16 - The Chief must die

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dELFador
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 16 - The Chief must die

Post by dELFador » May 30th, 2009, 2:10 pm

I just succeeded on medium, 1.7.0

I had kalenz show himself and attract all the orcs to surround him at the village in the bottom left corner, while landar sneaked past the remaining wolves to attack the sovereign (via the village beside him.)

p.s.
luck was a major factor, at one point kalenz almost died, even with the healing of a village, but he leveled up.

p.p.s.
I admit to using save-loads, since it seemed impossible to defeat it without them :augh:
Attachments
LOW-The_Chief_must_die_replay.gz
here is replay, although it is a bit corrupted.
(49.36 KiB) Downloaded 299 times
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A-Red
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 16 - The Chief must die

Post by A-Red » May 30th, 2009, 4:30 pm

So all the orcs come after you once you become visible in 1.7? Yeah, I can't imagine beating that. In the version I played, there's no way not to be seen at least a couple of times--if nothing else, you have to become visible to kill the chief. I thought the point was that the orcs can't know you're there, so that it looks like orcs killed the Sovereign?
Last edited by A-Red on May 30th, 2009, 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

energyman76c
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 16 - The Chief must die

Post by energyman76c » May 30th, 2009, 5:00 pm

no, it goes like this:
orc riders find you - and they will find you. Most are moving like mad, but one will always move straight were you are hiding. I had one savegame, where no matter where I moved Kalenz, one of the wolf riders would always move straight up top him - and after they found you a whole mob of orcs will surround you and start beating the crap out of you. Even if one or two get killed, you can't flee.

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StandYourGround
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 16 - The Chief must die

Post by StandYourGround » May 31st, 2009, 4:25 am

I almost got through it, by strategically revealing myself by surprise attacks to draw the whole gang at me, and then quickly relocating. The wolves would either spend too much time searching the wrong area, or a few stray wolves would find me and get killed before they could raise an alarm. However, I was forced to attempt to rush the leader because I was running out of turns, and thus lost. Also, while I think it's cool that Kalenz is transposed to the Leader/Lord/High Lord line, I thought it was lousy that I got stuck with him back down to level 2. Sure, he could level up if he survived long enough, but that rarely happened...
I will now resume lurking silently.

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Darkaros
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 16 - The Chief must die

Post by Darkaros » June 2nd, 2009, 3:44 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Medium, 1.6
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
2. Oh come on, the random units stood around and did NOTHING, even when Landar got bored and started taking pot-shots at them.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very obvious, particularily the title. :P
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
It was pretty straightforward, somewhat interesting.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Leveling Kalenz to High Lord was the only thing that I had to actually work for, and the problem was solved on turn 10ish, mainly because those wolves tried eating Landar. Hard to do that when you have 80% defence on everything except 70% defence on shallow water. The chief was even more ridiculously easy.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8. It was fun, but mainly because you could laugh at how stupid the orcs are.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
It would be interesting if the non-wolf orcs actually attacked you if you got next to them instead of standing still doing nothing. Also would be nice if the scenario was extended, so you could see your allied dwarves and elves (and maybe humans...Bah...) actively attacking the orcs, thereby distracting them.
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Kalenz got eaten once, but that was quickly remedied.

axelotl
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 16 - The Chief must die

Post by axelotl » June 13th, 2009, 2:20 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

easy 1.6; hard 1.6.2

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

2

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Realizing that the grunts might as well be statues.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

1. The dogs eat you or they don't. If they don't, Kalenz gets back to L3.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

The potion is supposed to reduce physical strength, but Landar, who has had a double dose, doesn't seem to be affected much. Perhaps he should be degraded more?

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

On easy, I picked the wrong route and someone got eaten.
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santi
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 16 - The Chief must die

Post by santi » June 14th, 2009, 3:39 pm

I think as it is the scenario needs major changes. There is no point in an invisibility position, when every enemy unit goes right at you. At least in that case we need 90% defence, not 80. Plus, ZoC should not apply because otherwise you get surrounded and cannot really go anywhere.

JRockford
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 16 - The Chief must die

Post by JRockford » June 15th, 2009, 12:20 am

I played this on 1.7.0. As others have noted, getting sniffed out by a wolf makes you visible to the world. Once you move away, though, you become invisible again.

Kalenz managed to survive without being spotted after the first few turns. He and Landar moved east. I managed to get Landar in place unscathed for his attack after many restarts to evade the random wolf searches. I couldn't get him in a village next to da Chief despite many tries. Once he got going on the attack, though, it took many retries to complete without getting killed first. It was a frustrating, tedious exercise, clearly not what the designer intended. It was purely aggravating and I look forward to a rebalanced version. Kalenz is demoted to Lord for this scenario and appears in the next scenario as Lord as well. I'm unhappy about the demotion, which seems out of keeping with Wesnoth "reality."

superbeast
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 16 - The Chief must die

Post by superbeast » June 23rd, 2009, 4:41 pm

From what I read in this thread, V1.7 has taken the difficulty to an extreme since other versions. I've tried to play it on Easy setting in V1.7 and I believe it is unwinnable. I've restarted it at least 8 times trying different strategies each time. It is unenjoyable and frustrating in the extreme.

I've tried to determine if there is a safe radius from the wolves. It seems like it's about 5 empty hexes. Possibly this is only my imagination or pure luck. I've tried separating my heroes to make distraction with one while the other sneaks the other way. This doesn't work. I've also tried just staying in the river (when I can get there undetected which was rare). I picked up on the hint of wolves smelling me and thought maybe the water would wash away my scent. that didn't work either.

