V1.7/1.8 - 14 - Human Alliance

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Maiklas3000
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 14 - Human Alliance

Post by Maiklas3000 » July 1st, 2010, 8:09 pm

Update... I won on hard (but with a cheat of reloading one turn). The basic gist is that I did not send even one unit to slow down the north and just focused on moving all my leaders to the human leader's fortress and making a stand there, since the objective is just to survive. Full details in the strategy forum. I try to play all the campaigns without reloading turns, so I'll be playing this scenario again.

Edit: Another update... I now won on hard without cheating.

kukn
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 14 - Human Alliance

Post by kukn » July 9th, 2010, 10:35 am

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Hard, version 1.8.2

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
10 (but not more)
First time looked impossible, second time after I read up on the discussion here it still seemed extreme, third time it was doable but only with extreme focus and complex strategy...

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Misleading - as has been said, it sounds like you should leave the allied general to manage the western hordes, and that you should attack north west. Both of which is ridiculous. I would suggest adding a dialog line for Olurf saying (maybe in turn 3, when the allied computer has charged out his army): "Is he crazy? Those humans are going to be butchered. They'll need dwarves to stop the fort from falling!"
Also possibly a note about the trolls, showing their importance (and they are important). And maybe a retort to the allied general's strategy of you attacking north, maybe Cleodil noting: "With the numbers set against us, we cannot go into the offensive. Even defending will be hard!"

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
See above. Otherwise it was nice and I liked how the map increased twice with the completely unexpected orcish reinforcements. The elvish strikeforce in turn 9 is actually a great help, if used correctly, so kudos for that.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Coming up with the perfect strategy just to be able to complete the mission - warding off the trolls with just enough units, holding the human fort and juggling around wounded units and hoping the enemy wouldn't envelop the place completely, timing the north western defence at the river to last until turn 9 and then keep them their long enough and fall back from the black orcs. Also I had 464 gold to start with and I just barely made it with buying some level 1 units (didn't have enough level 2+ units to recall only, and recruiting level 2 is too expensive).

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
9, on the third go (5 on the first two), when I had the strategy thought through completely, it was a glorious fight on three fronts with a lot of moving up, falling back, reinforcing etc. I like the map design - the forested river north west is a great spot to kill off assassins etc. and hack down the whole NW orcish offensive, the troll lakes and forest are also very good, giving you a slightly harder time as you can't get a good defensive position (you have orc units attacking from behuind, so you need to move all the way just south of the troll fort), the plains are awe-inspiring and unusual to see, also a death zone for you to avoid (like it), and the allied fort is actually very good, as you can use the hills behind it to increase your defensive area if you have so many units (using dwarves there means the 60% terrain defence is the same).

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Dialogue changes (see above). Make it more clear that the human ally is an idiot (I don't mind that, but you should be warned). Maybe reduce the difficulty just slightly.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
1st restart - thought allied general would manage like he said he would, but he died on turn 11 or so. 2nd restart - simply overwhelmed. 3rd try - I reloaded twice when a chain of bad luck killed off some crucially important units (sylphs mostly, though I still lost some).


A memorable battle I must say. I'll be posting a short strategy write-up of how I won here.

Thrash
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 14 - Human Alliance

Post by Thrash » July 9th, 2010, 4:38 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

1.8.3 Medium (412 starting gold)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

8, you have to get the strategy just right as given the size of the map, there is little room to recover "in flight".

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Keep Ally alive is clear enough. As others have pointed out, the amount of aid you need to give him is a little misleading.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Clear enough, one thing struck me as odd: when the elven reinforcements arrive the first thing they say is "Kalenz has arrived!" (or something close), which I thought was odd - I guess they were surprised to see Kalenz, but I thought they were announcing his arrival, which made no sense since he had been there.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

At the gross level, keep Ally alive. This meant finding the right balance between killing trolls and the western and eastern orcs, please reinforcing Ally. Plus I found a strategic retreat after the third wave of orcs arrived was called for.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

Great - 9! Working out the strategy was loads of fun.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Watching orcs move during their turn gets old, I always found myself going away and coming back (and sometimes the AI was still moving). Don't know what to do about that though.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

Loss of Ally several times.

Replay and more discussion of my approach(es) in the forum.

