Scenario 13: The Return of Trouble

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santi
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Re: Scenario Review: DM 13 - The Return of Trouble

Post by santi » December 25th, 2009, 2:23 pm

The reference is to another campaign, Legend of Wesmere(LOW) which ends in a balance of terror where no side
(orcs, humans or elves) has to power to win. So kalenz reorganizes the army and retires, In Delf's time, a new strong leader has emerged to unite the orcs, so they attack humans and elves again. In fact as far as humans go, we learn that this is a deliberate orcish plan, so that garrisons along the frontier are under constant pressure and cannot come to the aid of the King. Meanwhile, the elves send their army to support their settlements under attack and Kalenz, who is far from a puny leader -you can find his credentials in LoW- leads the troops. So I see no loss of continuity or need for more explanation.
You may have the same questions about the scepter of fire in HttT, but you can play through its history in The Rise of Wesnoth, Legend of Wesmere, Scepter of fire and this campaign.

benwulf
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Re: Scenario Review: DM 13 - The Return of Trouble

Post by benwulf » April 4th, 2010, 8:14 pm

santi wrote:I was just asking if you got the latest version from trunk. Meanwhile, try this: This is a savegame from the last round. Finish it, then look at the replay. Maybe that will work
This as well as the other saved replay appear corrupted when being replayed with the latest 1.8 version.
Like others in this thread I am stuck after losing this level at least 5 times. I do think there is a difficulty issue as I could finish most of the other levels of the campaign the first time around (the exception being the level House of the dead).

I'm going to give it another try right now.

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Re: Scenario Review: DM 13 - The Return of Trouble

Post by Majki-Fajki » April 15th, 2010, 10:21 am

1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Medium.
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
It's nice. Except that Ork leaders have nothing to say.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Be quick enough to kill the nearest leader before troops of other ork leaders come too close. After that scenario turns into classic survive-first-clash-than-counterattack.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
10. This scenario is true ork war. Waves after waves of green bastards. Love it - the pressusre of the enemy troops gives a lot of pleasure.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Hm. Maybe goblins :twisted: Additional objective, the other elf leader can't get killed?
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Famous Wesnoth-luck-factor :cry:
(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
N/A

cph
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Re: Scenario Review: DM 13 - The Return of Trouble

Post by cph » April 20th, 2010, 11:31 pm

(1) Great Mage, 1.8.0
(2) 8; several attempts needed, and a couple of save-loads and heavy losses on the successful attempt.
(3) Clear.
(4) Clear. Not sure why I'm meant to be interested in this battle at all - it's a generic elves vs orcs interlude (as far as you know until the end of the scenario).

"his is the tale called the Legend of Wesmere" seems clumsy and breaks the fourth wall a bit (feels like a reference to another campaign). A more poetic description could fix that perhaps - "his tale, the Legend of Wesmere, is known throughout the Elven lands..."

(5) Half my strength is in the ally, who is as usual useless except as a distraction; but the enemy AIs concentrate on me as my camp is pretty much in the middle of a triangle of enemy camps (and not in the centre of a wood, so their troops can get to me more easily), so the ally isn't that good a distraction even. Hordes of L2 enemies, and no real safe terrain under my control as they are all around me; and so they will have most of the villages and produce a steady stream of reinforcements too, as well as being able to heal their units. I can't even get best value for my initial gold - I want to get my troops into the woods of course, but the closeness of the east enemy means many of the third castle set of recruits get chopped up in the open ground crossing to the wood.

(6) 3. I don't like having my army wiped clean for the 3rd time, don't like losing the central character for one that doesn't seem related to my campaign so far, and I don't like starting with unknown L2 units - I prefer to build my own army. On the plus side, it's challenging enough that I'm relieved and glad to have beaten it.

(8) Losing Kalenz while being annihilated on the first attempt.

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santi
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Re: Scenario Review: DM 13 - The Return of Trouble

Post by santi » April 21st, 2010, 5:16 am

Not sure why I'm meant to be interested in this battle at all - it's a generic elves vs orcs interlude (as far as you know until the end of the scenario)
Because it ties together a number of stories:
-why are the orcs also attacking(as Lleolyn had mentioned)
-how come Delf is so friendly with the elves that Kalenz himself joins him in HttT
-how come Delf is able to save his king(with what? the troops he gets at Parthyn? Where was he going to get more troops?)
and many others... just play on...
but the enemy AIs concentrate on me as my camp is pretty much in the middle of a triangle of enemy camps (and not in the centre of a wood, so their troops can get to me more easily)
If you play on hard, as I do, and you realize the terrain is unfavorable, you do NOT need to stay in your keep; recruit all you can and take the eastern's commander's keep.
but the closeness of the east enemy means many of the third castle set of recruits get chopped up in the open ground crossing to the wood
Then you are not setting up your ZoCs correctly.
I don't like having my army wiped clean for the 3rd time, don't like losing the central character for one that doesn't seem related to my campaign so far, and I don't like starting with unknown L2 units - I prefer to build my own army
You do not have your army wiped clean. On the contrary, you just earned yourself a new army. Doesn't seem related? Just play on. Starting with unknown L2 units? Actually I never recruit anything except L1 units in this scenario, because the elves do not have a veteran army scenariowise.

