V1.5/1.6 SP - Scenario Review: LoW 7 - Elves' Last Stand

Feedback for the mainline single-player campaign Legend of Wesmere.

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santi
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 7 - Elves' Last Stand

Post by santi » March 12th, 2010, 3:30 pm

Im supposed to protect the dwarf from the last scenario. He's a noshow.
No, he is supposed to help you. Did you read the dialog at the end of the previous scenario. And keep in mind that a) all you have is a promise he will show up and b) he does not specify when....(You'll find out if you finish)
unclear (since dwarfs dont show up)
Dwarfs don't show up at the beginning, which is normal-they are not travelling with you.
and green is standing in the midst of enemies waiting to die.
So? This is war and up until now the orcs are winning. You will see later that green's demise is ... not entirely an unhappy event.
Time. First of all, there are only 25 terms to finish the scenario which is not that much since there are 4 enemies.
If you think time is not enough, play on easier level. On hard I win on turn 16-17 every time I tested. How do you know there is not enough time if you have not finished?
But even more annoying is that I have 1000 gold in the beginning (leftovers from the treasure 2 scenarios back), loads of lvl 3 units (leveled in the scenario before) and now I am supposed to send a huge army to war? The place is packed with units if i keep on recruiting..
First time I heard this. What exactly is annoying about having lots of gold? You also have lots of enemies.
You keep recruiting and sending the units to fight.If you do not like big fights, you should consider another campaign. This campaign has a few big fights. This particular fight is a kind of Wesnoth El Alamein or Stalingrad-a turning point in the war. Now such fights that turn the tide are big and bloody battles, not skirmishes. How realistic would it be "because an elvish patrol whipped an orcish patrol, the orcs withdrew in defeat..."

As for saving blue: Yes, you are a better leader and have more troops than Galtrid. And yes, part of your mission is to defend the Kalian and save blue. Some people have even managed to save green.... I usually blitz(not quite ) the trolls and send some troops to support the arrival of orcs when they arrive to help out the trolls and also some support to the Kalian straight down the middle plus two leveled troops+2 scouts to distract, harass and ultimately destroy Grubr. But that's my approach. You are the strategist in your game.

mod-zero
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 7 - Elves' Last Stand

Post by mod-zero » March 13th, 2010, 4:31 pm

Hey,

sorry, i guess i was misunderstood a couple of times there.

About the dwarf:
Yes, i read the dialogue but I'm talking about the objectives where it says i lose whenever that dwarf dies. But he is nowhere on the battlefield, which confused me alot. Usually the scenario objectives change whenever a character turns up later in a scenario. Minor mistake I guess.

About the time and turns:
I'm only stating that to me having lots of units on the battlefield is not that fun to play. I know you can't do anything about that in general because thats just wesnoth-gameplay but this is a feedback thread so i was giving feedback. And i was giving a reason why i disliked having green standing in the midst of enemies - the simple fact that he is fighting purple/orange without me intervening. And if i would have more turns, i could recruit/recall less units and still win the game. The way it is now i have to recruit/recall lots of units to win within 25 turns. I already played most of the other mainline campaigns and was surprised because I have never seen so many units on one battlefield before. I'm not sure but i recall a big fight-scenario called "battle for wesnoth", probably the reason why i didn't finish that campaign.

About blue:
I'm not sure i understood what you were posting about blue. All I'm saying is that I found out that I could command blue/green after reading it here and there were people here saying that this feature isnt working as its supposed to. So I guess it would be nice (storywise) to let Kalian say "You may lead command" or such so dumb players like me catch the drift. Another option would be deleting that controlling-option, but as I said on default especially blue is not doing anything useful at all.