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Maiklas3000
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 14 - Human Alliance

Post by Maiklas3000 » July 9th, 2010, 4:49 pm

Thrash wrote: Watching orcs move during their turn gets old, I always found myself going away and coming back (and sometimes the AI was still moving). Don't know what to do about that though.
I switched the animation speed to 2x in options. Still takes a long time on hard, but it's more reasonable.

chak_abhi
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 14 - Human Alliance

Post by chak_abhi » August 5th, 2010, 9:06 pm

To the development team
I'm using Wesnoth 1.8.1. for nearly 3 months.I have a problem with this particular level.Here the number of enemies is so vast that it is impossible to contain them.Every 4 turns go and new orcs come up,each with starting gold of around 600 which allows them to recruit more than 2 castlefuls of level 2 recruits.The human ally is no good,only holding up the first wave and stupidly succumbing soon due to the habit of attacking by night.Even on medium level I could not save a number of loyals and level 3s.Besides I end up on high negatives,and start "Breaking the siege" with only 100 gold,with which it is almost impossible to get through.Following the forums it seems that quite a few people are having the same problems.
I request that this level be softened a bit.Please limit the number of enemy camps to 5.Otherwise please reduce their starting gold to about 300 so that there is at least some breathing space between the successive waves.In its present state this particular level makes LoW more difficult than "The rise of Wesnoth"(the only hard campaign I have played till now).

chak_abhi
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 14 - Human Alliance

Post by chak_abhi » August 8th, 2010, 4:09 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Easy,Medium in Wesnoth 1.8.1.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
10+

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Not very clear.Aldar's horseman tells Kalenz to hold off the northern orcs only,which means he is capable of holding the south,which seems impossible even on easy difficulty.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Also not clear.The elvish reinforcement declares their arrival by saying "Kalenz has arrived",as if surprised to find him there.In the end the human reinforcement arrives with only a few knights and horsemen,and the orcs flee in fear!Such a poor reinforcement will last less than a turn against the countless orcs!

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Keeping the loyal units(Anduillas,Huraldur,Tameril-Ismiril and Arkildur) alive.It is utterly necessary for the later scenarios,but needs sacrificing some experienced soldiers.I lost 1 captain,2 avengers and 1 champion in this single scenario.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
1 (might be less).Getting level 3s killed is not fun.It takes hours of gameplay to create a level 3,only to be lose them here.The human battalion is so foolish that Aldar requires high degree of protection from the elves to survive.How come they send cavaliers & dragoons instead of knights,lancers and grand knights,who can kill almost anything on open terrain?What is the use of so many duelists,who are susceptible to all attacks?(they have high defence on open grounds no doubt,but against the countless level 2 orcs even high amount of luck cannot save them)Why do not they have white mages for healing purposes?And above all,why do they attack at night?
At present this single scenario makes the whole campaign harder than "The Rise of Wesnoth",at least on medium difficulty.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
At present this scenario is a killer scenario.It can be made highly interesting by incorporating the following changes:
a. Limit the orc camps to 5.At first there should be the first 3.The northern orc,the troll and the southern orc should start with 400,260 and 300 gold respectively(medium difficulty).The 2 others should come at turn 8 with 350 gold each.Aldar should start with 500 gold.
b. Change scenario objectives.It will be like "defeat the northern orcs and hold on till turns end".Bonus objective:defeat all enemies. No gold carried over to next scenario.If all enemies are beaten then the reward should be a strong weapon or a strong ally(e.g. a loyal great mage;elves have no fire attacks).Alternatively at first the objectives will be to hold on till turns end.But on turn 15 Haldric II arrives with a huge human army and the objectives change to "defeat all enemies".
c. Change the behaviour of the human AI.He should be more strategic and defensive.
d. Add some terrain variation,so that the main battle is not fought fully on open fields.
e. Make the humans recruit more knights,lancers,grand knights and white mages instead of dragoons,cavaliers and duelists.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Many,including death of Landar or death of any loyal unit.

