V1.7/1.8 - 14 - Human Alliance

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V1.7/1.8 - 14 - Human Alliance

Post by Content Feedback » October 8th, 2008, 12:37 pm

The Legend of Wesmere, scenario 14 - Human Alliance:

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

Chimera
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 14 - Human Alliance

Post by Chimera » March 29th, 2010, 10:14 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

medium; 1.7.13

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

10. did it twice and failed. I had no problems with the previous scenarios. Obviously the chalenge was raised too high in this version.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Unclear. you're told (by the horseman) to keep the northern front, but it's not sufficient as the main problem is the human army being crushed by the orcs.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

problematic. The humans are crushed very quickly (first orc wave). Who would want an alliance with them ?

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

In my second try, I was able to kill the troll leader, resist to the north west orcs, divert a part of the south orcish army and dispatch a strong group to help the human general in his castle. The general still get killed at turn 16. (of 20) (in the first try, he was killed at turn 15)

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

4. repeatedly loose a scenario where the IA play for a long time is tiring.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

lower the difficulty to previous levels

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

death of human general. swarm of orcs.

Dieguitoarg
Posts: 9
Joined: April 3rd, 2010, 5:57 am

Re: Scenario Review: LoW 14 - Human Alliance

Post by Dieguitoarg » April 3rd, 2010, 6:33 am

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Medium - 1.8

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
10

Most difficult scenario I found, I have only played 5 campaigns though.
I haven't played the previous incarnations of this scenario but I agree completely with Chimera, the Human gets his army massacred in the first turns and its downhill from there.

Somebody should tell him NOT TO FIGHT IN THE NIGHT, especially since he's on the defensive... Have played it (and failed) twice so far... First turn I sent about 8 units to the trolls and managed to get them, but my lines were broken at the home front when orcs from the south started puoring in... it was turn 10 or so and the human ally was down to 5 units...

2nd time I sent a smaller force just to hold the trolls, managed to control the orcs coming from the south and north and even sent a couple of units to the human, but by turn 18 he was literally smashed (the leader even attacked a unit in the night and got his health to 5 or so!) and there were about 20 orcs just outside the castle...


(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Completely clear, don't let any of the important units die...


(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Very good, the sense of desperation is very well done...

The ally tells you just to focus on the northern front, which given the current design of the scenario is not enough to win it.
This could either be: a)Him not realizing he's not gonna be able to hold his own fort or b)Something to be cheked in the next version


(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
I haven't met them yet...


(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
10 and 1.
10 :D on the northern front, wave after wave of orcs plus some trolls is awesome... Really creates a sense that you are making a desperate last stand...

1 :( Ally shouldnt be so reckless and get himself killed, period.


(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Keep the same pressure in the north and reduce it in the south to the levels that of the previous versions... or change the ally's behaviour or give us the option to change it(like the times you commaned the other two allies, not very realistic though)


(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
No.

iserp
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Joined: June 24th, 2009, 3:33 pm

Re: Scenario Review: LoW 14 - Human Alliance

Post by iserp » April 3rd, 2010, 5:34 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

Medium 1.8.0


(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

10. I managed to do it in my 4th try (or 5th, i don't remember)


(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear.


(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

A bit misleading, since humans wouldnt hold by themselves.


(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

At first not only humans were crushed, but i was too (i was a bit reckless attacking the north orcs, and successive waves would kill me).

In my victorius try the scenario played a bit different from what (i think) was intended. I recruited a small force (Cleodil + Olurf + Sylph + some dwarves) and sent it against the west trolls, while recollecting as much taxes from villages as possible. Kalenz would wait at his camp till orcs arrived, then i recalled all my veterans and be defensive (some kind of tortoise formation, :P). I drived a little to the south (on the verge of the forest) and then south orcs were diverted towards me, relieving pressure from humans. The troops i sent to the west went south to help the human leader once they defeated the troll king; although i think humans would have been able to hold by themselves.

