03 - Ka'lian under Attack

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03 - Ka'lian under Attack

Post by Content Feedback » September 11th, 2010, 6:37 am

Below is a small 'survey'. It'd be greatly appreciated if people who have played the third scenario of The Legend of Wesmere would fill it out.

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?

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Re: V1.9/1.10 SP - Scenario Review: LoW 3 - Ka'lian under At

Post by varlokkur » May 13th, 2011, 11:06 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
hardest - 1.9.6

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
10 - impossible!

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear enough, but the first time I played the scenario I expected it to end after the 9th turn and start a new scenario where Kaelenz comes to the rescue. I wasn't aware it was possible to 'extend' the same scenario mid-way through. It's a cool idea, but some warning would have been helpful.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Ok; on par with the other mainline campaigns.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
One word: poison. OK, and wolf-riders. The campaign walkthrough talks about healers, but obviously in this edition we can no longer recruit shamans -- so every time a unit gets poisoned, they have 1-2 turns to live before being struck down by even the lowest of the enemy units. Even if shamans can't cure, they cut the poison damage in half. As if that weren't enough, the long distance range of the enemy's wolf riders means that I can't cycle my weak, poisoned units to safety because they will most likely be attacked by wolf riders on the next turn. I've tried setting up defensive 'walls', but the gap between the forested areas leaves some units exposed, and the sheer number of enemy units arriving on turn 12-13 can bust through the wall and kill my 'patients' resting in the few villages available.
Also -- the allied AI is stubborn and refuses to stay put when I send the blue leader to a safe area. He keeps leaping back into battle and getting himself killed, forcing me to restart (only to be overwhelmed and defeated by turn 16, anyway).

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
2. If it were winnable, I'd probably really enjoy the innovative way that the objectives change and the way that the whole strategy shifts when Kaelenz arrives.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Is it possible to let the player control both elvish factions? I hated watching the AI sacrifice all of the level 2 units that I worked so diligently to build up in the first 9 turns, when he could have sent them north to help me. That alone may have made the scenario winnable.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
See above - AI allied leader just wouldn't stay alive.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
NA, but if it's possible for the player to control 2 factions, (which I think is how the MP version works?) I think that would be the way to go.

If anyone else has managed to beat this particular edition of the scenario, I'd love to hear your advice and maybe see the replay save? I'd like to see the rest of this campaign, but even with 'cheating' every turn by saving and reloading for favorable combat results, I can't beat it!

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Re: V1.9/1.10 SP - Scenario Review: LoW 3 - Ka'lian under At

Post by varlokkur » May 13th, 2011, 11:12 pm

Another simple idea that would help: expand the forts/recruitment areas that Kaelenz and his archer friend get, to be on par with the huge fortress that the enemy in the NW corner gets. It would help to recall/recruit a bunch of units all at once, rather than spreading it out for 3 turns. With the negative income, I probably miss out on a couple of units b/c of the delay.

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Re: V1.9/1.10 SP - Scenario Review: LoW 3 - Ka'lian under At

Post by varlokkur » May 14th, 2011, 11:04 pm

Well, I was anxious to continue w/ this campaign, so I edited the scenario file and somehow managed to change it so that I can control both elvish factions :) That did the trick -- I'm through and continued the campaign... now I'm at the Elves' Last Stand scenario.
Kobayashi Maru anyone? :)

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Re: V1.9/1.10 SP - Scenario Review: LoW 3 - Ka'lian under At

Post by Skaithe » July 13th, 2011, 8:53 am

(1) v1.9.7 High Lord - Hard

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
Definitely a 9, holy hell. I beat it... but it was a massive struggle.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very clear. However, I think the maximum turn should start at 40... that was it's clear to the player that after 9 turns it won't be over.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Enjoyable.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Well surviving the initial assault was hard enough with all the poison. I also wasn't aware I could tell the AI commander to move certain places at first later on when Kalenz arrived. Also, trying to explore the map while staying alive was slightly challenging as well. For instance, the Merman village in the upper left. I reached it at turn 34 only to find I didn't get any loyal mermen. :)

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
10. Despite the challenge, it was awesome. A thorough challenge... perhaps just a *little* too hard... but then, I did choose the hardest difficulty, didn't I?

