V1.9/1.10 - 14 - Human Alliance

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Gerion
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Joined: March 28th, 2010, 11:01 am

Re: V1.9/1.10 - 14 - Human Alliance

Post by Gerion » October 14th, 2012, 3:45 am

I must say I am frustrated with this scenario.

I played it in older versions and it always was hard, but doable. But now?
After who knows how many reloads I gave up, because in my position it was impossible to beat the scenario simply because the ally cannot defend himself against the attacking hordes. And I would either be able to defend myself and not losing important units or be able to defend my ally and losing too many units to advance in the campaign.

Main reasons for this "impossibility" were: (impossibility in quotes, because I know it is beatable, but only under special circumstances, which I describe below)
- "wrong" orders. The dialogue suggests to hold the northern border, but winning is not possible if I actually do that. I knew that from older playthroughs, so it was no problem for me, but for first time players it will be.
- Even if the flow of the story is way better this way, not being able to recruit Shamans in the beginning of the campaign makes it harder to have lots of flying units in this scenario (and the later ones). Again, if I knew that, I would specifically level Shamans in the earlier levels to have a bunch of them, but so I only leveled a few (as always, they are primarily healers, not fighters anyway).

- Losing so many high level units in Ka'ilan, and losing so much gold there too.
The campaign is very imbalanced in this case. The first part is very easy, mainly because you got lots of gold (heck, I even won at Ka'ilan before the dwarfes arrived...). You level units, get a whole bunch of gold, get enough villages to get even more gold, and then suddenly, in the middle of the campaign, you need to start almost at zero again and, to make it harder, money suddenly is very scarce.

This situation is doable up until this scenario. In this scenario you suddenly need:
- lots of high level units
- lots of gold
- lots of fast/flying units

All of which is only reasonably possible if you knew in advance that this scenario (and the following ones) would come, which means you would have to play up to this point and then replay all scenarios since the battle at Ka'ilan to level especially for this scenario. I am not a person who would do such a thing, because I would consider it borderline cheating (Kalenz doesn't know what is ahead, so why would he train his units specifically for something in the future? It is like playing a RPG and reading the story in advance to know what to do...). The other possibility, save-reloading has the same cheating-problematic.
So... I think I will abandon this campaign up until this scenario is fixed to a point like it was in earlyer versions. Hard, but doable on the first attempt (I mean first attempt at playing the campaign and not knowing in advance what awaits you), if your strategy is right.

Just my 5 cents...

Just one thing that would make the scenario easier: being able to send the allied commander to another point, like it was possible in earlier scenarios (where it actually was unneccessary, I never needed to do that...). Being able to withdraw the commander into one of the forest forts would give a slight chance to use your units in favorable territory and the ally will be able to recruit one or two units each round max after the initial recruitments, so one of the forts actually would be enough

vicente
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 14 - Human Alliance

