V1.7/1.8 - Scenario Review: LoW 3 - Ka'lian under Attack

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V1.7/1.8 - Scenario Review: LoW 3 - Ka'lian under Attack

Post by Content Feedback » October 8th, 2008, 12:11 pm

Below is a small 'survey'. It'd be greatly appreciated if people who have played the third scenario of The Legend of Wesmere would fill it out.

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?

Schierke
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Location: Colombia.

Re: Scenario Review: LoW 3 - Ka'lian under Attack

Post by Schierke » April 10th, 2010, 2:03 am

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

1.8 medium.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

3.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear enough.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Decent.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

The only challenge i can think of is not having any way to cure poison during the first part of the scenario, but the fact that your enemy is not really numerous, doesn't have high level units and is fighting from a ver bad terrain makes this irrelevant.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

6, i like the idea of two part stage and it was fun to play those turns without caring about saving or leveling units.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Make the enemy stronger when Kalenz's forces arrive, the west orc leader didn't recruit anything at all and just sat there while the elf allies marched toward him and killed him, the trops for north-west orc seemed threatening at first sight but i think that in my game the AI allies would have been able to beat them all by themselves.

The other thing is about the extra objective of killing that lvl 2 assasin, what exactly did you gain from it?, that should be made clear.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

Nope, piece of cake.

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Majki-Fajki
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 3 - Ka'lian under Attack

Post by Majki-Fajki » April 18th, 2010, 3:58 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Hard. 1.8
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
4.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
I don't know what I get for killing ork assasin-leader.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Clear and nice.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Manage to kill all leaders in time.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
9. Superb, two-parts, allows to apply different kind of strategies. My was simple. Breakthrough from the island to abandoned fortress in the north-east corner of the map, to Defend units till 9th turn. And then - surprise. Right in the middle of my forces appears Kalenz with some units and gold and recall list:) From there some elvish scouts to grab villages and rest of the team slowly advance against ork forces. In almost last turn - enemy ork leader charged me:)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
None.
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
None.
(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
N/A

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Maiklas3000
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 3 - Ka'lian under Attack

Post by Maiklas3000 » June 23rd, 2010, 1:01 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
hardest; 1.8.1.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
9.8, just shy of impossible. Either I suck or the scenario has been adjusted, since others found it easy. I played it many, many times, and I haven't yet beat it without a "back to turn XX" move, though I did beat it with a single "undo" of a stupid move. This was when the orcs were in their easier "wait to die" ball configuration, though. Note that I've done all the preceding campaigns on the hardest setting without much problem.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear enough.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Dialog is not clear. Kalenz says, "'wait' changed to attack", and I don't know what that means, unless it's a debugging statement. It seems to only happen when the orcs banzai charge instead of forming a ball at upper left.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The first 9 turns require near optimal moves, and even then you need no runs of bad luck. After that, everything changes, which takes you by surprise the first time, and you'll probably need to fail at least once before you figure out that you need to babysit the allied leader. For his sake, you need to take care of the wolves in the eastern forest and block the northern entrance to the fortress, but if the orcs banzai charge then you'll be hard pressed just to hold your line.

The orcish warriors are brutal and mow down my level one troops. I had to replay the campaign to have more gold. I had a bit over 200 the first time and a bit over 300 the second time, letting me buy enough cannon fodder. Remember, I'm on the most difficult setting, so it's hard to get much more gold than that. I came into the scenario with two sorcerers, a druid and a loyal captain, and Landar on the verge of becoming a Ranger.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
2, as it's too much of a nightmare scenario, a near "kobiyashi maru." I both hate and love it for this aspect. The precision required during the first 9 turns is tedious. For example, usually the allied leader needs to lend his leadership to attacks, then move to a keep and recruit, then move to support more attacks. If you should forget to recruit one turn, you may be hosed. Even if you do everything perfectly, you may still lose, because the allied leader will try to kill himself.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I would much prefer if the death of the allied leader does not result in a loss. I would much prefer if the allied leader did not squander the troops I struggled so hard to preserve, and would instead do a "hold" with all his troops, like the orcs sometimes do.