cph
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Re: Scenario Review: DM 13 - The Return of Trouble

Post by cph » April 21st, 2010, 7:47 am

santi wrote:
but the enemy AIs concentrate on me as my camp is pretty much in the middle of a triangle of enemy camps (and not in the centre of a wood, so their troops can get to me more easily)
If you play on hard, as I do, and you realize the terrain is unfavorable, you do NOT need to stay in your keep; recruit all you can and take the eastern's commander's keep.
Yes I moved entirely into the woods after recruiting; but the enemy's forces east and west are most likely to converge on me, as they can see me and get to me easier than the ally deep in the woods - that's my point.

I gave up on an early knockout of the east leader - he seems to start with as much gold as I do, and he isn't sending many units in any direction other than towards me. His open flank is the mountains which don't suit my troops. Instead I just got a unit onto his keep to stop him recruiting and let him scrap with the ally's units. My forces are too busy to take him out.
santi wrote:
but the closeness of the east enemy means many of the third castle set of recruits get chopped up in the open ground crossing to the wood
Then you are not setting up your ZoCs correctly.
My point is that it's unavoidable to have units in the open on turn 4 (in my approach of crossing everyone into the woods), even if they are in a well ZoCed arrangement, when the lead enemies from SW will be arriving and the enemies from E are all over them, so my recruits are getting battered before they even reach their positions. In a way I quite like that particular feature of the level - it's a no-mercy start with no breathing room at all - but it certainly doesn't make it easy.
santi wrote:
I don't like having my army wiped clean for the 3rd time, don't like losing the central character for one that doesn't seem related to my campaign so far, and I don't like starting with unknown L2 units - I prefer to build my own army
You do not have your army wiped clean. On the contrary, you just earned yourself a new army. Doesn't seem related? Just play on. Starting with unknown L2 units? Actually I never recruit anything except L1 units in this scenario, because the elves do not have a veteran army scenariowise.
Well, I've had my army wiped clean 2 times, I assume permanently, so I can only guess that it's happening again. I'm entirely new to the campaign and writing up my thoughts as I play each level. Perhaps I'm to get them back, but I don't know that yet.

Yes I went for recruiting mainly L1 units in the end; just L2 for druids and captains to be the backbone.

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santi
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Re: Scenario Review: DM 13 - The Return of Trouble

Post by santi » April 21st, 2010, 11:55 am

I've had my army wiped clean 2 times, I assume permanently
Should I spoil it? You assume wrong.
My point is that it's unavoidable to have units in the open on turn 4 (in my approach of crossing everyone into the woods), even if they are in a well ZoCed arrangement, when the lead enemies from SW will be arriving and the enemies from E are all over them, so my recruits are getting battered before they even reach their positions
Not necessarily. Part of Wesnoth tactics is to delay your opponents by usingexpendable units. Also, some of the terrain to the east of your keep (in the open) is hilly, which is not ideal, but not too bad for elves either.
I gave up on an early knockout of the east leader - he seems to start with as much gold as I do, and he isn't sending many units in any direction other than towards me
That's your call. I always concentrate on taking him out first, so I can operate from as far as the war as possible and recruit when my gold catches up again. You will not get a knock out in 2-3 turns, but eventually you will, because you have also help from the ally in addition to better terrain and hopefully better strategy and tactics.
But if one is playing on hard, the scenario should be no walk in the park.

Gerion
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Re: Scenario Review: DM 13 - The Return of Trouble

Post by Gerion » May 2nd, 2010, 2:06 am

1) Medium
(2) 8-9. So far the most difficult scenario, but it is definitely not impossible. I recruited until my money was gone and retreated to the forest. If done right it is possible to keep most units alive. The allied forces were not as useless as in most scenarios. They even werw quite useful in delaying the opponents until I killed the easternmost chief
(3) Clear enough
(4) It explains some things
(5) reaching the forest to fight from favorable terrain
(6) 5. It is more or less just good old "kill the orcs"
(7) Maybe more dialogue for the orcs? They are quite generic
(8) no

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Re: Scenario Review: DM 13 - The Return of Trouble

Post by shadowblack » July 6th, 2010, 12:39 pm

1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
1.8.2, Mage (Normal/Medium/whatever you call it)

What the… oh, hi there, Kalenz! Nice to see you again! How have you being?

