V1.9/1.10 - 05 - The Saurian Treasury

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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 5 - The Saurian Treasury

Postby Thrash » July 11th, 2010, 11:45 am

Zenogias wrote:After you steal the gold, the unit carrying the gold still has the gold coins item image on top of him if he is recalled in future scenarios.


I'm seeing this too.
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 5 - The Saurian Treasury

Postby Yrth » November 11th, 2010, 10:19 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Hard, 1.8.5

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
7, without a bunch of l3 units and enough gold 9

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
ok

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Saurians hit hard and are even harder to hit, skirmishers are a pest, I couldn´t get to the southern keep before the wave from the north rushed me, at this time I was sure I had to reload but finally lost just 1 l2 unit

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
6

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
None

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
None

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
...
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 05 - The Saurian Treasury

Postby taptap » March 4th, 2012, 9:57 pm

This one is really hard (on High Lord, due to minimal gold = 200 - pretty hard to get more gold from the previous scenario as it uses 80% carryover and only has 12 villages). Part of the trouble for me is that the loyal Marshall (loyal fighter from first scenario is neither autorecalled nor in my recall list for mysterious reasons, although still mentioned in the savefile, he didn't die). And of course healer spam as mentioned by Maiklas (in 1.8.x) is no option given that you only have fresh L1 shamans and Cleodil.

Looks still possible with better strategy, but needs more precision than I have today + I have to forget about all luxuries like recruiting a wose for levelling (even if they do great against saurians). Recall list: 1 champion, 3 heroes, 1 captain (loyal marshall is missing), 1 ranger, 1 rider, 2 sharpshooter, Landar is a ranger, Kalenz 3 xp from marshall (I had plenty of losses in earlier scenarios, esp. when closing in on the camping L2 orcs in scenario 3, but still this is more than I can recall anyway, a good cavalry might have been useful here).

Later: I was of course completely wrong. Lacking Anduilas was a handicap, but the main problem was I mishandled the woses. They rock agains saurians.
Last edited by taptap on March 11th, 2012, 8:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 05 - The Saurian Treasury

Postby rmj » March 5th, 2012, 5:53 am

The objectives say a horse is needed to carry the gold, but my horse archer could not do so.

1.10 medium.

In the past I have had much difficulty with this level, but this time things went fairly smoothly. I used no level 3 units, and lost only a couple of units. I sent a few archers north to capture some villages and divert a few of the enemy, but the main strength was that my units quickly gained positions where
the saurians usually had to attack from flat ground.
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 05 - The Saurian Treasury

Postby taptap » March 5th, 2012, 7:30 am

rmj wrote:The objectives say a horse is needed to carry the gold, but my horse archer could not do so.

1.10 medium.


Do you use an old save? I could not level scouts to horse archers on 1.10.1.
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 05 - The Saurian Treasury

Postby rmj » March 6th, 2012, 5:43 am

Do you use an old save? I could not level scouts to horse archers on 1.10.1.


I started from the beginning of the campaign, so no, I did not.

The horse archer is unavailable for recall in the next scenario.
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 05 - The Saurian Treasury

Postby fabi » March 9th, 2012, 1:29 pm

The horse archer was forgotten by me, shouldn't have shipped with 1.10.
Sorry.
The next time I am doing such experiments I will guard them with #ifver to make sure they don't slip in.
It has been removed from 1.10.1.
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 05 - The Saurian Treasury

Postby taptap » March 11th, 2012, 8:04 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

1.10.1, High Lord (hard), minimal gold (200)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

Rapidly reduced difficulty if you start thinking and recruit woses. 7 (+1 for the harsh turn limit)

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Well, there is no real way to know before you take the treasure how long it will take to the signpost from there (even for a L2 rider it is 5 turns).

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

After all the talk in this scenario they decide to go away from the Kalian. This is the first time I can recruit Wose in a campaign, but there isn't even a line of dialog about this.

