V1.7/1.8 SP Scenario Review: LoW 23 - End of War

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V1.7/1.8 SP Scenario Review: LoW 23 - End of War

Post by Content Feedback » October 8th, 2008, 12:53 pm

The Legend of Wesmere, scenario 23 - End of War:

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

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governor
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 23 - End of War

Post by governor » December 9th, 2008, 4:40 am

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Medium and Hard 1.5.6
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
1 - With 9 sylphs and 4 shydes nothing is hard anymore.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Landar's turn to darkness and the eventual seeing the light, seemed contrived, rushed and hard to believe.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Didn't have enough money to recruit all my shydes. 1 stayed in the list.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Keep it as it is. I don't imagine I was supposed to have access to my sylphs and shydes, since everything else in the recall list was removed. This would make the map much more challenging.
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart?
None

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santi
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 23 - End of War

Post by santi » December 12th, 2008, 9:45 am

" I don't imagine I was supposed to have access to my sylphs and shydes"
It does not hurt your cause that the head shyde is Kalenz's girlfriend....
Also, as after scenario 8, the elves leave lv3 warrior units to defend the Kalian, but they do not consider sylphs and shydes warriors...

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governor
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 23 - End of War

Post by governor » December 12th, 2008, 4:40 pm

santi wrote:" I don't imagine I was supposed to have access to my sylphs and shydes"
It does not hurt your cause that the head shyde is Kalenz's girlfriend....
Also, as after scenario 8, the elves leave lv3 warrior units to defend the Kalian, but they do not consider sylphs and shydes warriors...
Heh, I attributed this to a bug, rather than campaign dialogue.

taemyr
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 23 - End of War

Post by taemyr » January 22nd, 2009, 3:47 am

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Medium, 1.5.8
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
1, by far the easiest scenario in the campaign. You have overwhelming forces and crush the opponent.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Clear. Limit the repent on deathbed cliche to "I'm done, now I can rest"
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
No
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
2
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
It needs to be more challenging. Either that, or put an orcish invasion scenario after it so we need to save gold. With 800 gold to my opponents 500 it really isn't a challenge. That way we can get back the rest of our recall list as well.
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
No.

Losing most of your recall list is annoying, since one spends the campaign building it up. Furthermore that you get to keep a certain kind of unit means that one should focus essentially exclusively on leveling units from the shaman lines. Or it would, if the last couple of scenarios where a challenge.

Overall I would not rate this as an intermediate campaign, the terrain is too forgiving for that. And there is not really any tactical wrinkles thrown in to compensate.

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santi
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 23 - End of War

Post by santi » January 22nd, 2009, 6:49 am

Maybe this means you are too good for medium and you should play on hard?
But I'll look into balancing issues. I should add that losing your troops is
part of the story because you have a civil war going on. Otherwise it would be hard to exaplain how come the orcs were not crushed back then. Also, terrain is definitely not always too forgiving; certainely it is in some scenarios, but not all of them

taemyr
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 23 - End of War

Post by taemyr » January 23rd, 2009, 5:53 am

santi wrote:Maybe this means you are too good for medium and you should play on hard?
Perhaps, but it's easier than HttT.
santi wrote: I should add that losing your troops is
part of the story because you have a civil war going on. Otherwise it would be hard to exaplain how come the orcs were not crushed back then.
I realize that. It's still an annoyance.
santi wrote:Also, terrain is definitely not always too forgiving; certainely it is in some scenarios, but not all of them
True, not always;
The Uprooting, Very friendly.
Hostile Mountains, Hostile.
Ka'lian under Attack, Very friendly
The Elvish Treasury, Very friendly
The Saurian Treasury, Somewhat hostile, but with strategically placed forests to compensate.
Acquaintance in Need, Friendly
Elves' last Stand, Very Friendly
Bounty Hunters, Friendly, since only one of the sea creatures can reach.
Cliffs of Thoria, Friendly
Battle of the Book, Very friendly
Ancient Alliance, Friendly since the human can deal with the southern forces, probably less friendly on hard.
The Chief must die, Bordering on pure story.
Breaking the Siege, Fighting will take place in the central forest so very friendly.
Costly Revenge, Somewhat hostile, the forests are less useful here than in Saurian Treasury. But Saurians are useless on ice.
Elvish Assassins, Neutral
Northern Battle, Neutral, but with the possibility of holding along the forest edge.
End of War, Nominally neutral, but easy to hold along edge of some forest.

taemyr
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 23 - End of War

Post by taemyr » January 26th, 2009, 12:06 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Hard, 1.5.8
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
1, with 1700 gold there is little challenge.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Clear. Limit the repent on deathbed cliche to "I'm done, now I can rest"
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
No
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
1
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Fix the instawin situation in the previous scenario.
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
No.
santi wrote:Maybe this means you are too good for medium and you should play on hard?
OK done. As the first campaign I have finished on hard difficulty. Overall I feel that this is campaign on hard is in line with medium difficulty on HttT. The exception being the second scenario, which I felt was horribly hard.

