Scenario Review: SotBE 8 - Silent Forest

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Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 8 - Silent Forest

Postby Ninjuri » June 18th, 2012, 6:44 am

Challenging 1.10.2
Difficulty: 5
Objectives: 100% clear
Dialogue/Storyline: Kapaue was talking to himself after landing the finishing blow on the first elf. I believe the map assumes that one of the other units lands the firstblood, in which case that unit would be talking to Kapaue.
Challenges: Having my units spread thin, trying to cover as much ground as possible.
Fun: 7
Changes: None
Reloads/Restarts: None
Fate is against me.
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Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 8 - Silent Forest

Postby line » August 14th, 2012, 6:24 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Warlord (Nightmare) 1.10.3
100 starting gold (enemies: ?)
Finished turn 24/36

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
3. Similar to Hammer of Thursagan, Forbidden Forest – if the elves would make use of their advantage in the woods and considering that you will most likely start with minimum gold (what equals 5 recalls) this one would be hard to beat. So you just line up outside the wood, kill the elves dropping out of the wood and then march in.
The AI is still stupid enough to melee attack Kapou’e with a shaman, instead of using the slowing ranged attack. It’s obviously the bigger damage (the shaman is strong, therefore melee 4-2, ranged 3-2) but the counter-attack in this round as well as in the one after is obviously not taken into the calculation. (Even worse was the melee-attack of a shaman against Grüü. Grüü was slowed, but the shaman was 4-2 melee and 4-2 ranged – and picked the melee attack!) I think there are threads about redesigning the AI, but I do not know any details. I think things with consequences in the round after the attack, like poisoning or slowing, should be taken into the AI’s calculation.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Clear.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Archers nearly got a shaman running around my defense. Trying to give the kills to the low-level-units.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
5. The elves are stupid.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Give the elves worse terrain but better AI. E. g. make the paths leading through the forest and to the castles three hexes wide.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
None.
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Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 8 - Silent Forest

Postby PorkSol » April 6th, 2013, 3:05 am

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

1.10.6 - Warlord - (Nightmare) - No save/load - 100 starting gold - replay shows 70, but 100 is the minimum

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

4 for an efficient win

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Fine.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Torture scene was interesting if a bit too polite. It is good to see us acting like orcs for once.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Not much.

I recruited some powerful units, headed south to the small castle, killed the leader, recruited a bit more (probably not needed) and headed to the big castle. Finished 19 turns early.

You can only lose if you let shamans die or start over due to the loss of a veteran.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

7 - I liked the map and I liked the chance to fight elves. But a bigger fight would have been interesting.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

I'd like to see a bigger and more challenging battle fought here. Give the elves more income and gold, let us start with more gold too. Lower the turn limit. Maybe that bonus gold is needed for the next map, but finishing 19 turns early seems odd. Better AI for the elves could help too. Stay in the forest, don't try to melee great trolls with elvish shamans.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

No reloads, A few restarts when I used the shamans to capture villages or got too aggressive taking villages with my pillager.
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Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 8 - Silent Forest

Postby SBak » September 19th, 2013, 5:28 am

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Challenging (easiest) 1.8.5 and 1.10.5

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
2 - even with minimum gold and only lvl2s on the recall list. The AI gives a very good example of how not to play Elves (see below).

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Unlike some of the others I actually found that this was quite good and the dialogues fitted really well with the main character Kapou'e. Sure the capture dialogue was too coherent and polite for your typical Orcish leader but Kapou'e is smarter than most Orcish leaders, it meshes with Shan Tam the Smug's derision of him and I also feel that to be a great leader you need much more than brute strength.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
To be honest my biggest difficulty was trying to second guess and anticipate how the AI would play the Elves. It really was that bad to be almost dangerous.