Completely and utterly futile. Way too difficult in v1.7. :annoyed:

iserp
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 16 - The Chief must die

Post by iserp » June 24th, 2009, 3:45 pm

The Legend of Wesmere, scenario 16 - The Chief must die:

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

Medium v 1.7.0

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

10 I thought it was unwinnable, then i took a look at this thread, and after some save/loading, i was able to make it

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

I think it was nice

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

I had to split Landar and Kalenz. Landar went to the east, then I attacked one wolf with Kalenz. This attracted the attention of the rest of the army. After killing two wolves, i was able to hide Kalenz again in the village near the post. Now that the army is displaces towards SW, i was able to reach the chief with Landar, and with some save/loading kill him without Landar himself getting killed.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

0 right now, although it looks as it could be quite fun. It is different from what scenarios use to be.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Wolves shouldn't be able to catch you so easily, i would make smaller the distance from where they can "smell" you. I also would make them to move less. Maybe there could be less troops, so even if you are discovered, you are not surrounded by 5 enemies right away. To make up for the easier setting, maybe in the objectives, both Kalenz and Landar should reach the sign post (so you can't use the trick of diverting enemy troops)

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

I started multiple times. And usually a wolf would discover me. So, the turn they discover me, all troops move. I kill the wolf next, but i am still visible, so the enemy troops move towards me once again. Two full turns of enemies moving towards me means that i am surrounded and i cannot escape and die

Kadgaar
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 16 - The Chief must die

Post by Kadgaar » June 30th, 2009, 8:14 pm

I play it in 1.7 and it's so hard!
Even if I succed too kill the Chief, i'm quicly surrounded by orc and can't escape. I have try like 10 times unsuccessfully, and with save/load.
The fact is when i attack or i'm attacked, i'm no more invisible for this turn. It's normal in a skirmish but for this scenario...
The difficulty seem too change a lot from the 1.6 to 1.7 Maybe a bug with the invisibility?

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A-Red
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 16 - The Chief must die

Post by A-Red » July 10th, 2009, 3:33 am

I think a way to (easily?) change the whole balance of this level for the better would be to have the wolf riders move fewer spaces per turn, and in more predictable/set patterns. That way, the gameplay could actually revolve around avoiding them, rather than around hoping they don't randomly find you.

Also, even if being attacked by wolf riders triggers nearby guard orcs to attack, this should not be the case when you become visible to attack the chief--aside from the gameplay issues, this creates a plot hole, given that you are supposed to make it appear as though orcish traitors killed the chief.

Ditto
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 16 - The Chief must die

Post by Ditto » August 11th, 2009, 4:01 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

Medium v 1.7.2

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

10
Not sure how people thought this was easy .. somebody mentioned grunts don't attack you . even if you're right next to them .. that's not true at all (at least on 1.7.2) .. Wolf spots you, every stinking unit moves towards you .. you attack, you not visible for that turn, every stinking unit moves towards you ..
Kill all wolves? How?!? Took me 15 turns and I managed to kill 3 or 4 .. still couldn't get anywhere near the leader ..

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Ok .. neat idea ..

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Trying to figure out how to sneak through the mob and/or kill all the wolves in 32 turns is a bit of a major challenge .. alot of reloading is required.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

1
A scenario that requires you to reload so much just so you have a chance isn't fun .. it's called impossible, and you're hoping to get lucky .. nah .. setup the wolves, fine .. but maybe don't move things .. Liberty had a scenario like this .. I liked it better, even though it was a bit simpler ..

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

I agree with what somebody else said:
Wolves shouldn't be able to catch you so easily, i would make smaller the distance from where they can "smell" you.
Maybe there could be less troops, so even if you are discovered, you are not surrounded by 5 enemies right away.
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

many events ... trying to pick my fights and not get swarmed .. trying to sneak through the mobs .. the way it is as written in 1.7.2 .. it just seems "too hard" .. sorry if that sounds "whiny", but meh .. it shouldn't take that many reloads to accomplish ..

Ditto
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 16 - The Chief must die

Post by Ditto » August 11th, 2009, 6:00 pm

Wow, ok, sorry, I was on 1.7.1, not .2 ... whatever .. anyway, wow, On Medium, finally did it!!

It's not easy, mostly luck, and I lost track of the reloads .. however, here's the replay .. a couple tricks and tactics I tried which did seem to help:

a) I started a bit of a melee in the SW .. got hairy, I thought I was surrounded/dead, but after killing a few wolves and a number of other misc units, both Kalenz and Landar managed to sneak away.

b) After moving away from the main mob, I seperated the two .. Kalenz actually headed back into the mob .. Landar went for the cheiftan.

c) Kalenz got pinned at one point, and I swear the computer refused to move for the longest time even though Landar was quite visible/blatant about attacking, etc. In any case, patience paid off .. just left Kalenz in the only clear spot - no wolves in the area, and went for the Chieftan with Landar ..

d) Eventually the computer had to move the units and react to Landar, and that free Kalenz up .. I moved back towards the signpost and waited for either an attack to distract from Landar, or to end the map ..

As it turned out, I didn't need any more distractions ...

*whew* .. friggin irritating level!!
:annoyed:


[edit]
hmm, seems the replay is corrupted near the end ... after the 1 wolf attacks Landar near the chieftan, landar kills it, then attacks and takes 2 turns to kill the chieftan .. not sure why the replay's corrupt .. oh well ..
[/edit]
Attachments
LOW-The_Chief_must_die_replay.gz
(36.5 KiB) Downloaded 229 times

BigCheese
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 16 - The Chief must die

Post by BigCheese » October 9th, 2009, 6:07 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
medium 1.7.6

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
1 - with save/load
10+ - without

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
clear

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
save/load to avoid the wolves

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
1 - park Kalenz near the signpost, send Landar to kill the chief while loading every second turn because those unpredictable wolves moved in my direction again

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I don't know, perhaps make it a scripted cutscene

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
those insane wolve patrols

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