You might want to put in a written warning that you might want to turn off the shroud updating for at least the first few turns, because it only gets in the way.

It's much more fun when the orcs banzai charge, but it's also more challenging, to the point of being too difficult. I suggest fewer orc warriors or less money for the orcs. Or I think it would be fun if when you "kill" the troll leader in the previous scenario, you get a bonus: he surrenders and agrees to fight on your side for this one battle in exchange for his life.

The orc assassin leader often just sits there in the northern hills waiting to be slaughtered, which is very odd when all the other orcs are running for their lives to the northwest fortress. At least give the poor guy a one hex fortress, so that it makes sense for him to sit in that location. It would also make him more of a challenge to kill.

When the allied leader is poisoned and you try to help him out by right-clicking and saying "send allied leader here" to send him to a village, he just dashes in and out without stopping to get cured. He should stop for a turn wherever you send him.

The AI for the allied forces needs to be improved, and it would be nice if the allied forces would cooperate with yours in some sense. I suggest taking a cue from flocks of birds or ant colonies, which self-organize by having each individual operate according to some simple rules. There should be rules like:

* somewhat prefer a hex two away from a friendly unit
* much prefer a hex next to a friendly unit
* more prefer a hex in line with two friendly units
* greatly prefer better terrain (no swimming without a good reason!)
* if you're poisoned, tremendously prefer villages, curers and healers, in that order
* if you're about to level up and are low on hit points, go for an easy kill if available (or easy combat if you just need one point), but otherwise avoid combat and seek healing

It would probably work best to have the computer move each unit one hex at a time, though that would be a big change.

I was surprised to find that an allied captain does not give leadership to my level one units.

There are three keeps, but only two of them have labels. I didn't realize that there was a third one for a long time. Rename the "South Tower" as "East Tower" and add a label for "West Tower."

There's a weird bug where almost all the allied units heal after turn 9, maybe because they are considered to have not moved. I think even the poisoned ones heal.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Yes, the allied leader tends to suicide himself by ordering his forces like lemmings into the moat and rushing the nearest assassin and getting himself poisoned.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
N/A

Edit: I just now took the advice of the post before mine and broke out through the north and won on the first attempt with no "undo" reloads. In retrospect, it makes sense that being surrounded stinks and you should break out, despite the advantage of the water defense. So, the scenario is not that difficult if you use the correct strategy. I just blazed out as fast as possible on the first turn. The assassins hardly had a chance to hit anyone. I sacrificed some units in rear guard action, while the rest split the enemy to the north. I wasn't planning to take out the assassin leader, but I saw an opportunity, so I did. Other assassins continued to poison some troops, but now with access to villages it wasn't a problem. My forces then wheeled around, left and right, engulfing the pursuing forces on three sides, turning the tables and nearly wiping out the visible forces by turn 9. From turn 9 on, it was just a careful mop up operation with the new recruits, slowly rolling East to West towards the "defensive ball" in the northwest fortress. Meanwhile, the allied leader ran back to the island fortress to recruit a kamikaze army all at once, and he did manage to take out the other fortress with almost no help.

Thrash
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 3 - Ka'lian under Attack

Post by Thrash » June 27th, 2010, 4:20 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

1.8.1, medium.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

7

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear. It was interesting in the change of control from Galtrid to Kalenz.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Clear and interesting.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Leaving Galtrid in good enough shape that he didn't need constant baby-sitting during the second part of the scenario. Even in good shape he would occasionally do dumb things like go run into the water to attack some unit in the castle and get himself killed.

There are some units (Grunts, Goblin Riders) that do enough damage at night that if they hit all 3 or 4 times, they cut through any first-level elf. If that happens twice in a turn, my line would pretty much collapse and it would be hard to recover.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

8

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

If Galtrid could be a little smarter and protect himself, or at least not get himself killed.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

Galtrid getting himself killed.