I wouldn't have won if the south orcs attacked humans instead of me

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

3. Trying to play defensive (and managing to do it) was entertaining; but AI takes very long turns, and it is a pain to see how bad the human side is playing.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Mmmm, difficult question. I think you have to tone down the orcs a little bit. Maybe you could add some turns and make the orc waves a bit more spaced, so you have a little more time to go back and help the humans. BTW, i received very few reinforcements (just 2 elvish champions and elvish rider at lvl 3 (i don't know his name in english)). I am not sure if it is normal or if i let some loyal troops to die before. It would be nice if you received some lvl 1 units, to make it effectively a little army.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

When someone killed my leaders. Sometimes i would be overrun by orcs, sometimes i would be reckless. Human leader is a liability, but i used to lose before that.

Dieguitoarg
Posts: 9
Joined: April 3rd, 2010, 5:57 am

Re: Scenario Review: LoW 14 - Human Alliance

Post by Dieguitoarg » April 4th, 2010, 1:56 am

Update of my previous post...

I was able to beat the level by taking the guys that killed the trolls and stationing them in the ally castle, the AI apparently doesn't like attacking fortified dwarves...

My review is still the same, the ally should have either better AI or less pressure on him... If that were changed I think this would be the most challenging and entertaining scenario I've played so far...

There seems to be a bug that whenever the orcs get reinforcements your upkeep is reduced to ZERO... not that I complain, I thought it was WAI, but then I had to reload the same turn and my upkeep was back again...

iserp
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Joined: June 24th, 2009, 3:33 pm

Re: Scenario Review: LoW 14 - Human Alliance

Post by iserp » April 5th, 2010, 10:58 am

There seems to be a bug that whenever the orcs get reinforcements your upkeep is reduced to ZERO... not that I complain, I thought it was WAI, but then I had to reload the same turn and my upkeep was back again...

mmmm, it is true, i believe it is like you have double villages.

Auntie
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Joined: March 30th, 2010, 11:00 am

Re: Scenario Review: LoW 14 - Human Alliance

Post by Auntie » April 7th, 2010, 12:05 am

The Legend of Wesmere, scenario 14 - Human Alliance:

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

1. Medium on 1.7.3 and 1.7.5 and 1.8.0,
2. Easy on 1.6.5 (trying unsuccessfully to finish the 1. above, I wanted to understand how it worked. But I was disappointed since things have changed a lot between these versions. :) )

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

1. 10+
2. 3

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Not that clear in latest versions where it appears necessary to help Aldar (which is not requested by himself).

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Normally clear.


(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

To be able to recall veterans (money, money) and then to survive and not lose all the lvl 2/3 units.
:(

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

1-save and load is tiring. But that's the only way to advance. I have the feeling that the difficulty in version 1.8.0 is still greater than in 1.7.


(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

It would be more pleasant with AI not "cheating". Funny how, when there's a ranger in ambush, immediately orcs come on him/her AND attack (particularly when it's Landar) :annoyed:

There are too many enemies. This evening, at row 9, after elves help have come, Kalenz had : 34 units, Aldar : 5, and there were 80 enemies :
Pirror : 8
Tan Grub :10
Grol : 5
Khafa-Urg : 6
Gadash : 17
Erunk : 16
Prodash : 18

and a second wave to come... Until now I could not go further that the 18th row with heavy losses. That's not fun. It takes time to level up units.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

The difficulty that does really not look as medium but hard.

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Majki-Fajki
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 14 - Human Alliance

Post by Majki-Fajki » April 24th, 2010, 2:22 pm

Still trying to beat scenario on hard difficulty.


I found this mission completely unfinishable.

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Majki-Fajki
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Location: Pila, Poland

Re: Scenario Review: LoW 14 - Human Alliance

Post by Majki-Fajki » April 24th, 2010, 3:34 pm

Okey, I want to state it clear.

