Scenario Review: DiD 12 - Endless Night

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crimson99
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 12 - Forever and Ever, Amen

Post by crimson99 » October 26th, 2008, 1:43 am

well first of all good game! good campaign!

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
ahm the one after normal - played it in german so I don´t know i think it must be "challanging"

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
1 is easy? than 1 if you wan´t to win ... 8 if you want to die ...

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
are you kidding me? if i wouldn´t have googeled it and found this thread here i still would kill dwarves and elves i was able to get killed in wave 9 (it was really hard to die - my old lich killed a whole wave of dwarves ...)
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
well as already said by others the end is a bit unsatisfieing ... but the dialog is quite funny

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
the enemys died to fast! to get killed ... oh well and to find out what the "real" objective is ....

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
well, i played it 9 times so ... the fun was decreasing with every "attempt" from lets say 9 to ... 2

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
hm at least after the third or fifth wave of heros a hint what the real objective is would be great
btw does it go to infinity or does it stop after several rounds?

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?


(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?



well if you want to introduce Dela in the end you would have to change the storyline - killed her at first sight in the other scenario (don´t remember its name ...)

even though i liked the ending, it fits very well - i have to agree with the others an other ending would be more fun

i like the idea of the three alternate endings
1 you die
2 you spare dela or any other special hero who comes along - another would emphasise the many years which have passed by
3 you kill dela/other hero and go out to conquer the world by fighting an alliance of ork, man, dwarves and elves
so you have 4 enemys on one huge map

3 of course needs another scenario

peet
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 12 - Forever and Ever, Amen

Post by peet » May 29th, 2009, 3:07 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Easy - 1.45

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

Not really rateable in a normal way since the difficulty keeps increasing.

It wasn't until the fifth or sixth foolish hero that it became difficult, thanks to a well-developed army list. I think perhaps the gold formula should be 200 + 100 * timesForever. instead of 100 + 100 * timesForever.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Not very, considering you have to do the same thing over and over again. Some dialogue that changes from one iteration to the next would make it more clear just what is going on.

For example, on the second time around your character could say: "Fool! I will do to you what I did to the last one who dared enter here! He never came out alive and neither shall you!" And the the third time: "What? Another one? You fools should leave me be; you only throw away your lives by coming here." and so on.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Not very clear. See above.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
None, at first. Later it's just a matter of maximizing your units since you will only get ten of them each scenario.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
4/10. It gets boring pretty fast, and there aren't any real tactical issues that need to be resolved. There's basically one main road leading to your opponent, and a small side route usable by bats and ghosts and cave-dwelling creatures. I suppose this is necessary because most of your enemies don't move well in caves, but it ends up that you just march your guys down the road towards the enemy.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Perhaps the map could change from one iteration to another. There are some paths leading off to the west that could indicate an alternate route into the caves for the Foolish Heroes. Also, a condensed version of the map of the area to the south would be good.

Also, if the humans, elves and dwarves are attacking you, why aren't the orcs? The orcs are getting the brunt of your attacks in between iterations.

Finally, some system of "keeping score" would be good. If those who kill you at the end remark about how many foolish heroes died before the current one defeated you, this could be your "score."

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Nope - it ran fine.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
Didn't really look at the WML.

Peet

blue
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Joined: July 8th, 2009, 11:43 am

Re: Scenario Review: DiD 12 - Forever and Ever, Amen

Post by blue » September 1st, 2009, 6:13 pm

1. Evoker (challenging) 1.6.4
2. 3 the first hero 5 the second then i stopped
3. Not too clear.
4. Nice dialogue was fun
5. None for the first two waves i played
6. 5 for gameplay but it fits the story nicely
7. None
8. None

Overall a very nice and interesting campaign with a great storyline. Only thing i missed was more large-scale battle scenarios like Orc War.

sw_emigre
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 12 - Endless Night

Post by sw_emigre » October 10th, 2009, 2:29 am

I think it ended the way it had to end, in that we were never really supposed to like our hero. I could see an ending that would have him "defeated", meaning down to 0 HP, and then his spirit or whatever goes away, a la one of the scenes in THoT when a lich does that. (Second to last scene.) Then the heroes could could say they've trapped him/killed him...but he's still there, for another day....