A couple times I had two Goblin riders at night get lucky in the same turn and hit all four times killing the full strength unit they were attacking. That opened a hole in my line and allowed other units to flood in, leading to the death of some key unit.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?

Do not know WML.

Lost
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 3 - Ka'lian under Attack

Post by Lost » July 2nd, 2010, 9:45 am

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

1.8.2; hardest

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

6 (compared to the first 2 levels it was a piece of cake :lol2: )

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

as someone else already pointed out, what is it worth to kill that orcish assasin? (Whom you will kill anyway since he just sits between the orc leader you have to defeat later on and your base)

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

they were fine. Still i was angry when the AI took over my beloved fortress and its defender

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

First of all, noticing that poison was my worst enemy at defending the castle. After a restart, i recruited shamans only for the first 6-7 turns. Therefore all my units were poisoned but didn't lose any hp in the process. With huge armies north and south there was no chance to take any villages (well at turn 9 i already had wiped out most orcs in the north and all orcs in the south).

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

7. Losing control over my fortress was indeed a pain since i just managed to level 2 shamans, 1 fighter and 1 scout without reloading or anything. Later on i had to reload several times as 2 orcs with each 3/3 hits could kill anything at night (and of course killed kalenz and the other guy that had to survive), even when my units had 70% defense. Lost another leveled scout and a ranger (who served great in the previous level vs the orcs). Ended the scenario with 2 elvish captains (1 of them Kalenz), 3 elvish marksmen, 2 elvish sharpshooter (results in a total of 5 of them... did get only 1 strong archer who didn't level up but has 42/44 xp), 1 druid and 2 elvish heroes. I hope this is enough (especially the lack of sorcerer/druids makes me worry. Most of the campaigns so far all went down the undead-route and if you don't have a lot of anti-undead units by then you are screwed. I fear the same may happen in this campaign. But since it was all about orcs so far i sort of gambled and got more archer this time). I finished at turn 27 with 200 gold left so i should be fine gold-wise. If i hadn't have that much archer-heavy units this level would have been way harder. This way i could shoot the melee orcs with my archer without having to fear much (since i was in forest) and the marksmen ability killed assasins/orc crossbows really easy even on retaliation.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

I think this level is great (i love especially the huge forests). Still anything that would prevent me from losing all the hard work i did in defending the fortress (and leveling the shamans/fighter/scout on the way) would make me feel more rewarded. Also the orc slayer (Urudin) was really weird. He was just like all the other slayer the orc then recruited, he wasn't special in any way and he lacked the great humor the sea goblin in the HttT was created with. Just 2 phrases in the beginning, being a side quest and a line when he's dead was not satisfying at all. Especially since he was just one slayer among half a dozent others.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

Orcs slaying me at night. They just kill my units way too fast if they get lucky. So i reloaded once each night and then carefully retreated, letting my ally take the pain for me. Also my first try to defend the fortress was devastating bad. I got all units poisoned and had no healing whatsoever. I ended up losing nearly all my units before i gave up in turn 6 and restarted the scenario.
A hint in the beginning (like "if they are going to poison us, we should either get a lot of shamans out quickly or try to secure some villages") would be very helpful i think.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?

i don't know even a bit of the WML

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Maiklas3000
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 3 - Ka'lian under Attack

