Scenario Review: (UTBS) 2. Across the Harsh Sands

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Molean
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Re: Scenario Review: (UTBS) 2. Across the Harsh Sands

Post by Molean » April 28th, 2010, 10:00 pm

I think this idea, population limit would be perfect for the whole UTBS campaign, don't you think so? Might that be used?

I like them being lawful, it makes sense for them. They are good creatures of the desert, who appreciate the sun.

Why hurt them day and night? What is the reason/benefit of this? If you keep them lawful,(or perhaps twilight too, depending on how that works) it already hurts them enough being limited at night and facing ghosts. Anyway, they are use to the desert, so it shouldn't hurt them so much.

Do you plan to cause burning sun and freezing cold damage on all maps, or just this one?

What about the oasis's? Just a place to avoid damage during the day? Or might it provide temporary protection from the day like I described? If you do that night damage, would oasis help with that?

What about enemy units, and allowing them some way to avoid damage so that they aren't so very easy 1hp kills or killed off for us?

Having trouble finding the main thread for this campaign, would you please link me to it?

One issue present throughout the campaign is sight triggered events, it feels like the game is punishing us for scouting and causes some real playing trouble sometimes.

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Re: Scenario Review: (UTBS) 2. Across the Harsh Sands

Post by fabi » April 29th, 2010, 12:58 pm

Molean wrote:I think this idea, population limit would be perfect for the whole UTBS campaign, don't you think so? Might that be used?
Without extra graphical user interface this idea is very nontransparent to the player.
I have thought about changing the way recruitment works in the campaign but there is nothing definitely.
I like them being lawful, it makes sense for them. They are good creatures of the desert, who appreciate the sun.
I don't share that opinion. Why should neutral elves evolve into lawful creatures in a hostile environment?
Since UtBS has this wired time table with two days and a long night, the twilight times of day are not rare.
Why should they specialize on the days? It must be incredible hot at middays with 2 suns around.
Why hurt them day and night? What is the reason/benefit of this? If you keep them lawful,(or perhaps twilight too, depending on how that works) it already hurts them enough being limited at night and facing ghosts. Anyway, they are use to the desert, so it shouldn't hurt them so much.
The desert elves will get increased resistances against cold and hot regarding their specialization to the desert.
Do you plan to cause burning sun and freezing cold damage on all maps, or just this one?
I plan to cause that on all maps where it makes sense.
What about the oasis's? Just a place to avoid damage during the day? Or might it provide temporary protection from the day like I described? If you do that night damage, would oasis help with that?
Oases will avoid the damage at day but not the one at night.
You can also avoid the day damage by being in any terrain that can spend some shadow.
During the night, damage is prevented inside buildings or caves.
What about enemy units, and allowing them some way to avoid damage so that they aren't so very easy 1hp kills or killed off for us?
I haven't thought about that now, you are the first one who experienced the scenario to easy because of the issue.
Having trouble finding the main thread for this campaign, would you please link me to it?
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4439
One issue present throughout the campaign is sight triggered events, it feels like the game is punishing us for scouting and causes some real playing trouble sometimes.
Right, there is much to do on that field.

Molean
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Re: Scenario Review: (UTBS) 2. Across the Harsh Sands

Post by Molean » April 29th, 2010, 11:32 pm

Trying to decide whether or not to respond to some of the stuff that has to do with the UTBS campaign as a whole in that thread. It would be a pain to transfer what current conversation has already been said into that thread. I will carry over the subject of population counters in that thread, but discuss the rest here. Please look over there to discuss that.
fabi wrote:I don't share that opinion. Why should neutral elves evolve into lawful creatures in a hostile environment?
They have a different culture then typical elves, so they may be more lawful in a social sense. They have a god of light even. They also are familiar with the desert and its heat and would operate better in the warmth of the day. Maybe not desert warmth, but I imagine non-desert locations are going to be alot cooler then they are use to. I would also point out that this would make them better in the caves, which doesn't really make sense for them.

Its not any hostile environment, and the question should be turned around to, why shouldn't they potentially evolve into lawful creatures? You have something against evolution of physiology and culture?

I would also point out that the leader has a upgrade that gives him bonus resistance during the day. So it seems the main campaign designer at the time thought it was a good idea for them to be lawful day creatures.
fabi wrote:Since UtBS has this wired time table with two days and a long night, the twilight times of day are not rare.
But they are not nearly as common as turns of night or turns of day. Which brings up a issue I have had with this campaign, figuring out when a day or night will be long or short, its a pain in the ass. I wish there was a display telling you when the next day or night will be long or short. I can't remember, does the length of 'twilight times' vary too?

