Scenario Review: SotBE 4 - The Siege of Barag Gor

Feedback for the mainline campaign Son of the Black Eye.

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BillytheBabyGoat
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Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 4 - The Siege of Barag Gor

Post by BillytheBabyGoat »

Content Feedback wrote:(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
1. Nightmare.

2. 6.

3. Clear.

4. Interesting enough.

5. Splitting my forces to kill each leader without casualties was interesting.

6. 6. The defense part is fine, the leader hunting bit is a tad annoying.

7. Maybe have the leaders more frontloaded on gold with less income, or have less gold but more elves starting at the center. This should make the defense part longer and the fighting through constant elves in forests shorter.

8. Had a few restarts where the forces I sent to certain corners weren't enough. Ended up finishing on a run with a few vets lost but 2 warlords, a slurbow, a knight, and level 3 gruu.
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taptap
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Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 4 - The Siege of Barag Gor

Post by taptap »

Can't say I feel like the changes (you moved the keep right?) improved this scenario. Starting at dawn next to an elvish keep is just mean. Whereas you had choices before, now you have to power through. Either at daytime or wait til dusk until you break through the elves. Likely it got harder (hard to tell for me since I play on lower difficult this time), but for what price?

The weird move order leads to a special gamey mechanism usually absent in Wesnoth and known more in alternating turn settings. It is almost always better for green to attack non-blue, since blue has already moved this turn and can be handled by red.
I am a Saurian Skirmisher: I'm a real pest, especially at night.
Getsome
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Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 4 - The Siege of Barag Gor

Post by Getsome »

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Difficult 1.12

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
9

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear, but it wasn't until the third or fourth attempt that I figured out that the Slayer could recruit units.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Alright, I don't really play for the dialog or story

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The time limit mostly.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
5? It's a cool scenario, but brutal and kinda feels unfair. I think it could be a 9 easy, but it's pretty frustrating.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
The scenario seems a bit brutal, compared to the previous scenarios especially. I understand that maybe I should lower the difficulty, but I'm stubborn and like the odds stacked against me. My main issue is that you can't really intuit what you need to do to win from the start, and it's hard to estimate the exact pace you need to march your forces to stay within the time limit. You need to try and fail several times to learn how do to it, which is very time consuming given the multiple turns and large number of units. It's easy to lose at turn 8 even if it seems like you're winning, then play for another hour only to run out of time moving through the SW forest.

I have several recommendations, that hopefully would increase clarity, fun and flow without making it strictly easier.

a - Increase the number of spaces for recruitment at the start or reduce the gold for the NE leader to allow you to actually reinforce the city and push from there. Increase the gold of other leaders to compensate. It feels lame having to march your shamans out of the city because there's no way to reach it before its overrun.

b - Buff shamans a bit - a bit more health and slow? Regeneration or heal? It feels lame having to move 3 units that are completely useless in combat because they can't attack without risking death the next turn. You should still need to babysit them, but it would feel better if you could actually use them to pick off weak units, hold a gap in a line for a single turn or debuff enemies.

c - Start the city filled with units but no gold for the leader, maybe make it a little bigger so you have room to move. IMO its just sort of a waste of time having to shuffle units and recruit them on the first turn. Might as well just start the city filled with units.

d - Consider redoing the SW part of the map. It takes so long to cross the water and forest surrounding the keep, that even if you get to the bridge with 5 turns left and minimal enemy forces left you still might not be able to make it to the leader.

e - Maybe just increase the number of turns slightly, like +2 or +3. Or start during the day or at dusk so you can break the initial wave a bit faster.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
To be honest, I haven't beat it yet. Trying it again later today with a new tactic. But for a few attempts, I didn't realize your allies could recruit units. For some of them, the shamans died. I made two excellent attempts only to run out of time. Then I made another two attempts where I split my forces and rushed and took out two leaders but ran out of time for the SW leader. Ended up quitting in frustration.

