Scenario Review: DiD 10 - Alone at Last

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blue
Posts: 26
Joined: July 8th, 2009, 11:43 am

Re: Scenario Review: DiD 10 - Alone at Last

Post by blue » September 1st, 2009, 6:01 pm

1. Evoker (challenging) 1.6.4
2. 8
3. Crystal clear
4. Very nice although Malin sounds like a bit too childish to me here :P
5. Darken attacked the Paladin's army as soon as they came and got killed so i had to take the book from them. Got lucky and lost only 1 unit though but normally i 'd probably be forced to restart the scenario. The second army that came with Malin's sister didnt had any time to attack me
6. 8
7. I would make Darken unable to move from his castle
8. None

Benefuchs
Posts: 54
Joined: February 24th, 2009, 9:40 pm

Re: Scenario Review: DiD 10 - Alone at Last

Post by Benefuchs » October 22nd, 2009, 11:02 pm

(1) medium, 1.6
(2) 6
(3) not quite, I first thought, Malin himself had to kill Darken Volk and get the book
(4) nice story, well said!
(5) Darken Volk is a problem, he will take out one of my L2s every turn he can attack. For the rest I was kinda lucky: My main army went north and fought Darken Volk at the river, while some ghosts grabbed villages and drew part of his army. So when the paladins came, Darken's army stopped them for ~3 turns getting wiped out.
When the sister appeared, it was just one or two more turns to the end, so she was no trouble.
If Darken Volk himself had gone towards the Paladins, it would have been nearly impossible.
(6) 8
(7) no idea
(8) no.
(9) N/A

Syron
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 10 - Alone at Last

Post by Syron » November 25th, 2009, 2:13 am

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Medium - 1.6.4
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8 - Bring the book with 3 armies on us... it was hard :D
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very clear !
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Clear and good story, but no suspense, i knew Darken Volk give up Malin ^^
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
When the 2 others armies was present in north and south ^^
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
6
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
A new Event after the 2 armies to have a little help... or to have a little hope :roll:
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
When the two armies are came. It became hard, so i made a restart and i put my army in north to kill an army in one turn :) After i let paladin to kill the necromancers.
Author of:
- Two Opposing Powers

Zubb
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 10 - Alone at Last

Post by Zubb » November 26th, 2009, 5:17 pm

1.6.4. Hard no save loads.
9/10
clear
poor. Come-out-of-nowhere-unreasonable-uber-army-of-paladins-of-death sucks. as well as an immortal sister.
wiping out the paladins is a major problem, and i had to do it, cause Volk went their way and died in the SE. Cost me four or five 3rd lvl Ghosts. If I'd replay the scenario it can be completed with less trouble/losses.
2/10
Oh God. That scenario is bad. 1st Huge, almost unbeatable, and completely unreasonable army of Paladins that arrives out of nowhere. Even being ambushed by an Orc Horde would feel better. 2nd Volk is a weak puppy. He can't put up a proper fight and he is supposed to be a master-necromancer-with-a-great-necromancy-book. Make him harder. Make him sick, give him a smaller castle and tons of gold. Make him rise as a Lich after being killedd. And stop master-necromancer-blah-blah from running around trying to cold blast a ghoul. Make him stationary in his evil tower. 3rd Flaming Immortal Sister. I hate her. I want to kill here. I put up a hell of a fight to get to her and i just can't hit here. This sucks.

senjin
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Joined: January 1st, 2010, 3:24 pm

Re: Scenario Review: DiD 10 - Alone at Last

Post by senjin » January 1st, 2010, 4:58 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.6.5, normal

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8
I imagine that it is very hard to beat the scenario if you don't know about paladins and Dela incoming. Also when you adjust your strategy it is still very hard to resist paladin/lightmage attacks. It makes the scenario a bit random.


(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
clear, no problems

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
ok, maybe except dialogue with Dela, which seems to be not very emotional

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
1. mages of 2 and 3 level. Not very easy to kill and deadly to all undead units. 2. paladins - also deadly, but easier to kill.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7. Fun but a bit too random - especially when you have to pick up the book and escape... you succeed, or not...

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
It was very strange, that Dela is indestructible. It could be understandable if she appeared in some later scenario (which would be fun!), but she doesn't.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Paladins/mages attacks, and my attempt to kill Dela.