About strategy:
I'm not a full-time wesnoth player, my first game is warcraft III and i feel like strategy-language is a little different there. I'm going to restart that scenario later today and just recruit/recall more than I did on first try and then make a comment about how hard this scenario is. If i feel like I'm unable to win that scenario I'm sure you wont mind me asking you for advice. ;)

All in all i feel sorry that i gave feedback before playing the whole scenario but I managed to play 2-3 scenarios in the time I played 6-7 turns on this one and so i guess i was a but hasty on that one.
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santi
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 7 - Elves' Last Stand

Post by santi » March 14th, 2010, 4:24 pm

I'm only stating that to me having lots of units on the battlefield is not that fun to play.
If you feel this way, then maybe this campaign is not for you. I already explained why gameplay requires a big fight. IMHO, because Wesnoth is a strategy game that depends on chance, it makes much more sense to have a battle with a lot of units than just a few, because then you can talk strategy without too much dependence on luck. The larger the sample, the better the statistics. The only compain I have heard long time ago is that the battle takes too long-actually the AI calculating takes some time. If that is the problem, it is sure to only become less of a problem in the future. Personally I think it is great fun, because you are strategist designing battle plans and carrying them out for a battle that determines the future of Wesnoth... That's what this game is all about. But your mileage may vary.
The way it is now i have to recruit/recall lots of units to win within 25 turns. I already played most of the other mainline campaigns and was surprised because I have never seen so many units on one battlefield before. I'm not sure but i recall a big fight-scenario called "battle for wesnoth", probably the reason why i didn't finish that campaign.
There are also other campaigns with big fights, such as Northern rebirth. HttT ends with Battle for Wesnoth, which is not that big, and rightly so- Asheviere's main army is fighting the clans.
disliked having green standing in the midst of enemies - the simple fact that he is fighting purple/orange without me intervening
Sure, but why do you dislike that? This is what army units are supposed to do, especially in Wesnoth, sometimes just sacrifice themselves to buy the rest of the army time. It is a standard Wesnoth tactic. What I would object to militarily is that he is not efficient in sacrificing himself, but that is not the same as your objection. But there is a good reason for this-play TROW and ask yourself: What is your impression of the old elvish leaership?

Point on Blue: At some time there were so many options for blue and green, that the player felt like one would have to learn how to fly a plane first. As it is, it should be easy to see that you have command, because of the ligting on the troops.
About strategy:
I'm not a full-time wesnoth player, my first game is warcraft III and i feel like strategy-language is a little different there.
Few people are. But Wesnoth is unique and has its own strategy tips. You can find replays in the forums. There is a learning curve and to become a good player, you need to be familiar with some strategy and tactical themes, like ZoC, time of day fighting, terrain, which unit to use to attack which unit and so on. It takes some learning to fully appreciate it. Good luck

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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 7 - Elves' Last Stand

Post by fabi » March 14th, 2010, 5:25 pm

I like Elves' Last Stand at the beginning but begin to hate it after turn 10.
The battle is mostly over at that point but you need another 5 or more turns to hunt
all the orcs down and that is just boring with the huge map and the many units around.

I'd like to have the orcs flee at a point when it is sure that there is no win to expect anymore.

mod-zero
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 7 - Elves' Last Stand

Post by mod-zero » March 14th, 2010, 7:50 pm

Ok i restarted this scenario and played it all the way to the end. I also used the "command"-feature on blue and green and I have to admit:

If you have time at hand, this scenario isnt so bad. Unlike Fabi i enjoyed the end of the scenario, simply because the enemies didn't have any units to move left and so I was the one playing and not watching.

And santi you were right this campaign is not my favorite to play, a couple scenarios later there was another "big fight"-scenario on a widespread map. That one is much better though since i can fight alongside with the human player and need to split my army in order to beat orcs/trolls coming from up north.

The point im trying to make concerning green is that there are a lot of actions that do not bother me at all. I actually tabbed out of the game until I heard the turn-bell. I already know up front that green is going to fail, so why should i watch his desperate actions?
Funny thing is, green and blue managed to take on orange as i told them to while i took on the other three parties. That was unexpected and not working as intended, but ok.