Post by vicente » October 19th, 2012, 4:44 am

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Hard, 1.10.4, 538 start gold
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
10
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear enough
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
It is OK for me.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Too many enemies. I can kill 10 enemies in one turn, but the AI can recruit 10 units in one turn as well. Also the human ally is quite stupid (trying to attack at night, not protecting the villages).
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
6, Not much fun. Well, kill 145 units in this scenario is quite an achievement.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
The base income of the orcs should be set lower after turn 12, as the story line indicates that they have ran out of further reinforcement. So how come they can still get ~300 gold income per turn?
Have the human leader to recruit Cavaliers is not a good idea. They are simply too expensive to maintain. If the ally get 4 Cavaliers in turn 1, he may die around turn 10, before you can send any reinforcement. I would suggest to have Dragoons instead.
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
I have to save-load quite frequently, otherwise I am sure whether I can weather the storm or not. In the end I survived, and even looks like winning (the ally and I had 60 units, vs 70+ orcs at turn 23).
Strategy:
I try to leave as many as possible villages to the ally, so that he can recruit 1-2 units per turn, and resist until my reinforcement arrives.
Try to maximize the income. Limited recalls at the first 2 turns. Leave 260 gold after turn 3, so that I can do a full recall (13 units) in turn 4.
I have mostly shamans and woses at the beginning. Send a healer and an Enchantress alone with 6 drawves to deal with the troll. After kill the troll leader, this group should go to the human castle.
Shamans and woses can hold the north forest until the elvish reinforcement arrives at turn 9. I have a strong reinforcement with 20 L3s, but it is still quite hard to keep the line. Woses are very good at killing enemies in water at this front, at least in the day. I have 4 healers here as well. It seems to be enough, as you do not need to heal the woses.
I also send one scout out to distract the enemy. First he goes to the east to prevent the trolls capturing too many villages. Later he goes south to capture he villages at the south end of the battlefield, so that the orcs would not get too much income. Then he goes back to the human castle to reinforce the drawves. He even killed a couple of orcs along the way, and leveled up. A quite successful mission.

Another suggestion is to improve the AI for the ally.
The code from TROW might worth a look.

[ai]
recruitment_pattern=scout,fighter,fighter,archer,scout,fighter,fighter,archer,mixed fighter
grouping=defensive
{ATTACK_DEPTH 5 5 6}
[/ai]
[ai]
time_of_day=dawn,morning,afternoon
aggression=0.65
grouping=offensive
[/ai]

Replay is attached. It would be a good idea to make this scenario a little easier.
Attachments
LoW-Human_Alliance_replay_2.gz
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xanthan
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 14 - Human Alliance

Post by xanthan » November 22nd, 2012, 8:57 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
normal, 1.10.4, 499 starting gold.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
11

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
fine

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
it seems impossible. I tried many options, and never made it past turn 17. The waves of enemy forces are simply too powerful in the night when your numbers are reduced as much as they are at this point. Aldar doesn't move at all even when he needs to be healed, which makes him a target that is difficult to defend.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
it would be fun if it did not appear to be impossible

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Make Aldar smarter. Make the orc armies just a little less invincible.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

Aldar being too stupid to flee or get healed. Too many powerful orcs at night near the end. My "reinforcements"-- just two units showing up in a really bad location that guarantees their imminent death. If they showed up earlier it might make a difference.


Addendum: I just went back and redid the entire campaign up to this point, using my knowledge of the scenarios to save money and level up as many units as possible. I was able to get through this scenario by virtue of starting with LOTS of level 3 and 2 units, though I lost almost all of them by the end.

Sabat
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 14 - Human Alliance

Post by Sabat » February 11th, 2013, 12:54 pm

Is it normal scenario behavior (on hard - v.1.11.1) that:
- I start with 150 gold regardless of the amount I collected before,
- I start with Landar and Kalenz on level 1 with no ability to recruit (due to drinking a special mixture?),
- Olurf and Cleodil can't recail anyone.

So I have got only 150 gold, basic dwarf units + ents and shamans?

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Adamant14
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 14 - Human Alliance

Post by Adamant14 » February 11th, 2013, 1:54 pm

This are known bugs.
Legend of Wesmere don't work correct with the development versions 1.11.0 and 1.11.1, hopefully all those issues will be fixed with the release of 1.11.2
Meanwhile I suggest to play LoW with the stable BfW version 1.10.5
Author of Antar, Son of Rheor: SP Campaign


Please add your (or some other) campaign to this sites: Guide to UMC Campaigns | Players' Review(s) | Please leave a comment here: WML filtering , WML variables

brunomatti
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 14 - Human Alliance

Post by brunomatti » February 18th, 2013, 5:45 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

Wesnoth v1.10, medium difficulty.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

10+

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Very clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialogue and storyline of the scenario?

Very clear, and while initially interesting, getting progressively less interesting with multiple restarts.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Overwhelming numbers of Orcs with underwhelming numbers of elves (there are too many Orcs).