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stupidjaguar
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 10 - Alone at Last

Post by stupidjaguar » January 1st, 2010, 10:38 pm

In theory, an ideal strategy here would be to distract Volk's troops until the Paladin shows up, and then have the Paladin and Volk go for each other, have them finish each other off, and go in for the kill. If you park yourself near Dela you can surround her without too much trouble. Then, go in for Volk, pick up and book, and have your other units flank you. In theory.

What I have found happens much of the time is that the Paladin's troops are simply too powerful and they chop Volk up, leaving several white mages, mages of light, and paladins to then come after me.
I am of two minds; I shall be complete when I can bring them into harmony.

mish
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 10 - Alone at Last

Post by mish » January 9th, 2010, 5:05 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

Intermediate

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

9

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Pretty clear, though it would have been nice to know about having to carry the book back to the castle and not use a ghost from the start

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Quite clear dialog, nice bit of storyline, though the content of the dialog could probably be improved a little, as others have pointed out.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

As for others - 3 major armies. In the end I worked out I could send my shadow and nightgaunt to 'greet' the paladin force. So I managed to kill the paladin leader before he did any recruitment, leaving 2 paladin and a mage of light. Some of Darken's forces had been coming to get my ghosts so they immediately got involved in fighting the remaining paladin and I did not have to fight any of them. I did have to fight about half of Darken's forces, but managed to do that without major loss. Malin got to the book as the sister's forces were crossing the river and most of my troops died covering Malin's rear as he fled back to the castle. So hard but doable.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

9 - a real challenge.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

First time round the appearance of all the extra armies made my position untenable.

Agroagro
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 10 - Alone at Last

Post by Agroagro » May 7th, 2010, 9:08 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
I played on evoker. Wesnoth 1.8.1
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
10
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Tho its clear you have to kill your master and get the book its not clear how exactly to do so and its not clear you will get ambushed twice
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
The dialog was mediocre imo. But I dont mean bad, just not overly special.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The surprises; I thought I was doing ok then slam paladins one hitting thinks left and right. The level just didnt seem like it was going to go that route.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
1, I abandoned the campaign after trying this scenario a couple times.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I would make it more clear whats going to happen. Id also make the extra teams not so strong. Id rather not have to replay levels over and over. And It doesnt feel like strategy I use knowledge that im going to be ambushed to beat the level as some people here have suggested. you should be able to approach things normally, get ambushed, adapt and have a decent chance of survival.
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Paladins wrecking everything I had on the field. If that wanst enough a third army comes out of nowhere.
(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
I do not know WML

Duncan-Idaho
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 10 - Alone at Last

Post by Duncan-Idaho » June 2nd, 2010, 1:25 pm

1) Easy and 1.8
2) 10, is ridiculous hard that when you need most that volk stays on his camp , he goes and goes kamikaze.
3) Confusing.
4) i found it a little confusing, darken just calls malin a fool and then he just attacks volken
5) Getting the book, due to the fact that darken loves to let himself to be killed by the paladins, not many of your units stand a
chance
6) 7, its a good challenge but when paladins come in its quite unfun 0 with paladins
7) first remove dark sorcerers from volken recruitment list, make paladins show up on turn 10th, and when volken dies make
malin cast a spell to remove the control of the enemy undead and force them to your side, with the loyal trait, also the random
unit that shows up at the start of the stage make him loyal
8 ) The paladins they are quite broken due to how easy they slay your troops

KingsIndian
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Joined: June 6th, 2010, 12:14 am

Re: Scenario Review: DiD 10 - Alone at Last

Post by KingsIndian » June 6th, 2010, 12:32 am

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.8.0, Medium
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
10 - I haven't been able to beat it without cheating with the debug thing posted earlier. One of my friends beat it only by occupying Dela's hex so she couldn't recruit.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Pretty clear.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Pretty good, although like others, I think Dela's part in the story could be developed further. To be honest, I wouldn't even mind if she were removed from this scenario entirely; she adds nothing to it, really. Another thing I don't get is, what is there to stop Cadaeus' men from taking the book after killing Volk? Surely, they'd do that in real life to stop it from falling into Malin's hands.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario? Getting Volk to do sufficient damage to Cadaeus to allow me to get the book. I just couldn't manage it.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? 1. A right pain.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun? Give Cadaeus a couple more units to start with, but disable his recruiting, in order to balance it out a bit. To compensate, some of the other scenarios should be made a bit harder.
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
First time I played, Cadaeus' arrival did. Second time, Dela's arrival did. Third time, not using enough non-bat/ghost units did. Every subsequent time, Cadaeus cutting Volk to pieces did.
(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
Don't know any WML.