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Maiklas3000
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 14 - Human Alliance

Post by Maiklas3000 » August 9th, 2010, 7:57 am

chak_abhi wrote:(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
1 (might be less).Getting level 3s killed is not fun.It takes hours of gameplay to create a level 3,only to be lose them here.
You lost three level 3's, but you gained a Sylph, a Shyde, 2 Dwarf Lords, a Dragonguard, a Sharpshooter, and probably more. If you think this was bad, just wait until later in the campaign. Heh, heh, heh.

fabi
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 14 - Human Alliance

Post by fabi » August 9th, 2010, 10:04 am

The newest 1.8 release,
version 1.8.4 should be more doable.

The orcs' gold has been reduced,
and Crab tuned Aldar's ai.

The later does cause the orcs to attack the elves more likely since Aldar stays out of range
during at least the first night now.

I hadn't much time to playtest the scenario yet.

chak_abhi
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 14 - Human Alliance

Post by chak_abhi » August 9th, 2010, 8:00 pm

Maiklas3000 wrote:
chak_abhi wrote:(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
1 (might be less).Getting level 3s killed is not fun.It takes hours of gameplay to create a level 3,only to be lose them here.
You lost three level 3's, but you gained a Sylph, a Shyde, 2 Dwarf Lords, a Dragonguard, a Sharpshooter, and probably more. If you think this was bad, just wait until later in the campaign. Heh, heh, heh.
Do you really mean the last 2 scenarios--Northern battle and End of War?They were a breeze.
Foolish Landar thought he could only conquer Kalenz by brute strength.He clearly underestimated Uradredia's loyalty.He took away a number of Kalenz's veterans,including 3 shydes,the lone sylph,1champion,1 sharpshooter,2 avengers and a number of level 2s,which amounted to about 25 units.Uradredia swarmed them with nearly 50 units,mostly level 1s and a few of Kalenz's veterans and the loyal Huraldur,Arkildur and Tameril-Ismiril,and killed 20 of them.The ones who got near Kalenz(2 avengers,1 sylph,1sharpshooter,1 shyde)were slaughtered.Meanwhile Kalenz's defence line at the river seemed almost impenetrable,and Crintil's forces were mercilessly killed.I had gained a champion,a hero and close to levelling were a marksman,a druid,a shaman and another hero.However due to poor strategy of Uradredia all the 3 loyals died.In the end only a champion,Crintil and Landar himself alone remained to languish the bitter tale of their failure!
The last scenario was even more easy.Kalenz set his forces at the edge of the forest,which soon turned into a graveyard for Landar's units.The game would have ended in turn 11,if not I had wanted Kalenz to send the traitor Landar to the hell himself.

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Maiklas3000
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 14 - Human Alliance

Post by Maiklas3000 » August 10th, 2010, 6:10 am

chak_abhi wrote:Do you really mean the last 2 scenarios--Northern battle and End of War?They were a breeze.
I meant if you were upset about losing three level 3's in the Human Alliance, then you'd be really upset later when part of your army quits and then others turn against you. You probably lost twenty level 3's there.

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Maiklas3000
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 14 - Human Alliance

Post by Maiklas3000 » August 13th, 2010, 3:29 pm

The changelog for 1.8.4 says:
  • Legend of Wesmere:
    ...
    • Reduced the difficulty of scenario 14 and improved the AI of the ally.
Thanks for the changes.

I played again on 1.8.4 hard and won. I think I lost only a Captain and a Shamen (both against the trolls), and of course I promoted countless units. However, I'm very experienced at this particular scenario, so your mileage may vary.

The following may be spoilery, if you're wanting to replay the scenario without knowing the changes...
Spoiler:

sandmanvt
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Re: V1.7/1.8 - Scenario Review: LoW 14 - Human Alliance

Post by sandmanvt » October 13th, 2010, 1:50 am

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
10, 1.8.5

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
9. I knew to get the hell out of dodge with those final reinforcements, and make a last stand at the fortress with Aldar. Holding out wasn't too hard. The 3rd time I played I sent an assassin group to take out the troll leader, that helped a bit with income.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Fairly clear, but thought there was little point in defending the north after turn 10 or so.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Again, order to hold the north was problematic. Maybe when the black teams come in the King should say "Fall back!"


(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
As I had played this a year ago I kind of remembered what to do. The first time I went on the offensive trying to take out a leader or two - big mistake.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
9 - love the big battle. I'd give it a 10, except for the fact that I had to come back and play it a 3rd time, as I was in negative gold when I beat it which made the following scenarios completely impossible.