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
Initially 7, but goes down to 5 and even less as the battle progresses

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Very interesting, especially the ending dialog. So that’s who Chantal is!

I really liked how the story connects with Legend of Wesmere (and Heir to the Throne, if my guess is correct). I can’t wait to see how things will continue!

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Holding off Blue and Green while my ally and I destroy Purple.

I started with a lot of gold and spent it all the first two turns by recruiting only level 2s. However I did a poor job in diving my forces between the two fronts, and ended up losing almost half my army over the course of the fighting. Still, the scenario wasn’t too hard.

Luck wasn't as much of a problem as it was in other scenarios because everyone got lucky at one time and unlucky at another. Overall, lucky and unlucky outcomes were pretty evenly dispersed between all sides.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8 – I loved it. But then, I always enjoy playing elves.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
It is fine as it is. No changes are needed.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
No. One time I loaded because I got annoyed with a string of extremely bad luck, but apart from that everything was fine.
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Maiklas3000
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Re: Scenario Review: DM 13 - The Return of Trouble

Post by Maiklas3000 » August 11th, 2010, 9:50 am

1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Most difficult; 1.8.3; 380 starting gold

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8 or 9

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
I hate when scenario objectives say to eliminate all enemy forces when they really mean eliminate all enemy leaders.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
A bit of a jump, but okay. At the end, Chantal runs forward, then back, and then she's screaming at her grandfather from the other side of the battlefield. I assume that was a bug in the WML.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The main challenges were assassinating the closest leader, surviving the initial assault from the West, and keeping Kalenz alive.

This may have been the closest fight I've had in a campaign (and still won.) It was a chaotic furball of a fight. Towards the end, I was down to Kalenz, two Sharpshooters (started from Marksmen), and two Druids (started from Shamen), but that's a pretty potent fighting force, so by then victory was in sight. One of the Shamen-turned-Druid even promoted to Shyde.

I'm trying to think of what I might have done wrong to make it such a challenge. I think my mistake was to fail to dash from the fortress to the cover of the forest. Instead I slowed down to try to engage wounded enemy in the open, which cost me a lot of units. It probably would have been even better to take over the enemy's keep to do my second batch of recruiting.

My compliments to the scenario designer, in that the ally was a pleasure to fight alongside. The ally was helpful and not suicidal. I would have liked him to aggressively capture villages towards the end and crank out some spam, but if he were a human player he might have wished the same of me!

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
10.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
None.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
The first time when I saw the enemy leader dash out, I tried to assassinate him with level 1 troops, which led to defeat and a restart from turn 1.
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Thrash
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Re: Scenario Review: DM 13 - The Return of Trouble

Post by Thrash » August 18th, 2010, 3:19 am

1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

1.8.4, hard

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

9

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Kill orcs.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

This was the most interesting scenario in Legend of Wesmere so far :-)

I think Chantal is running to wrong place when she comes in.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Uh, orcs.

It took me 4 or 5 times playing it before I beat it. First time I tried holding the mountains, but poor movement hampered me and I got killed.

Next few times I recruited mainly L2 units and made a rush for the woods due south and tried making a defensive stand. Basically, with attacks from two sides I was never able to form lines strong enough to hold off both enemies and one side of the other would break through or just wear me down from the end of my line. It's hard to have long enough lines on both the west and east - yeah you have ally to the east, but he's not doing anything coherent, so you still get orcs coming at you from that way. And with night falling just as the western orcs get to you, you take a lot of damage first couple of rounds of combat, even with the good terrain. Ally helped some by harassing, but he did more picking off of singular wounded orcs than any coherent formation, so that didn't help too much.

(BTW I have no idea what the wiki is talking about - hold the north edge? The orcs are coming from the west and east, not the north.)

Then I tried it with a mix of L2 and L1, but the third set of recruits got pinched between orcs from the W and E and never made it, so I ended up with about the same number of units, but weaker. Same end result.

Then I tried L2s against with move into the woods followed by a controlled press east, but ally was really a hinderance getting in my way and making it hard to do a quick assault, so I basically always ended up dealing with orcs from the west and could never get through to the east.