Yes I know it says "long/short night/day" but I need to know whether the upcoming day/night will be long/short before it starts sometimes.
fabi wrote:plan to cause that on all maps where it makes sense.
What maps would those be? There is a surprising lack of desert maps. Only the first two. Which makes the leaders desert survival upgrade, pretty worthless.
fabi wrote:Oases will avoid the damage at day but not the one at night.
Will you consider making the effects of the oases travel with you for a time like I suggested? So that by filling up with water at the oasis, you are at least partially protected, till your troops run out and need to fill up at the next oasis? That way the oasis will matter more.

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Re: Scenario Review: (UTBS) 2. Across the Harsh Sands

Post by shadowblack » August 24th, 2010, 8:27 pm

1) What version and difficulty level did you play the scenario on? Please do not submit feedback from pre 1.4.
1.8.4, Desert Sentinel (Challenging)

2) Do you think the difficulty is adequate to the level? If not describe the issue that made the scenario to easy/hard.
Yes, difficulty is adequate.

3) Was there any event that caused you to almost instantly loose, or made the scenario unplayable without reload?
No, nothing (fortunately).

4) Do you like the storyline and the dialogues? If not what part/character lags behind or what would you like changed?
Very good.

5) Do you think the scenario was fun? Please write down some thoughts about gameplay, mood etc.
The whole “thirst” mechanic was new and refreshing. It made a scenario that would have been a dull and boring “reach the target and kill all enemies you encounter” a lot more interesting and enjoyable. Planning my moves became a bit trickier, but I enjoyed the added challenge.

A lot of nasty surprises here. The scorpions were especially bad because after they poisoned my druid I had no way to heal her and had to take special care to guard her (at least until one of my shamans advanced to Druid, but that happened only after I reached the undead). The title of most annoying surprise goes without doubt to the oasis that turns out to be a mirage. Not all surprises were of the unpleasant variety, though. For starters, thanks to my Scout’s impressive scouting radius he managed to see the second oasis just as he encountered the Ogres. As a result the bandit at the oasis was killed by the ogres, so I didn’t have to deal with him too (judging by the experience of enemies he got killed by a Young Ogre). I also liked how those annoying ghosts just vanished after I killed a few of them. Then there are the things I find at some locations: the ring that prevents thirst and the dust devil. Both were nice, and so was the castle where I could recruit. Too bad I hadn’t known about it ahead of time, though I doubt my initial recruits would have been any different.

I’m not sure if I should consider myself lucky or unlucky, but I never saw the Wraith in the castle. I didn’t have to waste my time fighting him, but I also missed on the experience and gold I would have received. I hope I don’t regret it…


6) Do you think the scenario's WML is clear and commented well enough? If not which part would you like to see improved?
Seems very well documented. But hard to tell for sure since it’s so long.
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Bob_The_Mighty
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Re: Scenario Review: (UTBS) 2. Across the Harsh Sands

Post by Bob_The_Mighty » October 16th, 2010, 10:10 pm

Just some small problems I noticed playing this scenario on Wesnoth 1.8.4.

1. I could see the black hand whilst I was fighting the ogres, then I moved forward and got the dialogue introducing them. The problem was, they were all turned to 'thirsty' - even though it was night and they were on an oasis.

2. I got the same introduction dialogue again, when one of the trappers moved to attack me.

3. The Outlaw signpost only appeared under me when i moved out north of the ogre castle. Shouldn't it have been there to start with?
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Desert_Shyde
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Re: Scenario Review: (UTBS) 2. Across the Harsh Sands

Post by Desert_Shyde » January 22nd, 2011, 7:50 pm

I played the "Desert Sentinel" level on version 1.9.3. The bandit "Thorn" did not recruit.
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GagarinGambit
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Re: Scenario Review: (UTBS) 2. Across the Harsh Sands

Post by GagarinGambit » March 16th, 2011, 2:37 am

1) What version and difficulty level did you play the scenario on? Please do not submit feedback from pre 1.4.
Most difficult, 1.8.4

2) Do you think the difficulty is adequate to the level? If not describe the issue that made the scenario to easy/hard.
It's challenging, which is just right. Let's elaborate a little: it's my favourite level of difficulty. It's so hard that you must play to the best of your ability and any mistake can be costly; but if you do play as best as you can, you have no trouble winning.

3) Was there any event that caused you to almost instantly loose, or made the scenario unplayable without reload?
I found out that I shouldn't have my scout moving ahead of the rest of my group, because he triggered some events that would be better delayed. The worst part was when both sets of undead armies appeared almost simultaneously. Regardless, it wasn't anything I couldn't handle; on the contrary, it increased the fun.

4) Do you like the storyline and the dialogues? If not what part/character lags behind or what would you like changed?
Again, the dialogue is very good, and is by far superior to any other Wesnoth campaign (with the possible exception of DiD). The best thing about it is how it's incorporated in the gameplay. BTW, note that I could see the "refreshed" text lingering above my troops during the final dialogue. Perhaps we need a small delay?