(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Give a bigger gold bonus at the end - maybe Aldar rewards you or something, a token for his dad being such a [censored].


(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Nope, but later scenarios are impossible with low gold so I had to restart it and penny pinch.

Yrth
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Re: V1.7/1.8 - Scenario Review: LoW 14 - Human Alliance

Post by Yrth » November 18th, 2010, 6:16 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Hard, 1.8.5

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
9, have been lucky and made it at my second run with one reload at the last turn, but this is again a hard nut

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Can be improved, missing adice to support your ally has already been commented on

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Dialog when the elven support arrives is misleading

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
I used a different strategy to most ones here in the forum, I recruited one keep of mostly high level elves and attacked the NW orcs and send only Kalenz and Olurf to my allys keep, until the end I finished all the NW orcs including the two enforcements and some roaming orcs and trolls from the south and east, lost no major unit here, when the orcs approached my allys keep I spent the rest of my gold to recall some dwarves and two druids, in the end it was really close, orcs and trolls surrounded the keep 3 rows deep, fairly impressing, at the last turn they occupied half of the keep and brought Kalenz and Aldor down to 1/3 hp, one turn more and nobody would have survived

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
10, great

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Reduce the gold for the orcs a bit

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
The reinforcements hit me unprepared at my first run.

EZE
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Re: V1.7/1.8 - Scenario Review: LoW 14 - Human Alliance

Post by EZE » November 25th, 2010, 12:30 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.8.0 on High Lord (Hard)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

9 (High)

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Quite Clear. Survive and don't let any of the key people die.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
It was pretty cool. I would have liked general Aldar to say more.
The elf reins around 9 was an awesome idea.
An advanced platoon of humans or some other help around 18 would add more to story and raise morale of the player.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Keeping Aldar alive. I could have held the north woods forever.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
3 (Low)

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Add an event where Aldar will request help if he has < 10 men left, for instance. This hint to player might increase chance for victory.

Aldar did a good job of not charging out to his death. I had to march all my elite dwarfs into his castle to keep him alive though.
If he kept a few troops in the castle it would have helped. Either late recruits or a few halberds from first batch.
Or giving him lvl2 melee troops instead of lvl3 might stall the enemies longer.

When the paladin shows up at victory, there is just one unit.
I can imagine it is hard to drop in units since the area is usually full of orcs.
My suggestion is place more like 8 or 12 units, even if they have to be east of current appearance to pull it off.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
I had to restart from the beginning twice.
A) Didn't send anyone to help him, dead at turn 12/13.
B) Sent 6 guys to help, they were heavily engaged and never reached castle.
But they did lure most orcs east which had gone north in (A). GG turn 10.

fabi
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Re: V1.7/1.8 - Scenario Review: LoW 14 - Human Alliance

Post by fabi » November 25th, 2010, 5:27 pm

EZE wrote:(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.8.0 on High Lord (Hard)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

9 (High)

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Quite Clear. Survive and don't let any of the key people die.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
It was pretty cool. I would have liked general Aldar to say more.
The elf reins around 9 was an awesome idea.
An advanced platoon of humans or some other help around 18 would add more to story and raise morale of the player.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Keeping Aldar alive. I could have held the north woods forever.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
3 (Low)

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Add an event where Aldar will request help if he has < 10 men left, for instance. This hint to player might increase chance for victory.

Aldar did a good job of not charging out to his death. I had to march all my elite dwarfs into his castle to keep him alive though.
If he kept a few troops in the castle it would have helped. Either late recruits or a few halberds from first batch.
Or giving him lvl2 melee troops instead of lvl3 might stall the enemies longer.

When the paladin shows up at victory, there is just one unit.
I can imagine it is hard to drop in units since the area is usually full of orcs.
My suggestion is place more like 8 or 12 units, even if they have to be east of current appearance to pull it off.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
I had to restart from the beginning twice.
A) Didn't send anyone to help him, dead at turn 12/13.
B) Sent 6 guys to help, they were heavily engaged and never reached castle.
But they did lure most orcs east which had gone north in (A). GG turn 10.
Hello EZE,
I strongly recommend an update to the latest 1.8 release which is numbered 1.8.5.
I did not do a good job, so especially LoW is not in a good state in 1.8.0.

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