Post by Maiklas3000 » July 2nd, 2010, 2:58 pm

Lost wrote:(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

1.8.2; hardest

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

6 (compared to the first 2 levels it was a piece of cake :lol2: )
In the first few turns, did you break out or make a stand in the fortress? If you made a stand, then how did you find this a piece of cake?!
Lost wrote: (3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
as someone else already pointed out, what is it worth to kill that orcish assasin? (Whom you will kill anyway since he just sits between the orc leader you have to defeat later on and your base)
My impression is that if you kill the orc assassin early on, then the rest of the orcs are cowered into a defensive ball formation, which is vaguely hinted at by the dialog when this happens. If you don't kill him early on, there is still some chance of the defensive ball, but maybe only 20% (guessing by experience.)
Lost wrote: Ended the scenario with 2 elvish captains (1 of them Kalenz), 3 elvish marksmen, 2 elvish sharpshooter (results in a total of 5 of them... did get only 1 strong archer who didn't level up but has 42/44 xp), 1 druid and 2 elvish heroes. I hope this is enough (especially the lack of sorcerer/druids makes me worry. Most of the campaigns so far all went down the undead-route and if you don't have a lot of anti-undead units by then you are screwed. I fear the same may happen in this campaign. But since it was all about orcs so far i sort of gambled and got more archer this time).
You don't have to worry about undead, at least for the next few scenarios (I don't know about after that.) There are more trolls ahead, though, so sorcerers, enchantresses and (if you can get them) sylphs are good to have. I also like to have a ton of shydes, fly them around in pairs, and put them on the front line when appropriate, especially for slowing trolls or taking out assassins. There are... other things... ahead, but I'll leave that to you to find out.
Lost wrote: A hint in the beginning (like "if they are going to poison us, we should either get a lot of shamans out quickly or try to secure some villages") would be very helpful i think.
Yes, I want hints throughout this campaign. The hints could be vague, but they should be there. I don't want to have to read the Internet to be able to beat a scenario in one attempt.

Lost
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 3 - Ka'lian under Attack

Post by Lost » July 3rd, 2010, 4:06 pm

In the first few turns, did you break out or make a stand in the fortress? If you made a stand, then how did you find this a piece of cake?!
as i wrote below, i recruited only shamans for the first 5-7 turns. In pairs, none of my units lost hp due to poison.
I tried to break out through the north but only with about 3-4 units, most of the units you start with remained where they started to defend the corners of the caste, each of them having at least one shaman standing by. This results in all attackers standing in the water and being easy prey.
My 3-4 units in the north had also a good chance due to villages/forest (and 2 of them leveled up, i think it was because a lvl 2 goblin rider suicided on a lucky fighter at day and both my units were intelligent, so with another kill both were about leveled up)

since the enemy had such a bad defense in water it was really easy to just sit and smash them, letting my shamans get in the final blow (so 2 of them leveled when i was at turn 9)

not losing any hp to poison was really the key here for me to be able to hold the fortress. If i would have allowed any attacker to get into the fortress it would have been over for me since you hardly remove some 60% grunts and 70% assasins with your poisoned retreating army.

Thrash
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 3 - Ka'lian under Attack

Post by Thrash » July 3rd, 2010, 9:49 pm

Lost wrote:
In the first few turns, did you break out or make a stand in the fortress? If you made a stand, then how did you find this a piece of cake?!
as i wrote below, i recruited only shamans for the first 5-7 turns. In pairs, none of my units lost hp due to poison.
I'll admit it here - I'm an idiot.

I was wondering how you did all this recruiting when you only get 100 gold. I went back and looked at my replay to double check that amount and just noticed Kal'lian controlled all the villages - I assumed the orcs did and never noticed as I was playing I was piling up gold.

Guess I did pretty good considering I didn't recruit (yeah, that's the best spin I can put on it).

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Maiklas3000
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 3 - Ka'lian under Attack

Post by Maiklas3000 » July 4th, 2010, 7:00 am

Thrash wrote:I'll admit it here - I'm an idiot.

I was wondering how you did all this recruiting when you only get 100 gold. I went back and looked at my replay to double check that amount and just noticed Kal'lian controlled all the villages - I assumed the orcs did and never noticed as I was playing I was piling up gold.