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Maintaining control of the other commander and his troops when Kalenz arrived would have been optimal, in my opinion. Would also make the scenario a lot easier though.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Yes, about a thousand of them. AI commander got killed many times at first due to my lack of knowledge on how to control him. In order to survive the scenario, I was forced to break the initial siege to the east and escape with the commander and 2-3 elves towards Kalenz's spawn point. The initial force of elves was wiped out just as Kalenz arrived(around 3-4 orcs from enemy initial force survived and pursued)... and I was forces to immediately travel southwest back to the keep with my new forces and the AI commander in tow and set up a defensive before the horde arrived. I had to restart a couple of time due to some unlucky/lucky hits and the orcs breaking through, there were really a ton of them. I positioned the AI commander on a summoning point and he brought a few elves in though, which helped. Managed to beat the scenario on turn 34. :P

Overall, a frustrating but thoroughly entertaining experience. I enjoyed the scenario.

For some reason my replay is corrupt! :( I really wanted to watch it too. oh well, attaching it anyway. Will replace if I figuure out how to make it work.... I'd hate to try and beat this again though. >_>
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Re: V1.9/1.10 SP - Scenario Review: LoW 3 - Ka'lian under At

Post by taptap » October 23rd, 2011, 1:17 pm

It is simply frustrating when you play Galtrid, heroically defend Ka'lian, set up several units for levelling then the AI takes over and suicides them all in the water around the city. There should be an option to keep control of Galtrid (even if you give the AI an extra 100 or 200 or 300 gold to keep the balance), I mean you started the scenario playing Galtrids troop, why take this control away. This happened to me in no other scenario I played, if you start with control you should keep it. Stopped playing the campaign here. Didn't even try to finish the scenario. Very sad, could have been a very nice scenario.
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Re: V1.9/1.10 SP - Scenario Review: LoW 3 - Ka'lian under At

Post by beetlenaut » November 28th, 2011, 1:19 pm

In this scenario I played very carefully for nine turns, and got four level 2 units. I cannot contain my frustration in watching my ally suicide them all in just a couple turns then die when they run out. I hate AI allies in the first place, but this is just asinine. I tried hard to like LoW, but I'm done.
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Re: V1.9/1.10 SP - Scenario Review: LoW 3 - Ka'lian under At

Post by HenryPlainview » November 29th, 2011, 6:21 am

The overabundance of labels for every single thing on the map is incredibly annoying and distracting. I have to agree with the immense frustration and bafflement expressed by others at the AI control. I hate it when the AI controls mission critical units, and it's infuriating in this instance. I tried to modify the CFG file to keep control, but all the multiplayer stuff makes it too complicated for me to follow it.

Why did you take away our ability to recruit shamans in 1.9, anyway? If I'm reading the CFG file right you can recruit shamans in multiplayer, and the AI can recruit shamans after he steals Galtrid back from you (if he somehow still has any gold left and can find a keep, I suppose), and and while no shamans is doable on the previous two levels (and actually adds a fun element), there are not enough villages to heal your units from all the [censored] assassins. I considered editing the CFG file for that as well, but as before the multiplayer code threw me off too much. Why not have a separate folder and file for the multiplayer version? The mash of everything together (and map files that break the naming convention) is pointlessly complicated and non user-friendly.

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Re: V1.9/1.10 SP - Scenario Review: LoW 3 - Ka'lian under At

Post by taptap » November 29th, 2011, 10:42 am

I like the fact that you don't have easy healing in this scenario, this adds so much challenge to it. Taking away the control of the forces inside Ka'lian is what breaks it - I had no, 0, zero motivation to continue after seeing what the ally did to freshly levelled units or those close to levelling. Give the enemy as much gold as you want, I will still try to fight, but don't take away those units I put so much effort into. This all leads to the best strategy being a migration North East were you can babysit the ally leader better. I mean, you are supposed to defend the city, but the best strategy is running away. What happens to all the poor elves inside Ka'lian?

My proposal: Keep control of the forces in Ka'lian and make losing the two villages inside Ka'lian a loss of the scenario.
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Re: V1.9/1.10 SP - Scenario Review: LoW 3 - Ka'lian under At

Post by AlexanderK » December 16th, 2011, 9:18 am

odd ai behavior

1.9.12 : I got strange <Lua error> attemp to index nil value... bla-bla-bla
screenshot
Spoiler:
& game save:
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Re: V1.9/1.10 SP - Scenario Review: LoW 3 - Ka'lian under At

Post by beetlenaut » December 16th, 2011, 9:37 am

This scenario is clearly broken. I'm pretty sure the lua error is because you killed the slayer, which you weren't supposed to be able to do. I filed a bug report about the AI problems a couple weeks ago, so it may be working in the next release.
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Re: V1.9/1.10 SP - Scenario Review: LoW 3 - Ka'lian under At