The dialog advises an approach to this scenario that likely doesn't work on hard after the change in the recruiting through scenario 1-3 and definitely isn't the best one on easier difficulties with the more relaxed turn limit. You can now for the first time recruit scouts in scenario 4, where they don't really shine because of the huge damage they take from saurians, but to finish this in the advertised way, you would probably need some experienced scout types and must be willing to take heavy losses. As it is now, the northern saurians are all over you very fast, and they will crush some scouts running around with ease. So, you don't really play the rush with scouts, but still the saurians have such a high priority for scouts that it is easy to lure out their leaders with a bait. For me at least, playing defensively but killing augurs during the night, crush the saurians during the second day, approach during the second night and make your main moves during the third day was the way that worked fine, rushing attempts to take the gold however don't look like they can work at all as even a quick rider takes more time to go from the gold to the point to leave the map than the saurians need to cross the whole map + you can't stop them as they are skirmishers.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Turn limit, I could only finish by sacrificing an elvish rider to lure out the last enemy leader. (Carrying the treasure was impossible within the limit already - I did that on turn 14.) A wose heavy recruit is very efficient for the main battle but some fast units are needed as well. (Recalled Marshall, Hero, Ranger, a scout with experience, recruited 3 wose, 2 shamans, rest fighters.)

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

7 (potentially more)

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Having to reload because of a surprise (you are still comfortably within the turn limit but you can't win by carrying the treasure) is never good, there would be nothing wrong in announcing it right from start, even directly in the objectives or indirectly via a more clear hint in the dialog. That taking up the gold takes a turn surprised me first, but of course this is due to the village.

Change AI recruiting, mix in some skirmishers. (This will make it more difficult.)

Make dialog less misleading or taking the gold a better option.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

Yes. The above, carelessness in the endgame (they still have all skirmish and you don't have time to wait during the second and third night), wrong recruits in the first tries.
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 05 - The Saurian Treasury

Postby Ninjuri » May 1st, 2012, 4:07 am

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Easy 1.10.2
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
10
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Slightly clear, i got that you have to steal the gold or kill the saurians, the only problem was "stealing the gold" was a bit too unclear. I got that i had to put a rider on the treasury, but i had no idea that after he was there, i would have to lead him to the sign post. I had exhausted all my units just getting him there so i was already surrounded by enemies. Also it took me 5 minutes to even find the sign post in the forest.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
OK
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Beating it, the amount of enemies was too great. The saurians from the top can scale the battlefield so fast, i sent about 5 or 6 units in the woods and villages to hold them off, but they didn't last even 2 turns. Also, who's idea was it to put a lv. 3 on top of the treasury? Seriously, killing that guy was such a feat, and getting blasted by reinforcements from the lower castle didn't help at all.
The first time i played this, i tried to go for all-out-war, kill the saurians, and then take the gold, but i failed miserably because their resources obviously out-matched mine. The second time was a quick as possible hit-and-run on the treasury itself with elvish riders, however they all died before the last one finally got in the treasury, but was by that time surrounded with no reinforcements.

As per my own personal rule, after failing twice, i will now just debug to get through this scenario, this is what it has come to.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
1
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Take the lv3 guy off the treasury, he has no place being there and his sole purpose was to make me rage.
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
See 5
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 05 - The Saurian Treasury

Postby fabi » May 1st, 2012, 6:14 am

Ninjuri wrote:(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Slightly clear, i got that you have to steal the gold or kill the saurians, the only problem was "stealing the gold" was a bit too unclear. I got that i had to put a rider on the treasury, but i had no idea that after he was there, i would have to lead him to the sign post. I had exhausted all my units just getting him there so i was already surrounded by enemies.

Agreed, the objective change comes as a tomato surprise, I will rework how the objectives are presented to the player and make it clear that reaching the treasury
does not end the scenario.

Also it took me 5 minutes to even find the sign post in the forest.

The sign post should blink for a few seconds when you learn about the new objectives.
Didn't that happen?
However, I can change the terrain to make it more visible and I can also write the coordinates into the objectives.
That should do the trick.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Beating it, the amount of enemies was too great. The saurians from the top can scale the battlefield so fast, i sent about 5 or 6 units in the woods and villages to hold them off, but they didn't last even 2 turns.

Don't you already have a reasonable group of leveled units to keep them off for some longer? You should send some lvl2 and lvl3 units north, together with some fresh
recruited lvl1 units (cannon fodder), and still have enough experienced soldiers available to do the stealing at the south.
How many lvl3 and how many lvl2 units have you collected?