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santi
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 23 - End of War

Post by santi » January 26th, 2009, 12:57 pm

That's part of the problem: Each players experience is very different. For me,
scanario 2 is not hard on hard. Others have complained about in my view too easy scenarios on easy being too hard. We are trying to please all, but we cannot. Anyway, I hope to revisit LoW balancing issues when I finish with DM.
HttT is ****much**** easier now than when I first played it. Some scenarios were insanely hard -and in fact only beatable by employing non-fighting tactics, for example dwarven doors. TROW was also very hard on hard, but it has also been made much easier. There will always be players who will not be challenged by such scenaria, but the general consensus is that an unforgiving campaign which does not allow you a single mistake, is a bad idea.

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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 23 - End of War

Post by Bircoph » March 7th, 2009, 8:59 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Hard; 1.5.12+svn-r33365

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
2

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Clear and interesting, I wish to see more such storylines in the campaign.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
None.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
5

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
No idea.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
None.
Per aspera ad astra!

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Orcish Shyde
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 23 - End of War

Post by Orcish Shyde » March 13th, 2009, 9:19 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Medium 1.5.13

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
3, never really any question that I'd win

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear as day

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Boring and disappointing.
Spoiler:
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Major challenges? Are you kidding me?

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
5, not bad, slightly disappointing for a final match

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Give back all of Kalenz' recall list, not just the shaman lines. This is the final battle, it should FEEL like it.
Give Landar more troops.
Make Landar's attacks magical.
Spoiler:
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
No.
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santi
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 23 - End of War

Post by santi » March 15th, 2009, 8:48 am

I'd agree the scenario is easy, but keep in mind that:
1) if you find a scenario too easy on medium, you should be playing on
hard. That said, I should say that the final scenaria (starting with Human Alliance) are bing rebalanced-which means made harder
2) having magical attacks is a reward for levelling your shydes(and storywise for Cleodil being Kalenz's girlfriend)
3) Landar's motives were pure and his treason does not undo his previous heroic deeds when he was most needed, e.g. the first and especially second cliffhanger scenaria. Kalenz's forgiveness is, IMHO, an act of class
as were as pure sense(looking forward and no backward). Of course your view may differ.

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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 23 - End of War

Post by Orcish Shyde » March 16th, 2009, 7:46 am

1) The campaign as a whole wasn't bad difficulty-wise, although I will probably replay on Hard at some point.
2) It wasn't so much that I felt cheated of magic attacks, as that the plot never gives any kind of explanation for why Kalenz turns into an Elvish Lord after drinking the potion and Landar doesn't.
3) Nor does Landar's previous heroism undo his current treason. "Look forward never back" would forget his previous heroism as well as his evil, and bury him just as a veteran soldier, not a hero among heroes. The guy tried to kill his former best friend for no reason at all; the degree to which his crimes are ignored broke my suspension of disbelief.
Spoiler:
Shameless Crossover Excuse
Necromancer (campaign)

You are a Dwarvish Berserker: you're freaking crazy and enjoy it.

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santi
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 23 - End of War

Post by santi » March 16th, 2009, 9:28 am

Thanks, well on
a) : it is hoped that LoW will re-emerge a harder campaign(at least on hard) :)
b): What is an elvish Lord? It is a weaker Champion meleewise who can use magic; magic was something that had to be learned and I thought this was clear by statements like "meanwhile Cleodil had been training Kalenz in the secrets of Krelanu's book". Just because of an aquired predisposition towards magic does not make Kalenz and landar mages. Kalenz works on his magic, Landar does not(it also helps that Cleodil is Landar's girlfriend and not Landar's; the history of Wesnoth would be very different then :) ) So double predisposition is no match for training.
c)It was not exactly for no reason at all; the end was right, the means were dark, but there
were no other alternatives. What would happen if they would fail? Landar wanted to make sure they would not fail, whatever it takes. Choosing to take the potion was heroic. Overdosing was also done for a good cause. Even though LoW was first, Landar's story has certain similarities to Descend into Darkness(fighting for a noble cause in a let's say unorthodox way).

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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 23 - End of War

Post by Orcish Shyde » March 16th, 2009, 9:50 pm

Point B conceded, though maybe we should take this to PMs. I guess I wasn't paying enough attention to the plot or something.

As for point C... The "for no reason at all" referred not to Landar's taking of the double dose, but to Landar, while under the double dose, attempting to kill his best friend. Literally all the other major villains in mainline campaigns have had a reasonable, if not morally acceptable, motive for their actions - Asheviere/Rakshas wanted power, Darken Volk wanted immortality, Dela Keshar wanted justice, Lanbec'h/Mal M'brin despised the species of their respective opponents. Landar has no such motive to kill someone who's retired and, assuming he wants to become High Warlord of the Elves, poses no further threat to his ambitions if simply left alone.

((Incidentally, I'm mostly on Malin's side if any morality debate about DID comes up. Volk shafted him, Drogan was an ungrateful [censored], and Dela didn't even give him the chance to flee without being pursued - something to the tune of "We can handle these orcs, so if you truly aren't with them, leave us alone".))
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Necromancer (campaign)

You are a Dwarvish Berserker: you're freaking crazy and enjoy it.

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