Guess I did pretty good considering I didn't recruit (yeah, that's the best spin I can put on it).
I still don't understand how "Lost" won while making a stand in the fortress for most of the first 9 turns. Like "Lost," I recruited max shamen every turn, until several turns in when I switched to fighters/archers. The first turn, you are basically guaranteed to have a couple guys poisoned without shamen backup, even if you do lots of clever repositioning. After that, you can maybe avoid losing HP's to poison, but your guys can't gain HP's either and so some start dying. Any assassins that you fail to kill slink off for healing and come back to keep the pressure on. On turn 7 or so, I would often break out of the south and send my guys off to rehab centers in villages just prior to losing control of them in turn 9. "Lost" said he broke out of the north later on, and I won when I broke out of the north immediately, so maybe breaking out of the north is the key.

dsa
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 3 - Ka'lian under Attack

Post by dsa » August 17th, 2010, 2:17 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Medium, 1.8.3

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
5 for the first part, 2 for the second.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear, but the bonus objective seems to offer no benefit. In my first attempt, when I killed the assasin leader, I saw after the arrival of Kalenz, that the northern orc has already recruited a lot of units around him. When I didn't kill the assasin leader during my second attempt, the orc did not recruit units up to this point, which most likely made it easier. Thus I think the bonus is actually a drawback.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
It was okay.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Finding out that shamans can stop poison and I can use more than two tiles for recruiting. :-) At first I really didn't know that shamans are able to stop poison, until I read it somewhere randomly and for some reason I thought that recruiting is only possible in wooden castle tiles. After I "solved" both problems, defending the castle wasn't that difficult.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8, I like the two different parts, although the second is too easy.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Maybe I am the only one, who would have needed it, but a hint that shamans can't heal, but stop poison would be nice. Because without shamans defending the castle against that many assasins is quite difficult.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
One restart because of my errors.

Schierke
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Location: Colombia.

Re: Scenario Review: LoW 3 - Ka'lian under Attack

Post by Schierke » August 17th, 2010, 3:33 pm

dsa wrote:(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Maybe I am the only one, who would have needed it, but a hint that shamans can't heal, but stop poison would be nice. Because without shamans defending the castle against that many assasins is quite difficult.
What?

Shamans have heal +4 but no cure, meaning they don't cure poison but can reduce it's damage per turn to 4.

Maybe you're confusing shamans ( http://units.wesnoth.org/1.8/C/Elvish%20Shaman.html ) with druids ( http://units.wesnoth.org/1.8/C/Elvish%20Druid.html )?

Thrash
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 3 - Ka'lian under Attack

Post by Thrash » August 17th, 2010, 3:45 pm

Shamans will stop poison from causing damage but can't cure it.

See Heals +4:
Heals +4
Allows the unit to heal adjacent friendly units at the beginning of each turn. A unit cared for by this healer may heal up to 4 HP per turn, or stop poison from taking effect for that turn. A poisoned unit cannot be cured of its poison by a healer, and must seek the care of a village or a unit that can cure.

numerobis
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Re: V1.7/1.8 - Scenario Review: LoW 3 - Ka'lian under Attack

Post by numerobis » October 8th, 2010, 4:22 am

I strongly dislike this scenario on Hard because there's only one strategy that seems to consistently work: break out North and hide in the keep for Kalenz (while being a bit lucky). Most other attempts I've made result in Galtrid committing suicide within three turns of Kalenz arriving -- long before the new army could possibly help. If the user got to control both elvish sides it would be a lot more fun.

fabi
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Re: V1.7/1.8 - Scenario Review: LoW 3 - Ka'lian under Attack

Post by fabi » October 8th, 2010, 12:52 pm

numerobis wrote:I strongly dislike this scenario on Hard because there's only one strategy that seems to consistently work: break out North and hide in the keep for Kalenz (while being a bit lucky). Most other attempts I've made result in Galtrid committing suicide within three turns of Kalenz arriving -- long before the new army could possibly help. If the user got to control both elvish sides it would be a lot more fun.
Remember that you can control where Galtrid is heading to after Kalenz arrived via the right click menu.

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