Also note, the ai of the northern saurians does not run for the treasury, it just wants to kill your units.
Thus you can play hide and run with them in the forests to the north, delaying them does not necessarily mean that you need to stand your ground.

Also, who's idea was it to put a lv. 3 on top of the treasury? Seriously, killing that guy was such a feat, and getting blasted by reinforcements from the lower castle didn't help at all.

Killing him should be easy if you use the "Elvish Marksman" or his advancement the "Elvish Sharpshooter". Their marksman features grant you 60% hit chance at least,
that should do it with 2 attacks of such units.

As per my own personal rule, after failing twice, i will now just debug to get through this scenario, this is what it has come to.

Please note that not every campaign does support debug skipping. You may skip some events that set a variable which is missing in later scenarios.
I once checked that Legend of Wesmere is debug skip save, but I can't be sure that this it still holds.
If I provide you with a "fixed" file for the scenario would you try it again?

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
1

That makes me a little sad, took much time to redesign the scenario. In earlier versions you just had to kill the leaders.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Take the lv3 guy off the treasury, he has no place being there and his sole purpose was to make me rage.

The first version of the current design came without the treasury guard. I thought it was a little too easy then.
How about making him a lvl2 at least at "easy"?

Thank you for your feedback.
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 05 - The Saurian Treasury

Postby taptap » May 1st, 2012, 9:22 am

Ninjuri wrote:(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Beating it, the amount of enemies was too great.


Recruit some wose (they are good against saurians and regenerate) and don't rush - especially against saurians you need to keep your formation compact. At least on hard it is easier to kill both leaders than to get the treasure without killing them anyway. (And if you play with debug you kill your long term fun, believe me.)
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 05 - The Saurian Treasury

Postby Ninjuri » May 1st, 2012, 3:48 pm

Looking back, i was probably harsh, but in my defense, any normal rational person's judgement will be skewed when they get rolled as hard as i did. That being said, down to business:

The sign post should blink for a few seconds when you learn about the new objectives.
Didn't that happen?
However, I can change the terrain to make it more visible and I can also write the coordinates into the objectives.
That should do the trick.


It may have, i can't really remember. I remember one scenario i played a long time ago had like a red circle or something around the sign post, that might also be something to consider.

Don't you already have a reasonable group of leveled units to keep them off for some longer? You should send some lvl2 and lvl3 units north, together with some fresh
recruited lvl1 units (cannon fodder), and still have enough experienced soldiers available to do the stealing at the south.
How many lvl3 and how many lvl2 units have you collected?


I had 2 lv.2 riders and that's about it.

Also note, the ai of the northern saurians does not run for the treasury, it just wants to kill your units.
Thus you can play hide and run with them in the forests to the north, delaying them does not necessarily mean that you need to stand your ground.


How am i supposed to know that though? One would have to do some experimenting to find this behavior out. When i play a scenario, i always assume that the objective of the enemies is whatever stops me from completing my objective.

Killing him should be easy if you use the "Elvish Marksman" or his advancement the "Elvish Sharpshooter". Their marksman features grant you 60% hit chance at least,
that should do it with 2 attacks of such units.


I had neither of those. (see above)


The first version of the current design came without the treasury guard. I thought it was a little too easy then.
How about making him a lvl2 at least at "easy"?

Yeah i'll give it a go and see what's good with that.

Recruit some wose (they are good against saurians and regenerate) and don't rush - especially against saurians you need to keep your formation compact. At least on hard it is easier to kill both leaders than to get the treasure without killing them anyway. (And if you play with debug you kill your long term fun, believe me.)