All in all, I look forward to finally beating this. Scenario is great in concept but it feels like its very vulnerable to luck and it's easy to lose but not know it early into the game. I can't play elves anymore thanks to the hatred of them this map has induced in me :augh:
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max_torch
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Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 4 - The Siege of Barag Gor

Post by max_torch »

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Nightmare, 1.12.6, 209 starting gold

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
10

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Interesting to learn that the orcs actually have ancient lore being guarded by shamans. I like the funny lines from Gruu.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Everything. This scenario deserves the title of "nightmare"
  • The initial siege starts with elves already getting in the city and they are pretty difficult to get rid of with the terrain bonus. You have to make sure you get rid of them quickly in order to maximize the size of the defending army because Green side's money is going down every turn, and elves standing on fort hexes means one less space for recruiting. Afterwards you have to make sure to keep units to gain some unit advancements for green.
  • You have to find a way to utilize the fragile shamans
  • You have to find a way to send some kind of support from Kapoue's side to the city even before you've dealt with the top right enemy.
  • After surviving the siege you have to branch out and split your army and all of the enemy leaders are lvl 3 and tough to bring down :augh:
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
I suppose it's 10 for me. After all I'm a guy who likes Dark Souls 8)

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I don't know what I would want to change.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Oh yes. Just the event that I initially enter this scenario with not much gold meant I had to restart from the first scenario..
Bad luck with the initial siege and not successfully getting rid of all elves in the city quickly was the cause of some restarts. Mismanaging my units when they were already on the way to kill the last three leaders also caused restarts.

Here I am just enjoying the campaign so far and then this scenario comes along and slaps me in the face. I'm not sure I could have won this if I did not look at replays from this thread. Even having seen others win the scenario it still remains challenging. Anyway, I'm proud to say that I won this scenario without load-save and you should be proud too if you can win this.
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LordWolfDan
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Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 4 - The Siege of Barag Gor

Post by LordWolfDan »

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

- 1.14.5, Challenging

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

- 6

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

- Pretty clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

- Very good, as we see elves being portrayed as the mercenaries for humans is a nice touch. Moreover, the introduction of Jetto is pretty amusing and welcome

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

- Making sure no important unit of mine gets killed

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

- 8

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

- It's quite fine

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

- No
Konrad2
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Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 4 - The Siege of Barag Gor

Post by Konrad2 »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

1.15.1, Warlord (Nightmare), 140g (+ 150g human controlled ally)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

10, damn, this was hard. Welp.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Clear.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Somehow dealing with the overhelming number of elves while having so few units and turns.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

7

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

-

Scenario stats:
Spoiler:
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Kylix
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Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 4 - The Siege of Barag Gor

Post by Kylix »

  • Jetto should have a death dialogue, I imagined a thing like "Assassins, even if I'm dying, go on with our mission!"
  • He should be the only Assassin who can evolve into an Orcish Nightblade.
17229_walker
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Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 4 - The Siege of Barag Gor

Post by 17229_walker »

I would like to make a formal complaint regarding this scenario as well. On nightmare mode, version 1.14.17. Here are the main.problems many have listed, and require adjustments.
1. Weak shamans. Poor attack, require heavy babysitting and are extremely fragile. No healing, no magical attacks...just what are these shamans if they cant heal or cast spells?
2. Numerous enemies. Sure, level 1's might seem easy, but when they are twice your number it becomes extremely difficult. With each elf attacking 4 times, your orcs are soon overcome by sheer weight of numbers.
3. Level 3 Bosses. After battling through mountains of tree lovers, you cant even tempt a single marshall out of his keep. I even dangled a low health archer right outside his keep, and he didnt budge.
4. Turn limit. A siege takes time, so naturallu lifting it takes time too.
5. Ridiculous conditions. Where are the orc reinforcements? How are there so many elves? Shouldnt it be enough just to hold out until the big orcs come?
Overall, I would like this scenario to be adjusted, or at least, receive some changes to make it possible.
Thanks.
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egallager
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Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 4 - The Siege of Barag Gor

Post by egallager »

Kylix wrote: May 4th, 2020, 4:46 pm
  • Jetto should have a death dialogue, I imagined a thing like "Assassins, even if I'm dying, go on with our mission!"
  • He should be the only Assassin who can evolve into an Orcish Nightblade.
Are you thinking Jetto's death dialogue should be only in this scenario, or throughout the campaign?
17229_walker wrote: October 30th, 2021, 3:42 pm I would like to make a formal complaint regarding this scenario as well. On nightmare mode, version 1.14.17. Here are the main.problems many have listed, and require adjustments.
1. Weak shamans. Poor attack, require heavy babysitting and are extremely fragile. No healing, no magical attacks...just what are these shamans if they cant heal or cast spells?
Well I gave them magical attacks in SotBEEE at least...
2. Numerous enemies. Sure, level 1's might seem easy, but when they are twice your number it becomes extremely difficult. With each elf attacking 4 times, your orcs are soon overcome by sheer weight of numbers.
3. Level 3 Bosses. After battling through mountains of tree lovers, you cant even tempt a single marshall out of his keep. I even dangled a low health archer right outside his keep, and he didnt budge.
4. Turn limit. A siege takes time, so naturallu lifting it takes time too.
5. Ridiculous conditions. Where are the orc reinforcements? How are there so many elves? Shouldnt it be enough just to hold out until the big orcs come?
Overall, I would like this scenario to be adjusted, or at least, receive some changes to make it possible.
Thanks.
KK188
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Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 4 - The Siege of Barag Gor