Finally what worked was basically leader assassination on the eastern orc (very similar to what Maiklas did now that I look at his replay). Recruit riders and marksmen and use them along with Kalenz to catch him when he comes out to grab a village on turn 1 (whatever you do, don't let him escape back to his fort or you are doomed if your try this). Then I took up residence in his fort and finished recruiting. Then you just push west. With a single front things are much more manageable.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

7

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

I never like these ally scenarios and this one is no different. Just give me control of his units and let me have some coherency.

The approach that finally worked for me, catching the eastern leader in a village on turn 1, seems cheap, but I can't find any replay that shows differently and the wiki makes no sense to me. I'm thinking it may be too hard on Hard for a straight up fight. I suggest weakening east orcs some, or maybe focusing them on ally.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

Many, see above.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?[/quote]

Seems fine, nothing too complicated it needs comments.
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santosis
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Re: Scenario 13: The Return of Trouble

Post by santosis » October 15th, 2010, 11:37 pm

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Medium, 1.8.5

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
7 - Challenging to come out casualty free, but not a ridiculous challenge.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear, beat the three baddies.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Solid.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Surviving the first night. I headed to the woods and helped my allied troops take the purple leader. I later lost a druid taking the second leader. My strategy was to recruit all high level troops, with one or two meat shields. Given that a lot of the enemy are level one, you could probably spend the gold (I started with 446 or so) recruiting a massive level one army and level them all.

I finished in round 15/27 with -128 gold and will carry 108 gold over to the next level.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
9 - Fun romp through the forest.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Good as is.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Not that I remember.

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Re: Scenario 13: The Return of Trouble

Post by dsa » January 13th, 2011, 1:27 pm

1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Hard, 1.9.3

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
7, I made this scenario harder for me than necessary. At first I tried to use the same strategy as suggested in walkthrough and to move my units to the forest in the south. The attacks from two sides led to heavy casualties on my side though. As I had nearly 700 start gold, I likely would have won this kind of carnage, but it didn't feel like the optimal strategy.

That's why I decided to change my strategy and try to kill the leader in the east quickly. I did not succeed with this strategy though, but did not know why at first. When I looked at some of the replays, I realized my mistake, that I recruited the wrong units. I noticed that especially the recruitment of a Sharpshooter with a quick trait in the lower left castle tile is quite important. Killing the eastern leader makes everything quite easy, as it gives you one frontline to focus on.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Okay.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Finding the right strategy and putting it into practice.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8, the ally was compared to other scenarios quite helpful here.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
A recruited Sharpshooter (or recruited units in general) in the lower left castle tile could always have a quick trait, because I had to restart several times to get this kind of unit.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Yes, several reloads to try different strategies.

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Re: Scenario 13: The Return of Trouble

Post by GagarinGambit » March 9th, 2011, 4:14 pm

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Hard, 1.8.4

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
6, challenging. But that's because I had 600 gold, otherwise I'd guess it'd be 8 or so.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Actually, it's defeat all leaders, not all enemy troops. But that's often the case in this campaign, so now I guessed it.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
There's not much dialogue, but what is said after you defeat the orcs does help the storyline. Oh, why is Chantal moving like she just had a nervous breakdown when she appears?

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
My ally stealing all the xp, they levelled up 3 or 4 units! My attacks were on the unlucky side at first, so I guess that's the reason (opponents were often weakened instead of killed, which would happen with average luck). I have to admit though, the ally was more useful than I expected.
In a more serious note, a difficulty lied in fighting in two fronts at the same time (near the starting keep, and in the forest, near the eastern's leader castle), because there was not enough time to move all my troops south. There was a constant risk of the orcs pushing hard and cutting my forces in two, and surrounding the troops in the starting keep, which would lead to their certain defeat. In order to avoid this, I had to pick some fights in the open and take a more aggressive approach than I usually do.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7. Hey, I'm controlling Kalenz! And I can even recruit level 2 units (not that you should recruit many of them, but it's a nice change). I also enjoy the challenge and the map design, which suggests moving out of your starting position. These things make an otherwise standard elves vs orcs scenario very fun.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
None

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
No
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Pewskeepski
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Re: Scenario 13: The Return of Trouble

Post by Pewskeepski » March 24th, 2011, 8:37 pm

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Challenging, 1.9.4 (444 gold)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8: Please note that I'm playing with Recruitment_ignore_bad_movement and combat set to yes by default, and thus, the orcs recruit every unit they can. (Like Goblin spearmen)

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Great! But why does this take place in Gylns Forest? That's in Wesnoth... right?

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Being surrounded by swarms of orcs.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
9: Superb job!

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
AI controller.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Lost once due to time. (And I was a few hexes away from the green orc :( )

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
Alright.

(10) How well done did you find the map for the scenario?
Excellent :)
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