I'll try that but i did reqruit some woses with noses the first time, to little avail. When i debug, i only give essential units (in this case the rider with the gold) a bunch of health, and then make sure to delete it from the re-call list once the level is over so i cover my tracks.
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 05 - The Saurian Treasury

Postby Dugi » May 1st, 2012, 4:42 pm

(1) Difficulty - medium
(2) How difficult it was - bloody/impossible: I recruited too many units in the previous one, awaiting something hard, so I had only the basic gold, it was impossible to defeat the enemies even with retrying/reloading, Landar was dying all the time; I had to restart from the previous scenario's start, recruiting much less units, and it was pretty easy then
(3) Objectives - clear, but I think that an addendum to the objectives of the previous scenario would be useful
(4) How interesting - nothing particular, but the winter retribution was a finale to this scenario
(5) Challenges - the skirmisher ability is extremely annoying, although it was a change, but the thing that it always turns into is sacrificing 2-3 units per turn
(6) Fun - Sacrificing my own units has never been fun
(7) Changes I would like - increase the minimal starting gold
(8) Problematic event - see above
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 05 - The Saurian Treasury

Postby DanChem » March 22nd, 2013, 9:06 am

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Easy (1.10), 1230 starting Gold, more than necessary men in the recall list.
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
Before discovering my mistake surprisingly hard (6). After discovering it as expected easy. (3)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
It was not clear to me what I would have to do after finishing the enemy sitting on the gold. Ultimately I decided against fighting him and chose to finish all others off.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Clear and with two very different options pretty interesting. (8)
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
I started with recalling my many strong troops and expanding circular. However I didn't came to recruit any Wose's that way and was a bit unpleased with some of my really strong hero's falling. After starting over and using many Wose the game was completely different. So being a little more patient and to don't storm with the jewels in front I guess.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
Quite funny, especially when seeing the difference after making it completely wrong in the first run. (9)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
None, really.
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Described at (5).
(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
I didn't have a look and am not very familiar with.
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 05 - The Saurian Treasury

Postby paul_ik » May 13th, 2013, 10:14 pm

I want to say thanks to the authors of this scenario.
On hard, with minimum gold (if I remeber correctly it was 200) it was a really tough mission. It took 5-6 attempts to get through, but never the gameplay was annoying.
Saurians are great, demand unique tactics with compact positions. Playing with no reloads the blunders are easy to make with lonely skirmisher sneaking past front lines and killing main character. Combined with scenario's small turn limit this leads to challenging gameplay.
So what were my attempts.
Most of the time I tried to recall high level units from previous scenarios (3lvl archers, fighters), adding a couple of Cleodil's units just because I had money left. With this approach I first tried to go forward and kill leaders. No need to say this was a complete failure. Saurians swarming and killing my units easily.
Then I tried to keep my small army in forest, this time I hold against saurians with minimal loses. But when the wave of enemies was cleared I had no time to kill leaders. I tried this strategy in different variations until I finally gave up on it. This was a real disappointment.
But then I tried woses-all-in strategy (just for fun): spent all money on woses. So I got 8 woses, 1lvl Kalenz, 3lvl Sharpshooter Landar, Cleodil, loyal 1lvl fighter. Seemed like a [censored] army, not capable of delivering any damage, when compared to my previous variants. I sent 3 woses to the north forest to distract some forces and possibly kill north leader. The rest of the army went to south part of the forest. Interesting, but main enemy forces ignored my woses commando squad (even though I moved them out of forest) and head directly to my main army. "Here we go, another reload" was my initial thought. Stand against this ridiculously large amount of lizards with only 5 woses and a couple of main characters seemed impossible. But I managed to do this without losing anyone! There were some lucky moments, but the main point was that the western forest is large enough to allow to block skirmishers from reaching damaged units. Leveling woses helped a lot with healing them. While this epic battle occured my woses commando went directly to north leader. Some battles occured with decent lizard forces, but woses managed to kill north leader. I had 5 turns left to kill south leader with main wave of saurians dead. This part was relatively easy, thanks to leader coming out to meet us. I finished the scenario on turn 16.

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.10.2, Hard

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
The way to complete sceario by stealing treasure is unclear. At first I've thought that moving my unit on treasure tile is sufficient. Then I've thought that any unit can carry treasure to the sign (I really refused to believe I need scout for this). Maybe the goals stated in the description are ok in english, but in my locale (russian) it simply states something like "enter the treasury and take money", without any mention of scout until I actully do enter the treasure. There is a slight hint from Cleodil at the start but that is not enough. And by the way is it really possible to steal treasure on hard?

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
The dialogs are minimal but sufficient

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Turn limit

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8, nice scenario where you really have to think

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Make better description of objectives, make treasure stealing easier to accomplish

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Most of the time running out of turns, sometimes losing main character
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