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

2 or 3 -- it decreases as it becomes more frustrating.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

The CPU turns take a loooong time (understandable, there are lots of enemies). Give the player something to do during these CPU cycles. Also, perhaps (slightly) fewer Orcs , or perhaps make the human player controllable (or at least let me give him orders as in earlier campaigns).

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

The sheer volume of Orcs. There are too many, and I cannot cope!

I love this game, and played this scenario on v1.8. I remember it being hard, but it's nigh on impossible now! I have 460 gold, all characters are level three and I have a healthy smattering of level two and three troops (those who survived the bounty hunters). If I try and aggressively take the North West map edge, I can just about clear out the Orcs there until their reinforcements come and overwhelm me into inevitable defeat. If instead I strategically place my level three elves along the water front with healers stood behind them (alas, only level one and two healers), I can just about hold out until my own Elf reinforcements come, and then my reinforcements and I are all crushed by the inexorable tide of Orcs together! Five level three elves turn up as reinforcements, and I can't help but feel they are turning up with paper towels, ready to try and dry up the ocean. And the paper towel are already wet. And it is raining. And the tide is coming in.

Meanwhile, in the North East corner, my killer league of invincible Troll hunters (three level three Dwarves, and level two and some level one troops) are busy being slaughtered by the Troll king who "doesn't have much money and can't recruit much and should be easy to kill". So I tried recruiting more Dwarves, and this somehow made things worse! They all died much quicker! So I tried sending Elves to fight the Trolls in the woods until the Dwarves could make it onto the rocks. They all died together. So i tried sending Shamen to heal the Dwarves and slow the Trolls. This made no difference to the Dwarf casualties (almost all dead), nor did it make any difference to the Troll casualties (fewer than the Dwarves).

When I inevitably lose (which happens every time), it is either the Dwarf king who dies, or the human.

I think the scenario could use a little balancing, as currently it looks unwinnable. When my Elvish reinforcements arrive in turn 9 however, the scenario looks... still unwinnable!

Good game otherwise though.

(did I mention the Orcs? That there are too many?) ;-)

brunomatti
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 14 - Human Alliance

Post by brunomatti » February 19th, 2013, 7:12 pm

Phew... addenda. I changes the config file to give Auldar 100 more gold on each difficulty level, and each Orc leader 50 less gold on each difficulty. In this way, I was able to -- just, and with a little luck -- scrape a victory. I think this would suit the rebalancing, rather than making drastic changes to the scenario, the Orcs, the recruit / recall lists etc.

I have attached the replay file so you can laugh at my inept tactics (perhaps an all-out Elf assault to the North West was not the wisest, but trying to hold the water front always got me killed!)
Attachments
LoW-Human_Alliance_replay.gz
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D-Wade
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 14 - Human Alliance

Post by D-Wade » February 26th, 2013, 11:49 am

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Medium, 1.10.5

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
basically impossible. I ended up skipping the level after turn 12

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Quite clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
6, Clear

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Everything in this scenario is challenging: Holding your ground against a million of enemies, rescuing a stupid ally and trying to survive long enough/ not get slaughtered

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
1-2 because you just can't hold your ground

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
- reduce the number of opponents or give them far less gold
- give the ally more gold and a more defensive strategy
- give Kalenz more gold at the beginning
- let the player choose the positioning of the supporting cast
- maybe the "new" ork leaders could just be a small troop not being able to get more units

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Yeah, the turns from 10 on where harsh and impossible for me. First you thought some supports could help but their bad positioning and the 80 Lvl. 2 orcs swarming you is by far too much.

And by the way: I played this mission back in 1.6.4 or something on easy. I was really bad at the game but managed to beat this level with ease. Somehow there must have been significant changes to the difficulty.

