beautifully judged. It really forces you to consider what it all meant for yourself. Are they right when they say that it really doesn't matter who he was or what drove him to become a lich? Or does the fact that the player knows the backstory make a difference? I like the fact that the game doesn't give you any easy answers. For what it's worth, I see Malin as an initially positive and sympathetic character who becomes gradually corrupted until he is no different from any other "evil lich" - but the process is so gradual, and the steps by which it happens so apparently slight, that it's easy not to notice. The question is which of his choices are wrong - all of them, or just some? Thank you to the original creator of this campaign and those who have subsequently worked on it.

Curtis
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 12 - Endless Night

Post by Curtis » January 27th, 2012, 10:55 pm

Content Feedback wrote:(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
The most difficult; Wesnoth 1.9.11
Content Feedback wrote:(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
As designed, it went basically 1/3/5/7/10 on repeated playing.
Content Feedback wrote:(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very.
Content Feedback wrote:(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
About half cool the first time. I did appreciate that 'my' response to the Foolish Heroes was different each time (at least through the first five).
Content Feedback wrote:(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Thanks to the advice found in the walkthrough about retreating to the cul de sac in the southeast (which I did starting with the third iteration), the only real challenge came in the fifth iteration, which I'll cover under (8) below.
Content Feedback wrote:(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
It's about a '5' until the fifth time through. I varied the walkthrough advice by defending farther forward in the cul de sac, and I made periodic sorties out over the lake to spice things up.
Content Feedback wrote:(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I'd've run it in the Troll cavern from the previous scenario. I mean, I went to all that trouble to clear the place out with the avowed purpose of making it my base, but then I get an entirely different place to defend in the next scenario. Kind of a bummer. And having the two side passages to hold — with all the villages in them — would make for a much more interesting tactical challenge, as well as forcing an important strategic decision. Abandoning 21 villages to your opponent is a much different thing than abandoning 7.
Content Feedback wrote:(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
YES!!! The 'event' that caused me to abandon the campaign early in my fifth run through the scenario was having to face mutant Outlaws, Footpads, Bandits and Trappers! As I look at the character descriptions they appear to be 'normal' units of their types, with no significant bonus or malus for the Thugs and significant maluses for the Outlaws and Footpads to counteract their being so hard to hit.

BUT, when I actually swung at them, it turned out they all have a 'hidden' 50% resistance to blades, which is almost all of the weapons in my force. Doing 9-4 instead of 17-4 with my Specters (six of my eleven units) was just a killer. Combined with the greater difficulty to hit half of them, and that the vast majority of them (all but the Bandits) had both melee and effective missile weapons, I went down fast and hard. Even finally leveling up to Ancient Lich on turn 9 only slowed the onslaught by a tiny bit.

By the way, at the end my force comprised six Specters (shadows died as fast as I could level them), one each Ghast, Banebow, Necromancer and Ancient Lich, and a Level Zero bat to use up the money left over. The Ghast and Banebow were effectively useless after the third (maybe second) run through, and I might have been better off buying Dark Adepts instead; I could've had three for the cost of recalling the Ghast and Banebow and recruiting the Bat, and by the fifth run through some of them might have leveled up into something useful.

I did get some use out of the Bat in the fourth run through, though. After we reached a stalemate with neither side willing to attack, I sent the Bat out beyond the lake, where he attracted a Troll and an Orc Warrior (who killed it), but that enabled me to rush four Specters out and kill those two, effectively breaking the siege. When the Orc Hero sent the majority of his units around to contain the breakout, that weakened the force in the tunnel sufficiently that my 'main' force was abl;e to wipe them out in three rounds.

And yes, I do consider giving a unit a resistance that doesn't appear in their unit description 'cheating', and to give it to ALL the units on the Foolish Hero's side is just despicable. Boo.
Content Feedback wrote:(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
Not applicable.

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zookeeper
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 12 - Endless Night

Post by zookeeper » January 27th, 2012, 11:25 pm

Curtis wrote:BUT, when I actually swung at them, it turned out they all have a 'hidden' 50% resistance to blades, which is almost all of the weapons in my force. Doing 9-4 instead of 17-4 with my Specters (six of my eleven units) was just a killer. Combined with the greater difficulty to hit half of them, and that the vast majority of them (all but the Bandits) had both melee and effective missile weapons, I went down fast and hard. Even finally leveling up to Ancient Lich on turn 9 only slowed the onslaught by a tiny bit.

By the way, at the end my force comprised six Specters (shadows died as fast as I could level them), one each Ghast, Banebow, Necromancer and Ancient Lich, and a Level Zero bat to use up the money left over. The Ghast and Banebow were effectively useless after the third (maybe second) run through, and I might have been better off buying Dark Adepts instead; I could've had three for the cost of recalling the Ghast and Banebow and recruiting the Bat, and by the fifth run through some of them might have leveled up into something useful.

I did get some use out of the Bat in the fourth run through, though. After we reached a stalemate with neither side willing to attack, I sent the Bat out beyond the lake, where he attracted a Troll and an Orc Warrior (who killed it), but that enabled me to rush four Specters out and kill those two, effectively breaking the siege. When the Orc Hero sent the majority of his units around to contain the breakout, that weakened the force in the tunnel sufficiently that my 'main' force was abl;e to wipe them out in three rounds.

And yes, I do consider giving a unit a resistance that doesn't appear in their unit description 'cheating', and to give it to ALL the units on the Foolish Hero's side is just despicable. Boo.
Well... I can assure you that there's no such hidden mechanic in that scenario. Spectres deal arcane melee damage though, not blade, and outlaws like (almost) all humans have 20% arcane resistance.

Curtis
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 12 - Endless Night

Post by Curtis » January 28th, 2012, 1:00 am

zookeeper wrote:Well... I can assure you that there's no such hidden mechanic in that scenario. Spectres deal arcane melee damage though, not blade, and outlaws like (almost) all humans have 20% arcane resistance.
The damage calculation said times .5 for resistance, not .8 (I checked vs. Outlaws, Bandits and Trappers), however I see that the base damage for Spectres is 9-4, and 9 times 125% for underground, times 80% for arcane resistance does bring it back to 9-4, so the actual damage inflicted was correct. Thank you for correcting me.

This makes me wonder about the posters above who had no problems dealing with forces even twice this size. I actually killed fewer units than I lost, if you leave out the carnage wreaked by the Ancient Lich. Two Spectres attacking any second level unit of that force did not kill them in one attack unless they'd already been weakened by retaliation for their missile fire on their own turn, while their missile fire dropped the Spectres like flies.

Even the Bandits seemed unstoppable; they got four swings, so they usually did damage after the last time a Spectre drained, thereby weakening them considerably. If I pulled them out of the line, they only healed at 2 per round, and not at all the turn I pulled them out, and I quickly ran out of undamaged replacements to rotate in. Bring a new guy in, attack the Bandit and sometimes kill him, but take damage in the process, then the Hero brings up an Outlaw and a Trapper to destroy the replacement Spectre. Bring up another replacement Spectre to attack the pristine Outlaw (who took no retaliatory damage due his 60% defense) and damage him, so he retreats out to heal, then they bring up another Bandit, rinse and repeat. If I attack the Trapper instead of the Outlaw, I can only get him from one space, so again can only damage, and the same net result.

Every three rounds I was killing one and wounding two, but they were killing one and wounding one… until I ran out of unwounded ones to throw into the breach, and then they just killed a guy a turn until only the Lich was left. Even the Lich could only kill people (except Footpads) in conjunction with attacks from other units, so once everyone else was dead….

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