Another experience I made:

Dwarfes come too late to enter battle. Don't know if thats supposed to be that way but I never moved them down into battle.

All in all the worst scenario in this campaign (probably cause I dont like big fights), but ok to play if you take the time to do it.

Last but not least I want to answer the "big fights vs small fights" discussion, which is a little off-topic:

If you have lots of money at hand, this means the value of each unit is a lot less. If you have lots of units it is much easier to make a sacrifice in order to turn a fight and to protect important units such as Kalian. If you only have a handful of units though, you don't want to lose any of them so a tactical sacrifice would be your last choice. I'm always reflecting why I lost a unit if it is one of a few - unlike in this scenario, where I gave away a couple of units not even thinking about it. I know this might be a litte different in multiplayer but in the campaign the enemy won't take you down in a big fight if you lose a unit just because you haven't been careful enough.
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santi
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 7 - Elves' Last Stand

Post by santi » March 15th, 2010, 6:54 am

i enjoyed the end of the scenario, simply because the enemies didn't have any units to move left and so I was the one playing and not watching
Mop-up operations. You have that in most campaigns when at some point you know you are winning. For me it's gratifying to see how you managed to turn the tide of the battle. Plus, it's a great XP-builder, so you can level up troops.
That one is much better though since i can fight alongside with the human player and need to split my army in order to beat orcs/trolls coming from up north.
That scenario has been redone and it's much better(=harder) now than my original design. STill, humans are basically worthless, their only function is to delay the orcish advance, otherwise all their strategic decisions are very poor and their efficiency is nonexistent. Nevertheless I had a bittersweet feeling around turn 18 that although I did manage to beat the odds and was within a few more rounds to finish off the remaining orcs, I was denied the satisfaction by them fleeing!(NB: I play on hard)
I already know up front that green is going to fail, so why should i watch his desperate actions
Well, some people were(in spite of my expectations) able to save green... Plus, it's the same in Human Alliance: Green in this scenario and humans in Human Alliance only serve to distract and delay the orcs....
Funny thing is, green and blue managed to take on orange as i told them to while i took on the other three parties. That was unexpected and not working as intended, but ok
Like I said, what I like about the scenario is that you have many options: You can blitz the trolls; You can support the Kalian; You can let green+blue take on orange and perhaps support them with a few troops; You can beef up the Kalian and let the orcs fight you from the water... Bottom line: Green is not useless after all; his sacrifice was important to your cause, though you could have done it more effectively.
Dwarfes come too late to enter battle. Don't know if thats supposed to be
True in most case, and intentional. Reinforces the belief of a certain character among the elves that "they stand alone".

Last, I am not sure you can be careless even here. It's true that carelessness is more lethal in smaller fights, but making sound decisions is important even here. You ***can*** lose if you are too careless...(at least on hard)

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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 7 - Elves' Last Stand

Post by friar tuck » March 18th, 2010, 12:39 pm

mod-zero wrote:The point im trying to make concerning green is that there are a lot of actions that do not bother me at all. I actually tabbed out of the game until I heard the turn-bell. I already know up front that green is going to fail, so why should i watch his desperate actions?
Er, did you know there is a button under preferences with which you can turn off showing AI moves?

mod-zero
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 7 - Elves' Last Stand

Post by mod-zero » March 18th, 2010, 5:31 pm

friar tuck wrote:
mod-zero wrote:The point im trying to make concerning green is that there are a lot of actions that do not bother me at all. I actually tabbed out of the game until I heard the turn-bell. I already know up front that green is going to fail, so why should i watch his desperate actions?
Er, did you know there is a button under preferences with which you can turn off showing AI moves?
Yes, but they still show attack moves..
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santi
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 7 - Elves' Last Stand

Post by santi » July 6th, 2010, 5:43 am

The dwarves **may** be of help depending on your strategy of fighting, but usually they are not. This is intentional and rhymes with the story, fuelling the anger of a certain elf and reenforcing his views that "they stand alone".

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