The biggest difficulty here is getting the Elves out of the forest in the south west. I found that going down through the centre works best whilst Kapou'e and an Orcish Warrior takes the Shamen round the north. I've got through this with a Troll, Orcish Crossbowman and Orcish Warrior with Jetto to come up against an Elvish Marksmen, Elvish Hero and perhaps an Archer and couple of Shamen.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
2 - not much fun I'm afraid but a mix of amusing and a bit of a let down.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Even on the easiest (Challenging) level this needs to be much much more of a challenge and in fact I do think there needs to be a spike here and a dramatic shift in the difficulty level.

I know from playing Elves that there's certain things you just don't do against Northerners (Orcs) and sadly the AI here does most of them. You don't send an Elvish Shaman alone to any Northerner unit lvl2 or above, and not even to a lvl1 unit except for a few strategic reasons (.e.g to slow the movement or soften the attack of a unit).

You also don't rely on Elvish Marksmen as your primary ranged unit. I know some people use them but my primary ranged unit is the Ranger my secondary is an Elvish Sorceress, not a Marksman because faerie fire is pretty consistent, the Sorceress has the slow ability and I find even defensively she fares better in melee than your average Marksman. Also for the melee value of the Marksman I'd much rather use a Rider or Outrider and have the additional movement points.
In fact I'd even argue that the Elvish Hunter has more use in mainline campaigns than the Elvish Marksmen.

Also why is the second leader an Elvish Shyde?

The AI here needs to be something like the allies in The Elves Besieged in HttT, or even Forbidden Forest in THoT.

Another thing is I've only ever met one lvl1 Wose and it's happened once and was dealt with by an Orcish Warrior and Kapou'e. I'd give both leaders the full Rebels recruit list so they can also recruit Mages, Woses and Mermen Hunters.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
I've lost an Orcish Shaman once but most of my restarts have been caused by disbelief and the feeling that I had won by a sheer fluke.
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Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 8 - Silent Forest

Postby Maiklas3000 » April 25th, 2014, 1:57 pm

This scenario has been changed since the reviews above.

(1) Level and version? Nightmare, 1.11.12 and 1.11.13 (replay is for 1.11.12), 164 starting gold.
(2) How difficult? (1-10) 9.5, the hardest in the campaign so far.
(3) Clear? Clear.
(4) Dialog? Excellent. The interrogation and beheading was great, but see suggested changes below.
(5) Challenges? The scenario was always a bit of a challenge (if not save-reloading) due to Woses popping out of the forest right into your critical and wounded units. Now the scenario has been changed to vastly reduce the number of villages. The enemy forces are overwhelming and dish out intense localized damage with dextrous Marksmen, strong Heroes, and woody Woses supported by Captains. And of course, you have no healers. Finally, if you somehow manage to survive the initial assault and pick off the southwest leader, you will probably run out of time just before you can get to the southeastern leader.

Here is my advice for those trying to beat this scenario:
1. Recruit/recall Trolls and Whelps for self healing, Orcish Archers (maybe one of each level) for burning the Woses and level-healing, and Wolf Riders for healing at widely dispersed villages, slowing Woses (with Pillagers, which I lacked), and assassinating leaders with haste.
2. Although you can set up your line in the woods south of your keep, another option (or a retreat/fall-back option) is to set up camp in the open ground between your keep and the woods.
3. If only a single Elvish Archer or Scout threatens your rear, your Shamen can set up a screening line for safe passage of wounded to the village to the north.
4. Once the initial battle is won, if your force is still strong, split it in two, with one half going going the fastest route southeast through the middle of the board to the southeastern leader.
5. For the southwestern leader, you may instinctively move your troops into his forest. Your instinct is wrong. You know better than to fight Elves in woods. Stick to the north side of the road, to force the trickle of Elves into open ground and maintain forward progress.
6. Keep a close eye on the clock. For the endgame, you may need to rush troops forward, rather than engaging in combat. However, note that the Shyde leader will come out to heal her wounded troops.