I've been playing LoW whole week (hard level). Even that at some parts it's very weak campaign (not tested enough in my opinion) it was quite pleasure. Until now.

This scenario is completely frakked up, from the player's point of view. I will now try to specify developer's mistakes:
1. Ork leaders - there is already lots of them at the beginning. In turn 6, additional 3 comes up. WTF? Few next turn and another 3 comes. That is the moment, when the scenario is blocked. It's impossible to win it.
2. Whole map is a developer's big mistake too. Open plains, a lot of them. Everybody get hit almost every time. No strategy at all. Simple hack and slash story. Who has more troops is the winner (orks).
3. Ally forces. Of course - they not recruiting knights. IN OPEN PLAINS WHERE CAVALRY KILLS EVERYTHING. And of course, they attack at night. In other scenarios (Heir to the trone) - Orks did not attack me during th day. So it's possible to script that. But what for here? Let the ally forces die in two turns!
4. Ork forces. Mostly lvl.2 units. dozens of them. Why not lvl.3? It would be fun!
5. Elf reinforcements. Comes into the middle of marching ork forces. Very smart, oh yeah, perfectly written event! Why not in the middle of 4 ork leader's forces?
6. Last, but not least - If you plan to sell BoW on iPhone (with such severe poorly written scenarios)... Ekhm, good luck :lol2:

I love BoW, because it's really smart game, with very good game mechanism.

BUT THIS IS SECOND SCENARIO (next to The Saurian Treasury) IN JUST ONE CAMPAIGN, WHICH SHOULD NEVER BE RELEASED AS STABLE!

I have been playing this campaign whole week, and now I'm gonna give myself o lot of free time from BoW. I wasted a lot of free time (yes, wasted - because this scenario is a blocker) just to be pi$$ed off seriously.

fabi
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 14 - Human Alliance

Post by fabi » May 1st, 2010, 9:47 am

Did some balancing to the map.

Lowered the amount of gold by 100 for every enemy.
Added more elves arriving with the elvish reenforcement.

hermes23
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Joined: May 4th, 2010, 7:30 pm

Re: Scenario Review: LoW 14 - Human Alliance

Post by hermes23 » May 14th, 2010, 9:40 pm

The Legend of Wesmere, scenario 14 - Human Alliance:

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
a) Medium 1.7.6, b) Hard 1.8.1

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
a) 5, b) 10+++

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very. But as some posters have commented - somewhat misleading as Human ally cannot hold his own.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
One of the best storylines and plot for scenario I've played (I've finished all ML campaigns but UtBS and NR, and about 10UMC). It's not the usual 'enemy spends all the gold in the beginning' scenario.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
1. Keeping Human ally alive on Hard 1.8.1 - had to spread my forces too thin just to cover him. Starting gold about 450 (is that too low?). Sent a team of stalwarts and dwarf steelclad-lord and shyde to the castle to protect ally and to kill the occasional stray troll. Also had 2shydes and 2 sylphs to hold the trolls in check, and kill stray level 2 dogs from northern enemies hoping to flank me. And the rest were just to keep orcs off the forest.
2. On Hard - I had a team of about 6 shydes in forests to keep units healthy or slow level 2 orcs/dogs, so it was fine. It was winnable when elvish reinforcements came in turn 9, but then it turned IMPOSSIBLE with the 2nd orcish reinforcements. They spawned too many level 2 units and I was already on negative gold. Managed to hold out until the end of turns - and good thing it ended when it did! My defensive lines (mark plural) were broken in the forests the previous turn and the elves there surrounded. And dogs and orcish slayers were sniffing too much around the castle too, attacking/poisoning my 2 elvish champions and avenger i sent later. True, AI doesn't like attacking dwarves in castles. Was I playing the 'toned down' version? Because I had to SERIOUSLY ABUSE the save/reload just to survive.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
On Medium - 8 (managed to defeat all enemies).
On Hard - 3. I understand the 'defensive' nature of the scenario, but it's not fun being unreasonably overwhelmed. Also the Human ally is stupid and attacks at night instead of retreating / forming defensive lines. Also NOT fun having to abuse the save/reload.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
To control the Ally's behaviour - perhaps like in "Elves Last Stand". Or as someone else suggested, to allow control of ally's units. And to lower enemy gold (which you already did).