KingsIndian
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Joined: June 6th, 2010, 12:14 am

Re: V1.9/1.10 - 14 - Human Alliance

Post by KingsIndian » July 25th, 2013, 7:36 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.11.2, Medium

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
10. I haven't even been able to come close to beating it.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
They were fine.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The AI ally isn't able to survive by himself, and I don't have enough gold to split my army three ways (between holding the forest in the north, killing the trolls in the northeast, and reinforcing the AI in the southeast).

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
1. Almost any scenario with an incompetent AI ally who needs to survive is un-fun. This one is even worse due to the sheer difficulty of it.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
When I played this scenario in 1.8.x, it was difficult, but beatable. Revert to the version of the scenario used then.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
I gave up after numerous re-loads.

letsdance
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Joined: July 22nd, 2013, 8:45 pm

Re: V1.9/1.10 - 14 - Human Alliance

Post by letsdance » July 26th, 2013, 2:28 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
medium, 1.10.5

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
10

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialogue and storyline of the scenario?
clear

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
too many enemies

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8 if it would be balanced with the rest of the campaign. the current version seems to be unbeatable (while most other scenarios where rather easy) and that's not fun (1).

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
i reduced the money on enemy bosses by 50 each, and increased the ally money by 100.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
no

vanatteveldt
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 14 - Human Alliance

Post by vanatteveldt » September 15th, 2013, 4:11 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.10.4, medium, had 409 gold

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
9+ or 10

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear, although the exact timing and location of the reinforcements is something that is hard to play against if you don't know.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Fine. (I don't really play this game for the stories ;-))

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
What about the endless hordes of orcs? :-)

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
9

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Give advance indication of where the elvish reinforcements will turn up, to remove the need of foreknowledge to prevent them from being surrounded and slaughtered. I would also increase the size of the knight army on turn 20, and make Haldric lead them into battle. It looks pathetic how 200 orcs flee from 4 or so horsemen. Since the scenario is over anyway, you might as well spawn 50 great knights and paladins and have them immediately kill some orc in the final round.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
My first try I recruited a keep of dwarfs to tackle the troll leader. This failed spectacularly as the clash occurred in the forest, meaning the dwarfs were quite useless.


I beat this scenario on the second try, with one savescum due to giving a stupid order. I recruited sorceresses, shydes, and all elite elvish archers/warriors I had. I sent out a selection of archers with the sorceresses to kill the trolls, which allowed me to upgrade both to enchantresses. When the first wave of trolls was killed, I sent most archers/fighters back west to help the stand there. The remainder killed the troll chief and went south to help defend the human.

The western army initially did quite well but the turn that my reinforcements arrived they were under attack by the second wave of orcs from the north and from the south, and it was clear that it was not going to work out. So, I withdrew my heroes towards the human keep to make a last stand there. The rearguard, consisting of many level 3 and many loyal units, died fighting in the forest to give the heroes the chance to escape. In the keep I needed to survive 4 turns or so, which went fine because of the defense bonus, the limited attack squares, and the ability to rotate wounded units; I don't think I lost a single unit in the keep.

My surviving team, apart from the heroes, were two shydes and two enchantresses and three each L3 fighters and archers; none of the loyal. I guess in retrospect I should have started withdrawing as soon as the reinforcements came, I tried too long to kill orcs instead of survive; and use the non-loyals to shield to loyal troops. Oh well... :-)

I think this scenario was fun and epic. I like great battles, and being overwhelmed and forced to retreat is a new experience.