As it stands, just a bit more dialogue at the end, one of the heroes knowing a bit more of Mal's story, just to finish it off a little less abruptly.

All in all, good stuff.

I played on 1.6, BTW

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Neoskel
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 12 - Endless Night

Post by Neoskel » October 12th, 2009, 3:14 am

I really enjoyed this campaign. It went around the main problem i experience in campaigns, which is becoming attached to all my starting troops and raeging when they die. Gotta love nameless undead mooks. I did get attached to the 3 ghouls you get in the second scenario (named them Larry, Joe and Curly Moe. Actually got some use out of feeding.) and my first ghost to get to level 3 (named him Darkness) who always ended up as the minion to talk to Malin in the cutscenes. Oh, and a Dread bat i named Fluffykins.

All of the scenarios were well thought out and enjoyable. Got swamped at the end by like ten thousand bandits. Love the last scenario being endless until you die.

Isen
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 12 - Endless Night

Post by Isen » December 3rd, 2009, 10:39 am

Yeah, as someone mentioned I don't think the standard questions apply to this one. Just wanted to mention that this was the best finale to a campaign I've encountered in Wesnoth and possibly ever.

senjin
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 12 - Endless Night

Post by senjin » January 1st, 2010, 6:09 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.6.5, medium

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
Two first times were rather easy, later it becomes more difficult, but with proper tricks probably one could play forever.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
It is not clear that you win by loosing. Maybe our hero should say something like "finally my soul is free" when dying? Or maybe make the objective to become the ancient lich (or maybe 5 level lich)?...

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Clear, but - as in the whole campaign - there is no interaction in the dialogues. The characters simple say what they have to say, and ignore each other.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Humans (mages) and dwarves (hammers vs bones) are a bit more difficult than the others, but finally I learned how to beat them.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
The scenario itself is nice, but it is a bit disappointing as an end of the campaign. The goal advertising campaign (free the humans from orcs) is not reached and the Dela theme is unfinished.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Easy: Add some text at the end to make the player feel he completed the campaign. More difficult: add more scenarios ;)

Artegal
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 12 - Endless Night

Post by Artegal » January 25th, 2010, 3:03 am

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
normal

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
Clearing the first two heroes went simply enough. But I figured things were recurring, I wish I'd played through and discovered the 'ending' but I read that here.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Again, not as applicable for this scenario. But I think as an ending for an anti-hero (or non ending if one chooses to fight on or leave the story in that state) it's pretty perfect from a thematic perspective.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
I really loved the whole DiD storyline. It's one thing to play the evil factions by putting on the black hat and steamrollering over the opposition, quite another thing to develop an anti-hero as happened here. Probably one of the better games I've ever played as far as that goes.


(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Not being patient or persistent enough to get to the ending (my bad).

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
10, I think a different type of campaign as this demanded a different type of ending and it delivered.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I like it how it is. Scanning through the other reviews there are some interesting suggestions about tying the Della sub-plot in at the end but after considering it I don't think it really fits from a continuity perspective (or a thematic one). Since you can go on for years and years defending the cave there's no certainty she'll be around. Also I think the point is how far the character has fallen so far that humans see no humanity left in him.

Thanks to the developers of this campaign, one of the better things I've ever played.

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Maiklas3000
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 12 - Endless Night

Post by Maiklas3000 » August 6th, 2010, 10:01 am

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Difficult (hard); 1.8.3

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
Kobiyashi Maru.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to heaven, we were all going direct the other way - in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Good. I'd prefer a little different wording, to make it more clear that the program has not gone into an accidental infinite loop. Maybe add a message like "Year X", at the start of each cycle, or incorporate it into the text, like "It has been X years since Malin died and became a lich. And this summer, like every other, the lich has sent his soldiers..." This would also be helpful for bragging rights about how many cycles you lasted.