Post by KK188 »

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.14 and 1.16.0. 255 starting gold for 1.16.0(I had about 190 for 1.14 but much stronger recall list).
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

It was 9 for 1.14(due to my abnormally strong recall list) and solid 8 for 1.16, as the scenario was much easier and fairer compared to 1.14 version.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

clear

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Defending the city.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

8.5 for 1.14 and 9 for newest version.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

A great scenario, but give shaman magical attack so they are less of a liability.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

Putting my shamans at risk.
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Kylix
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Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 4 - The Siege of Barag Gor

Post by Kylix »

egallager wrote: October 31st, 2021, 11:37 pm
Kylix wrote: May 4th, 2020, 4:46 pm
  • Jetto should have a death dialogue, I imagined a thing like "Assassins, even if I'm dying, go on with our mission!"
  • He should be the only Assassin who can evolve into an Orcish Nightblade.
Are you thinking Jetto's death dialogue should be only in this scenario, or throughout the campaign?

Throughout the campaign, obviously.
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Kylix
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Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 4 - The Siege of Barag Gor

Post by Kylix »

Kylix wrote: December 2nd, 2021, 8:39 am
egallager wrote: October 31st, 2021, 11:37 pm
Kylix wrote: May 4th, 2020, 4:46 pm
  • Jetto should have a death dialogue, I imagined a thing like "Assassins, even if I'm dying, go on with our mission!"
  • He should be the only Assassin who can evolve into an Orcish Nightblade.
Are you thinking Jetto's death dialogue should be only in this scenario, or throughout the campaign?
Throughout the campaign, obviously.
mal_shubertal
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Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 4 - The Siege of Barag Gor

Post by mal_shubertal »

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.16.6 Nightmare
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
10. Absolutely brutal. I got stuck on this scenario a few versions ago and quit the whole campaign, but either I've gotten better or it's been rebalanced, so I was able to finally figure it out after 10+ attempts.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
very
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
I love the dialogue in this scenario. The elf specific insults ('wose-born' and 'mule-ears'), the developing dynamic between Kapoue and Gruu and Vrag, and the way Kapoue sort of outsmarts the elf and gets him to admit he's a mercenary are all great. And "I have a subtle plan, chief" is my favorite line in the whole game. I only wish all Gruu's lines could be as good.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Everything. Figuring out how to use your ally's gold effectively, deciding what mix of units to recruit with each of your teams, maximizing your healing with limited villages, deciding when to play more passively and when to get more aggressive, deciding which leaders to go after first, figuring out how to exploit the turn order so your teams can cooperate. As other people have noted, this scenario can get really frustrating because if you play too conservatively, you can reach turn ~15-20 and realize that you're in a commanding position but you don't have enough time to mop up all the enemy leaders.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
10. But right up until I beat it, it was a 1, lol. Like all the best Wesnoth campaign scenarios, it's a puzzle, and either you feel super smart when you figure it out, or you feel completely frustrated if you don't. In the end, the strategy that worked for me was going very heavy on troll whelps with Kapoue and 100% archers with the ally, shuffling around my ally's forces so I could spend all my gold on the first turn (14 archers), and very scrupulously feeding xp to the whelps and intelligent archers until I had a mass of trolls and crossbowmen.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I would change the shamans. They have such ridiculously low hp right now that even if they just range attack a regular elvish fighter, it could do 9 damage to them in retaliation and then 20 damage to them the next turn, and they die! I play without reloading mid-scenario, so I never used them at all because it was too risky. If they just had 30 hp that would be a big improvement. It would be even better if they had some kind of aura ability, so they could have a support role during the siege instead of just getting in everyone's way. Healing might be too powerful, but maybe like whatever the opposite of illumination would be ('darkening'?), or some other buff effect.
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Just losing, usually by either running out of time, or losing too many units because I was playing too aggressively. Finding the balance was HARD.
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