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Maiklas3000
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 10 - Alone at Last

Post by Maiklas3000 » August 4th, 2010, 5:48 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Difficult (hard); 1.8.3; 228 starting gold

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
9.9

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
I wasn't sure if I had to bring the book to the keep or to any castle hex. (It turns out, it's the latter.)

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Okay, but if Volk dies before the player ever engages his forces, which is pretty easy to happen, then when the player does engage one of Volk's remaining units, there will be a one-sided conversation with Malin talking to a now dead Volk, who does not talk back.

I need more motivation for why Malin should want to fight to death over this book, which he only just now learned is valuable and still doesn't know what information it contains. I think it would be better if Volk had tempted Malin with the power of the book, claiming they could rule the world together with its knowledge, rather than claiming the book only had sentimental value, and so then when Volk runs off with the book, Malin would reasonably react violently.

I need more motivation in the whole campaign for why Dela is so homicidal towards her brother. Why should a little necromancy stand in the way of family bonds? I suggest making Drogan her fiance, which would give her motivation to hate Malin for killing him.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The situation is dire when facing Volk's forces, hopeless when Sir Cadaeus' forces roll over Volk's and into yours, and ridiculous when Dela starts recruiting.

The scenario requires precise puppetmastering, moving units to encourage Volk's units to go where you want. It requires many attempts to get it right.

Although I was thinking of doing it intentionally, I accidentally blocked Dela's central keep hex one time, and then when I saw how good this was, I repeated it on subsequent attempts. I don't see how you could win without this, especially given that you cannot kill Dela.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
6

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
The scenario is waaaay too hard. Reduce the gold to Sir Cadaeus and especially Dela. Add several burly guards to Dela, as you did with Sir Cadaeus, to prevent blocking her from her keep.

Dela can be wounded and killed by Volk's forces, but not by the player's. This is buggy and it's been buggy for a long time. Fix it! There's no reason Dela can't die at this point, and she should not have been made immortal even before this scenario. I suggest bringing in her sister "Stella" to fill her role, if Dela should fall in a previous scenario.

There should not be an infinite turn limit.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Many failures, restarting from turn 1.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
Well commented.

* * *

The replay below is 200 turns long.

Turns 1-4: I sent a small fast group to the Southeast to pull Volk's units towards where Cadaeus would appear. I sent a four unit squad due north, with the goal of blocking Dela from her keep and to go for the book if possible. Then, without spending all my gold, I sent Malin on a trip due south to nowhere, again to pull Volk's units South.

Turns 5-19: Cadaeus' forces pulled Volks' units away from mine. I used a Dark Sorcerer to block Dela from her keep. I returned Malin to his keep and started recruiting again, heavy on Walking Corpses this time. Volk had levelled up and was hanging around, so I killed him myself on turn 18.

Turns 20-99: After Sir Cadaeus' forces were almost eliminated, I kept him alive and tried to level up troops. About turn 20 is where you want to stop watching, as it would be both boring to you and embarassing to me, as I do a rather incompetent job of trying to level units.

Turns 100-200. Late in the game, Sir Cadaeus switched to Volk's old keep, and meanwhile I realized that I could poison him and he wouldn't commit suicide. A combination of Bats and Walking Corpses made it easy to handle his recruitments, mostly Mages, while giving the kills to Ghosts and other units I wanted to level. I started the scenario with a weak roster containing just one level 3 unit and one level 2 unit(!) I ended the scenario with lots of level 2 and 3 units. And I have 595 starting gold for the next scenario.
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Thrash
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 10 - Alone at Last

Post by Thrash » August 12th, 2010, 10:38 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

1.8.3, Hard, 210 starting gold

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

10, pretty much impossible without doing BS (standing on Dela keep so she can't recruit).

I tried playing it a half dozen times without reading these postings and the wiki and got nowhere. Then I read the wiki and other posts and by blocking Dela I was at least able to start making a run of it.

Basically I did the block Dela from recruiting, avoid Darken and let him engage the paladins and then just hope there was enough mutual destruction that I was able to sneak in and grab the book and get out. Still lost several lvl 3/2 units in the process.

There is a lot of luck in how much Darken is able to hurt the paladins before he dies. Sometimes Darken puts a real dent into the paladins, but other times he's just blown away and then you are left facing 4 paladins backed with a half dozen white mages and I couldn't even make a go of of when that happened (and that's with Dela out of the mix!)