By the way, it is kind of a redundant statement that when the cavalry arrive at dusk, the orcs retreat because they were scared of the handful of 'horsies'... and as I said, the orcs were on the verge of winning when they retreated.


(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Plenty. Hence saving and reloading just to survive. Perhaps I was being too defensive with the shaman line and made too many shydes instead of enchantress/sylphs? But I find the game easily winnable (yes, even in Northern Battle/Siege) with only 2 sylphs (with minimum starting gold also, i.e. 100) - besides it's much easier to kill shydes than sylphs when they join Landar later.

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Daxion
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 14 - Human Alliance

Post by Daxion » May 20th, 2010, 6:04 pm

The Legend of Wesmere, scenario 14 - Human Alliance:
(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Medium 1.8.0
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
10, haven't beaten it yet
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
In theory very clear, with the (already stated) problem that the Battle Plan doesn't survive contact with orcs, it seems.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
There wasn't much. At least not in the start of the scenario, don't know about the end though.
There's a minor bug in the dialog in the german version. When the elvish reinforcements arrive they state: "Kalenz ist angekommen" ("Kalen has arrived"). That is a bit strange, since he is clearly there since round one.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Keeping Aldar alive. The Moron has the suicide tendency to send his troops out into a low defence enviroment against overwhelming odds. The Battle Plan suggested that I don't need to care about him, loosing quite a bit of high leveled units when they rushed to his aid (and he still dies...).
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
I'm not quite sure. Currently it is more of a 1-3, but given changes in the balancing this could go to a 8 maybe.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I think the secario could be quite a bit of fun, standing there afterwards thinking: how did I survive that (provided that you survive it).
First thing clearly is the problem that the AI doesn't stand a chance against the orcs. Putting in a bit for high-def hexes on the battlefield might help to slow the battle there down (Trees).
(somehow Lavender-Fields in the Provence cross my mind seeing this scenario, don't know why, maybe it's because of "Perfume"). I like the fact that a lot of high level units are fighting there, but when I finally reach Aldar, I still have problem. Maybe mixing in level 1 units might help (and then having alot of them, don't know how to persuade the AI to mixing them in though).
Another problem I see are all those big tomato surprises. Every turn I kept thinking: if Aldar gets crushed so bad, and even more Orcs are turning up, then surely human reinforcements must turn up just about now. It was nice to see that they didn't putting more pressure on, but this only works if I manage to beat the scenario. So the first wave of Orc reinforcements had somehow a positive effect, but the second wave was to much (specially since I crushed the orcs up north, turned away, and suddenly had their reinforcements in my back). At least for the second way give a warning ahead (possibly by means of dialogue from the elvish reinforcements).
To me it was not clear that we needed to survive till turn 20 because then the human reinforcements arrive. Maybe a human ahead detachment could arrive (and reduce a bit the pressure on Aldar) telling you that the human army is 1/2 day(s) away (and maybe also drop the coin that their arrival will also mark the end of the battle, since there are so many).
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Whee, where do I start. I had to spread my forces quite thin, resulting in the occational loss of a hero unit. Wrong position of troops when the tomato surprises came up, and then keeping Aldar alive. The only way I even got to turn 14 was often by save/load to protect me from enemy luck streaks.

kontorotsui
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 14 - Human Alliance

Post by kontorotsui » June 20th, 2010, 10:26 am

The Legend of Wesmere, scenario 14 - Human Alliance:

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

1.8.0 hard level with an hefty starting 528 gold

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

10+++ (impossible so far)
I manage to kill the trolls easily with spellcasters and sharpshooters.
I manage to hold off easily enough the north orcs.
It is impossible to do that AND keep the human leader alive AND hold off the huge third wave coming from north AND south!
I understand fighting against overwhelming odds, it is a challenge, but even if you play great and hold them off, you cannot prevent them from killing the human leader.
I tried to send a few dwarf stalwards to help the human player, but then I don't have enough gold to fight the rest of the orcs.
It is a no-win scenario at hard level, and I'm a very experienced player (I played Wesnoth for 2 years) who played this scenario with a lot of starting gold (528). I could start the whole campain and focus on having the highest gold for this scenario, maybe with 700+ gold I could do better (at least I could send more scouts to take villages back from the stupid human player) but I'm not sure I can get so much.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Very clear. A pity you can't accomplish them.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

It is interesting... that the human player states he can easily beat the south orcs while he's wastes his high level army with pointless night attacks and he's easily killed.
The human player AI sucks. A lot.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Can barely survive, with a lot of luck and save/reload, up to turn 14-16. By then, I'm either overrun and/or the human leader is killed.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

Would be fun if the enemy AI had much less gold and at least 50% level 1 units instead of all level 2 ones. And less base gold. Even when you beat the first wave army, their leaders, which are impossible to kill because the second wave arrives early) keep raising level 2 units.
I know it is supposed to be hard, at hard level, but this is a 100% lose scenario unless you cheat (save/reload) a lot and this is not fun.
So my vote is 1, but could be 8-9 if properly balanced.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Tons of ideas.
1) Put a fixed spearman in each village west and south of the fortress, to slow down the orcs.
2) Make the human AI less stupid.
3) Give a regiment of cavalry (6-8 level 2 cavalry units) to the human at dawn of second day. They rule the orcs in the open fields and would cut most of the second wave.
4) Have the second and third wave arrive a bit later between each other and the first.
5) Lower the starting gold and/or the base gold of each leader.
6) Put fixed level 2-3 infantry in the fortress to protect the human leader.
7) Add a few forest hex near the fortress to put some elven archer to slow down the orcs.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

The event which made me lose the game is the big second wave and the huge third wave which overran my forces and killed the human leader before I could do anything.

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Maiklas3000
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 14 - Human Alliance

Post by Maiklas3000 » June 29th, 2010, 11:29 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
hard; 1.8.2

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
10, impossible with 472 gold? I have not yet succeeded.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
The human general's request to hold off the north force is misleading. I suggest making him in the model of General Montgomery, and have him say something useful like, "Ah, so you have come to my aid. Very well then. I'm the most experienced commander. So, here is what you will do. Hold off the northern force with a handful of crack troops at strategic locations. Hit the troll force in the east hard. And for heaven's sake, send me some dwarf stalwards or something to hold the castle. Meanwhile, I'm ordering my troops to do a suicide charge. Cheerio."

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Everything is hard, but protecting the human leader is the nearly impossible part. I can get him a dwarf lord and a couple other units, but that's not nearly enough.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I don't like the massive elf reinforcement force. Too many troops to push around. And they just teleport right into the middle of the forest.

Where are my marshalls that were kidnapped after the battle of Ka'lian? I could have really used them here.

In a huge scenario like this, you can't really make it nearly impossible, because there are too many fronts. If one part of one front fails, the front will fail and then probably everything will fail. Make it a relatively easy scenario... there will still be opportunity to lose loyal units, level 3 units, or even the whole battle.

I second the suggestion to have a well-timed calvary sweep in order to improve the ally's situation.

Or have the ally just hold the castle.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
I tried about 5 times. Human leader died 4 times. Critical unit died once.

Thrash
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 14 - Human Alliance

Post by Thrash » June 30th, 2010, 3:37 am

impossible with 472 gold? I have not yet succeeded.
I did it with 346 on medium, but just I was in bad shape when I hit end of turns (20), don't know if I would have lasted much longer.

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