[I did read the walkthrough after the first failure, and that also made me concentrate on leveling and guarding my shaman team]
Attachments
LoW-Human_Alliance_replay.gz
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ElComandante
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 14 - Human Alliance

Post by ElComandante » October 28th, 2013, 6:27 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.11.6, normal difficulty, 387 starting gold.
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
11.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
OK.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Enemy too strong. AI-controlled ally too stupid.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
0. About 7-8 if balanced.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Lots of interesting ideas discussed in previous posts. Implementing any of those would improve the scenario. More gold for player, less gold for enemies, smarter AI ally, endure less turns, more allied reinforcements, etc.
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Yes. The opposition in this scenario combined with idiotic AI ally results in an unwinnable game. This is an official campaign rated as intermediate level and played on medium difficulty by an experienced player. Most of the campaign (with the exception of "Bounty Hunters") is playable and balanced enough to be enjoyable. And then a scenario so hard that it is almost unanimously rated as 10+ in this discussion thread. Please address it (lots of useful ideas in this thread, even a ready-made .cfg with suggested modifications) or remove LoW from the list of official campaigns.

masuat
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 14 - Human Alliance

Post by masuat » November 19th, 2013, 5:55 am

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Hard, 1.10.6
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
It's too hard. Period.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Survive, not much to say.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
The horseman messenger tells me the general "asks that you engage the orcish reinforcements from the north," yet it's obvious I have to go down and protect the human ally or else he'll surely die. He also says "our reinforcements should arrive in a few days," which leads me to think that the humans will have reinforcements coming in a few days like Olurf's dwarves from the second Ka'lian battle (who came on turn 12 of 24 or something like that). I know this means last until the end of the scenario, but it is vague.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
0. Literally. The whole point of Wesnoth is to create fun (I hope) and this scenario failed spectacularly by being poorly designed and unfun to play.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?


There are many ways to improve this scenario. You could adjust the starting gold values. You could adjust the base incomes. You could put defensive terrain around the human leader to make it easier to hold position around him, or you could put deterring terrain on the open ground to slow the enemies' advances. You could lower the number of orcish leaders. There are so many ways you could make this scenario playable I find it astounding that this got through playtesting.

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Eagle_11
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 14 - Human Alliance

Post by Eagle_11 » November 20th, 2013, 12:53 pm

(1)1.10.7 Medium(and all this happens on only medium,wtf! ;_;)
(2) IMPOSSIBRUU, Too damn high! etc.
(3) Obviously a fight we are not going to win. As the battle progress we became even more hopelessly outnumbered, even when our lvl3's show up. Think this was intended as an fight to the death Helm's Deep style scenario except the fact there is no fellowship around to save our asses.
(4) Messenger tells hold out northern reinforcements then suicides into an orc camp and that wannabe hero prince boy general is an total fool that sends lvl3 units to midfield where they got encircled by damn orcs and die one by one instead using y'know their brains as in terrain usage, defensive tactics etc. After seeing those suckers happen and being -praise cosmos- elves(and some dwarves along) one asks why the [censored] do we came here in firstplace.
(5) The Artificial Idiot. He seriously needs the same or better yet an even more advanced control panel as used in the second battle for kalian scenario. When i managed to finally down the Trolls at turn ~14 he was already surrounded in his castle getting bitten by wolves because he keeps recruiting and throwing away lvl3s like as if theyre cannon fodder feeding damn orcs as if theyr not strong enough already. And if i would went south during course of scenario then both veterans and us will get encircled and die horribly.
(6) 1/10. At least it made me laugh.
(7) The last arriving pitch-black teamcolor orcs seem excess to me. Make it so that orcs attacking humans south raze villages they capture, theyr already numerous and get further boosted by insane income. Maybe i can win if i can tell AI to retreat to Troll's keep after clearing it. And i need bazillion lvl1 troops=gold,gold,gold to keep up damnit.
(8) ^see all the z-type above.

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Elfarion
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 14 - Human Alliance

Post by Elfarion » November 20th, 2013, 2:30 pm

Eagle_11 wrote:Maybe i can win if i can tell AI to retreat to Troll's keep after clearing it. And i need bazillion lvl1 troops=gold,gold,gold to keep up damnit.
That actually seems to be a pretty good idea. And given that in most other sceanrios of LoW the player can order the allied AI, this would be a logical step.
"Each of mankind's steps towards tomorrow is a breaking of today's laws."
- Sergej Lukianenko

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