I loved the ending dialog. It doesn't really fit the normal death-of-Lich, where the Lich thanks the killer, but I'd prefer if all the other dialogs in all the other campaigns were changed to be consistent with DiD's death-of-Lich rather than the other way around. You could perhaps add a line like, "Maybe we did him a favor by killing him. Otherwise, he could have gone on for eternity, fighting anyone who came to this cave."

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
I had to go scrambling to read the "Undead Vs..." threads as each new enemy appeared.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
9

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
The northwest section of the map looks interesting but does not get used. Why not add map to the north, allowing that area to be used for flanking the enemy stronghold? The middle of the map has one major thoroughfare, and then a difficult passage area for flanking. I would make that flanking route easier to get through to make the battles more dynamic.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
Good. It looks like the gold formula for the foolish hero has been changed from 100 + 100 * timesForever to simply 200 * timesForever. I think it's the perfect amount.

All in all, it was the perfect way to end the campaign.

Below are some of the replays. I played versus Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, and Outlaws, who finally put the lich to rest.
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DID-Endless_Night_replay_vs_Outlaws.gz
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DID-Endless_Night_replay_vs_Dwarves.gz
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Thrash
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 12 - Endless Night

Post by Thrash » August 13th, 2010, 3:31 am

Very cute. I made it through 5 heros with my assassinating pair of nightgaunts before second dwarf lord refused to succumb. My lich then sat on a village and went through a number of dwarves before finally being dragged down. (Last replay attached.)

I liked this scenario, very ironic. Campaign overall was very entertaining.
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Lyceq
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 12 - Endless Night

Post by Lyceq » August 25th, 2010, 6:59 am

This is my favorite campaign, by far. While there are some parts that need improvement, as discussed below, I thoroughly enjoyed playing Descent into Darkness. A million thanks to esci and everyone else that worked on it!

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Version 1.8.4 with Evoker difficulty.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
I'd say the difficulty varied considerably between scenarios in the campaign. For example, in Alone at Last it was easy to defeat Darken Volk because he was too busy fighting off Dela and the Paladins were too late to be of any threat. However, A Haunting in Winter was harder due to all of the opponents being faster than mine. Overall I'd rate the campaign as a 6 in difficulty.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
The objectives were clear enough throughout the campaign. I too thought there was a bug when starting Endless Night for a second time with the same opening scene. But I understood what was happening as soon as I saw that it was a different hero.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
This is the area that I feel is in greatest need of improvement. The concepts are all great but much of the dialog needs reworking.

Some points that I love:
- Malin's minions whispering into his ear in order to influence him to darker thoughts and action.
- The foolishness and rashness of Malin, combined with his refusal to recant on a decision once it is made. With this it is easy to believe how one can descend so far into darkness.
- Darken Volks poor diplomatic skills. While he is good at desception, he has a hard time convincing people to do things without resorting to trickery.
- How the ending shows that the Lich can live forever, that Mal's dedication to genocide of the orcs never wavers, and that, in the end, so much time has passed that nobody knows who he was. I'll be that they don't even remember the town of Parthyn. I also think that Dela showing up would ruin this, regardless of whether or not she died in the previous scenario.
- The setup of all of the maps. While perhaps some tweaking is needed, the layouts are great. The breaking of the ice in Beginning of the Revenge was fantastic.
- Every part of Malin becoming a lich. I'm glad that the battle beforehand wasn't played. Forcing a player to lose should not be done. The final scenario works fine because the player doesn't have to lose. He can keep fighting until the cows come home, or he runs out of gold. I think that this part is perfect and shouldn't be changed at all.