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

OK.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

It's a really cool storyline, just wish it wasn't so over the top hard.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

In order:

Not getting killed by Cadeaus.
Not getting killed by Darken.
Not getting killed by Dela.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

3. At first I though "Cool!" but then it turns into a game of minute movements and gamemanship.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Dela showing up is just way over the top. Between her and Cadeaus, it's a massive force you are up against (assuming you manage to avoid engagement by Darken, which is not a given.)

Alternately weaken the paladins a fair amount - they are just a beast right now.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

Dozens.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?

It's OK, perhaps a little light.
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Maiklas3000
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 10 - Alone at Last

Post by Maiklas3000 » August 13th, 2010, 7:46 am

The changelog for 1.8.4 claims to make this scenario a little easier and to make Dela killable by the player. A big thank you to Santi or whoever listened to the players and tried to make it easier.

I played this scenario again (on hard) and browsed the WML to see the changes. In 1.8.3, the paladin would come on turn 5, 6, or 7, for hard, medium, and easy, respectively. Personally, I strongly suspected that it's harder when the paladin comes later. This is because for the first few turns the player is just running from Volk's vastly superior forces, partially for self-preservation, but mostly to preserve Volk's forces, because you want Volk to put a dent in the paladin's forces, which are vastly superior to Volk's. The revised scenario has the paladin come on turn 6, 7, or 8, for hard, medum, and easy, respectively. So that's later than before, and hence harder, I believe, especially for the poor folks on easy. I was still able to almost completely avoid combat with Volk's forces on hard, but players playing this scenario for the first time would wind up in heavy combat with Volk, only to get steam rollered by fresh paladins.

Despite my efforts to preserve Volk's forces, his forces were utterly crushed by the paladins, and the paladin juggernaut was headed towards my leader.

And that's when Dela shows up. Well, on hard or easy. Dela used to show up on turn 9, 10, or 11 for hard, medium, and easy, respectively. Now she shows up on turn 9, 2, or 11, for hard, medium, and easy, respectively. That's right: turn 2 on medium. It looks suspiciously like a typo in the WML.

I sent a lone Dark Sorcerer to sit on Dela's keep hex, only to find that it has been moved. Doh! So she was able to recruit a swarm of Swordsmen. I had been recruiting mostly Walking Corpses: good for Mages, but no match for Swordsmen. My forces were crushed by Dela's and the paladin's, and I never had enough of an opening to go for the book.

The gold and income for the paladins and Dela is unchanged. For Volk, gold has been reduced from 430 to 400 or 370, for medium or easy, respectively (still at 430 for hard.) I believe this would make it harder on easy or medium than on hard. Again, we need Volk to put a dent in the paladin forces. At least the way I play the scenario, I hardly fight Volk at all, so reducing his gold only leaves more paladin forces to attack me.

Note that at the start of this scenario, my roster was in shambles. I think I had only two level 2's and one level 3 unit. Therefore, I'm not the best one to judge the absolute difficulty of this scenario.

However, I suspect that most of the changes will make the scenario relatively more difficult in 1.8.4 compared to 1.8.3. Additionally, I suspect there are problems in the relative difficulties of easy, medium, and hard, with hard being possibly the easiest. But thanks again for trying.

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zookeeper
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 10 - Alone at Last

Post by zookeeper » August 13th, 2010, 8:38 am

Maiklas3000 wrote:And that's when Dela shows up. Well, on hard or easy. Dela used to show up on turn 9, 10, or 11 for hard, medium, and easy, respectively. Now she shows up on turn 9, 2, or 11, for hard, medium, and easy, respectively. That's right: turn 2 on medium. It looks suspiciously like a typo in the WML.
Damn. :hmm: Yeah, that was a typo, which I did fix in trunk but somehow screwed up porting it to 1.8. Sorry about that.

As for all the rest, I guess I'll have to do some more proper playtesting. Considering that the scenario is basically a 4-way free-for-all, nerfing a side might indeed just make things harder for the player...

Thrash
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 10 - Alone at Last

Post by Thrash » August 13th, 2010, 2:19 pm

zookeeper wrote:As for all the rest, I guess I'll have to do some more proper playtesting. Considering that the scenario is basically a 4-way free-for-all, nerfing a side might indeed just make things harder for the player...
I think calling it a 4-way is a mischaracterization, at least to me, as it plays more like a 2-on-2, with the player using Volk against the Paladins and Dela (who I believe are explicitly allies?). So weakening Volk makes it harder.

My belief is the Paladins especially need to be weakened (and probably Dela, but I blocked her from recruiting, so I don't really know).

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