Post by Elvish_Hunter » December 16th, 2011, 10:55 am

AlexanderK wrote:1.9.12 : I got strange <Lua error> attemp to index nil value... bla-bla-bla
Thank you for the bug report.
Fixed in trunk, [rev]52293[/rev].
Here there is your patched savegame, please test it.
LoW-Ka’lian_under_Attack_Turn_18.gz
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beetlenaut wrote:This scenario is clearly broken. I'm pretty sure the lua error is because you killed the slayer, which you weren't supposed to be able to do. I filed a bug report about the AI problems a couple weeks ago, so it may be working in the next release.
It was a completely unrelated bug, due to the fact that, in the Lua AI code that controls the behaviour of one Orc, it was missing a check telling if said Orc was alive or not.
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Re: V1.9/1.10 SP - Scenario Review: LoW 3 - Ka'lian under At

Post by fabi » January 29th, 2012, 2:56 am

varlokkur wrote:Well, I was anxious to continue w/ this campaign, so I edited the scenario file and somehow managed to change it so that I can control both elvish factions :) That did the trick -- I'm through and continued the campaign... now I'm at the Elves' Last Stand scenario.
Kobayashi Maru anyone? :)
Indeed.
And your idea is the best way to go.
Loosing the control of the army was a terrible tomato surprise.

Thanks for the feedback.
taptap wrote:I like the fact that you don't have easy healing in this scenario, this adds so much challenge to it. Taking away the control of the forces inside Ka'lian is what breaks it - I had no, 0, zero motivation to continue after seeing what the ally did to freshly levelled units or those close to levelling. Give the enemy as much gold as you want, I will still try to fight, but don't take away those units I put so much effort into. This all leads to the best strategy being a migration North East were you can babysit the ally leader better. I mean, you are supposed to defend the city, but the best strategy is running away. What happens to all the poor elves inside Ka'lian?

My proposal: Keep control of the forces in Ka'lian and make losing the two villages inside Ka'lian a loss of the scenario.
Thought about the village defeat condition.
The Ka'lian is evacuated. There is no one in there beside the army to hold it.
You can consider that the Ka'lian is not destroyable in a short period of time without any heavy war machines.

So it is fine to leave it alone for some time.
If you see a better strategy in stealing through the woods the scenario should support that.

Do you still think that running away is always a better option,
even since the scenario no longer takes away the control?

Would be nice to heave both decisions working somehow and be equal hard.
In this scenario I played very carefully for nine turns, and got four level 2 units. I cannot contain my frustration in watching my ally suicide them all in just a couple turns then die when they run out. I hate AI allies in the first place, but this is just asinine. I tried hard to like LoW, but I'm done.
When I playtested the scenario it was doable, but I knew of course what would happen.
The control is no longer changed, but still can the player be surprised by the fact that the scenario isn't really over at the turns first provided.

Do you suggest any additional instruction given to the player regarding that?

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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 03 - Ka'lian under Attack

Post by beetlenaut » January 29th, 2012, 4:58 am

Thank you for changing this!

I don't think you really need any additional instructions because nine turns is pretty short, so most players will expect something else to be coming anyway. You could be polite and tell them what it is easily enough. The last line is currently something like, "We have to hold on until our army arrives." You could add, "When they arrive we will destroy these foul creatures together."
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 03 - Ka'lian under Attack

Post by taptap » February 20th, 2012, 1:56 pm

I noticed the change in the changelog. Thank you so much.

First time

When the orcish reinforcements arrive the orcs chicken out and retreat completely in the top left (instead of using his wolves to press in the south), while I had a bunch of losses when closing in (some approach you every time) but leaving the whole map to the elves it is easy to get a good economy and play this with mainly fresh recruit, also this allows to conveniently heal all those 1 HP elves in the southern villages.

That B4W crashes upon watching the replay of this scenario is probably a bug. I suspect the event of the slayer destroying the village is responsible for that. Imho this even can be removed without changing the overall character of the scenario.

Second time

I will likely have to replay this as I did too much work with Kalenz units instead of Galtrids => unnecessary losses + giving too much villages/gold to Galtrid. I did this now and it was considerably easier playing it the second time and I end with a much enhanced recall list, but due to a slight overrecruiting with the same amount of gold.

I like that the AI doesn't stupidly sacrifice all units it has in an offensive, but the static defense in this scenario after turn 9 is just as bad or actually worse. The player has a large number of 1 HP poisoned units - keeping up pressure at this moment can leave the player in some (welcome!) trouble, but if all the AI does is retreating at the very moment it receives reinforcements as well, this is certainly odd. At least it shouldn't yield the majority of 30+ villages without putting up any fight at all and even leaving one of the AI leaders undefended.
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