(6) Fun? (1-10) 7, not my favorite.
(7) Changes?
1. Since this is the hardest scenario, I say make it easier. To beat it, I had to go back three scenarios to resurrect my Direwolf Rider and loyal Assassin, and then I had to play the previous scenario several times to get maximum gold. I would say 20 more player gold is in order. It will still be a nightmare. I had several losses due to the turn limit (with less gold), but in the end I won on turn 20/24, and it could have easily been turn 19. So, I'd say the turn limit is good.
2. In the dialog about the initial Elf sighting, if Gork is the one with the dialog, then he calls himself by his own name. This is fairly likely to happen; if the loyal Assassin was killed previously, then Gork will likely be the first to get south to within range of the Elves. So trap this in the WML.
3. It seems out of character for Gruu or other troll to interrogate so eloquently. Either simplify the language or make it so that troll line units will eat the Elf rather than interrogate. "Kapou'e: Oh no, you didn't eat the Elf, did you? You were supposed to interrogate him!" "Troll: [burp] Those scorpions in the desert were no good. I was hungry."
4. There are already Woses popping out of the woods and Marksmen popping out of the fog, so why not Rangers popping out of the woods and fog? The AI will level an Archer to Ranger here, so it seems odd that the leaders won't recruit them. And personally, I would like the scenario a lot more without the Marksmen and their 2.5% chance of 45 damage (if dextrous), but if the designer feels they are a necessary challenge, then I can live with that.
(8) Restarts? I can't believe I won without save-reloading! Just normal restarts from start.
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Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 8 - Silent Forest

Postby mattsc » May 8th, 2014, 1:59 am

Just so that it is recorded here: I added the 20 gold for the player on nightmare as per your suggestion for Wesnoth 1.11.14 and later.

The changes to message cannot be done for 1.11/1.12 any more because we are in a string freeze. As for adding rangers, I'm not sure about that, but either way we should not do that without careful play testing, so it might or might not happen in 1.13 (and not in 1.12).
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Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 8 - Silent Forest

Postby Theron » May 10th, 2014, 8:24 am

Nightmare; 1.11.13

Stats:
Scenario, starting gold (default+carryover),turns/max turns,recruits-recalls-advancements-losses-kills
8 100+36 23/24 2-6-3-0-49

Comments:
Scenario 8:
In the past I had only 100-110 gold. So 136 gold seems much but the enemies now have more total gold (440 instead of 250).
I needed a few restarts to get an idea how to play: 136 gold is winnable if you have a proper recall list. But giving the player additional 20 gold won’t break the challenge.
My first reload in the campaign: on turn 23 I missed 11 to-kill-hits on an Elvish Archer (70% defense) and then he scored 4 bow hits on my Troll (40% defense) killing him. So I decided to not use my Troll even if Kapou’e didn’t have killed the archer this time. The former version of the scenario was an opportunity to regain gold and train a few more rookies. Now I had to rely on recalls so I thought I deserve to keep my rookie Troll. (And also killed the Elvish Shyde on turn 23.)
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Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 8 - Silent Forest

Postby sine_nomine » May 1st, 2016, 4:48 am

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Nightmare 1.12.4

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
9.5
150 starting gold

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Clear

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Surviving. Killing things. The time limit.
I tried to fight outside the large forest as much as possible, but I just got overrun by elves and woses a few times.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
The scenario's probably fine as is, but perhaps an extra turn? You'll be negative in gold anyway.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
My resetless streak ended here; I needed a few attempts to beat this scenario. Actually, I won on my second attempt but I had incredibly good luck so I replayed it and continued my run from there.
This is also the point I had played up to previously.
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Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 8 - Silent Forest

Postby ElderofZion » July 26th, 2017, 11:55 am

(1) Nightmare 1.12.2

(2) 9,5
120 starting gold

(3) clear

(4) clear

(5) running out of time/woses

(6) 7

(8) woses/marksmen killing trolls
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