Some points that need work:
- After winning the first scenario by defeating the orcs without summoning any walking corpses, Malin says that he is leaving to defeat the Orcs instead of being banished for necromancy. Later dialog refers to him being banished, including dialog that is key to the plot. Perhaps when Drogan talks about Malin not being able to use his men then Malin can rebut with his necromancy skills, leading him to be banished. While this seems foolish for Malin to do, much of what he does is foolish; hence his descent into darkness.
- Dela's death absolutely requires some dialog, particularly since Dela's wounding is used as a motivation for Malin if he doesn't use necromancy on the first scenario. Anger, regret, denial, despair. Any of those would be good reactions for either Malin or Dela. It would also be great if the dialog depended on who was alive at the time of various peoples' deaths, including the paladin. So if the paladin dies while Dela lives then Dela would rebuke Malin for his actions, then Malin argues that it was self defense. If Dela dies and the paladin is alive then he could chime in with how deplorable it is to slay your sibling, driving Malin into further despair. There could be great emotional climaxes here.
- I felt that there could be more dialog from the defenders in the Small Favor series of scenarios. The impression I formed was that the book had not actually been stolen from Darken and that he was tricking Malin into helping him. Some dialog from Lord Karres in particular would be nice.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Any major challenges I faced were of the good sort. Sometimes it was a matter of the terrain being against me, or gold being in short supply, or having a small amount of time to complete the objectives, or having large number of enemies. These challenges are part of what makes a campaign fun. Without them it would be too easy, making victory less satisfying.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
I'd put it at a 9. If the dialog was improved and expanded then I'd put it at a 10. Yes, it really was that fun for me.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
The only changes I'd make are those dialog changes listed in section 4. Oh, and the artwork needs updating. The art designs are fine, but the image quality needs updating.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
There was one time in A Haunting in Winter where I split my troops to fight the bandits and the dwarfs at the same time. This spread me too thin and I had to restart. This was just a poor decision on my part though.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
I scanned through some files and they were clear.

hedges333
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 12 - Endless Night

Post by hedges333 » September 14th, 2010, 5:08 am

Wow, with this hack cheater script, I was able to keep playing this scenario FOREVER. I am truly immortal! ROFL :annoyed:

Seriously though, the multiple levels of irony of this scenario were not lost on me. Suddenly it was 3:00 am on a seemingly endless night, I had become addicted to the game - and to cheating at the game - as the character had become addicted to the dark arts.
Spoiler:
Of course the ending was unsatisfying. That was the whole point and if you didn't get that, you need to find a 12-step recovery group or something because you are in denial!
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Reason: Please use "spoiler" tags instead of color tags for sensitive plot information.

santosis
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 12 - Endless Night

Post by santosis » October 14th, 2010, 4:33 am

I appreciated the uniqueness of the ending, nice touch.

rekuu
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 12 - Endless Night

Post by rekuu » November 26th, 2010, 5:36 am

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
easy + normal, 1.8.5

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
2+ (first round is easy, scales up as you go on)

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
very, although I was unaware that death was the only way to move the plot on to its end.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
perfect. the only proper way to end a story about a lich.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
i wasnt sure i should keep playing until i died. almost quit without getting to the real end.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
9

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
some subtle clue to keep playing would be nice- something like, "how many more years can you keep this up?" when the level resets, or even a counter tracking the years, as an above poster suggested.

i would not add in any more story- like having the main character's sister show up. the whole thing that makes this story so deep is the lack of resolution. besides, there is no reason to assume that his sister is still alive after however many years of fighting orcs.

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sacred_chao
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 12 - Endless Night

Post by sacred_chao » January 1st, 2011, 10:26 am

A minor whinge: By the end of the level I've seized all the villages. At the next wave, they've reverted to neutral again. It doesn't matter a great deal, but it'd be a nice touch if you could carry over the village statuses...
All things are true. Especially false things.

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