5) Do you think the scenario was fun? Please write down some thoughts about gameplay, mood etc.
It was even better than the previous. This scenario is full of surprises and twists. When I was nearly done with it, I had a look at the map and remembered all the challenges that I went through, and I realised the depth and the variety of this scenario. It's perhaps the best Wesnoth scenario I've played so far - and I've played nearly half of the available campaigns. My only complain is that there is no art for the modified desert elf units; I'd suggest using the mainline art (even though it would look out of place), at least as a temporary measure. Considering how often your non leader units speak, that's important.

6) Do you think the scenario's WML is clear and commented well enough? If not which part would you like to see improved?
I had a look at it, and I realised there are a few events I missed. So there were even more surprises! Oh, I also see it's well commented, that's why I know exactly what I missed.
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slyeyes
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Re: Scenario Review: (UTBS) 2. Across the Harsh Sands

Post by slyeyes » March 22nd, 2011, 5:25 am

I saw Thorn (bandit leader) having 43 HP out of 42 during day, but i happened to lose the screenshot. Version 1.8.5

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Re: Scenario Review: (UTBS) 2. Across the Harsh Sands

Post by TheCripple » March 24th, 2011, 6:21 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
1.9.4 Easy
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
2. The dehydration mechanic was a complicating element (and one I'd have liked to see more of), but the elves significantly outmaneuvered just about every other enemy, with the exception of the extremely easy to kill undead.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Its very clear.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario? '
This is a relatively quiet scenario, and for the most part the dialog just added to atmosphere without having any real significance.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
There weren't any.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
4, though this is colored by it coming right after the very fun first scenario.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
The oasis are a bit infrequent, increasing their commonality while tuning AI to prefer hitting healers would have added to their use, as is I used shamans and the occasional druid entirely to deal with dehydration, with the exception of base capturing.
(8) How much gold did you have at the start of the scenario?
Mid 200s somewhere.

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Pewskeepski
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Re: Scenario Review: (UTBS) 2. Across the Harsh Sands

Post by Pewskeepski » March 28th, 2011, 7:13 pm

(1) Difficulty, version? Challenging, 1.9.4 (347 gold)
(2) How difficult? (1-10) 8
(3) How clear? Very clear
(4) Dialog? Excellent (I'm hoping the Scepter of Fire is only mentioned because it'll ruin the story in my next campaign otherwise)
(5) Challenges? Dehydration and ghosts
(6) How fun? (1-10) 9
(7) Changes? None
(8) Reloads or restarts? Yes, two of them due to Nyms death (gotta get better at protecting her :P)
(9) WML? Well commented
(10) Replay? Attached
(11) Map? Great
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JoanRC
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Re: Scenario Review: (UTBS) 2. Across the Harsh Sands

Post by JoanRC » April 8th, 2011, 5:55 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Easy, 1.8.5, Linux (Pardus 2011).

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8 I'm new to this type of game, usually preferring the point and click adventure games such as Myst. Wesnoth is my first game of this type. I've played all the beginner's campaigns on Easy and some on Normal.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
8

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
My first engagement with an enemy was harrowing because I had recruited all level 1s to save cash, since there would be no village capturing. For this reason, I snuck around the ogres and didn't fight them at all. After Elyssa joined us and I got a few units levelled up, I was on more solid ground.


(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Can't think of any.

(8) How much gold did you have at the start of the scenario?
309

After reading the walkthrough, I discovered that the bandit leader was supposed to have some holy water for me. However, there was none. I reloaded the turn in which I killed him and double checked. There is no dialogue with him bargaining for his life, and no holy water. Is it not available on the Easy level?

I also didn't get the traveler's ring. This may be due to my re-loading the scenario after my scout got killed by the scorpions. I had sent him out alone to scout and he got attacked by the scorpions with no support nearby. So, I restarted the scenario, partly because I had decided to recruit a different mix of units. After that, I never saw the scorpions again and never got the ring. I see in the feedback thread that it isn't all that usefull, but don't see where you say you've taken it out.

podbelski
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Re: Scenario Review: (UTBS) 2. Across the Harsh Sands

Post by podbelski » July 11th, 2011, 11:26 am

1) What version and difficulty level did you play the scenario on?
1.9.6, top difficulty, no reloads

2) Do you think the difficulty is adequate to the level?
6 out of 10, difficult but not really tough, I like it as is. I slowed down a couple of times, other than that moved pretty fast, but finished the scenario in turn 56 out of 59. Glad I decided to mostly pass the ogres, otherwise I could have ran out of time.

Haven't lost any units, but was very close a couple of times after making a marginal move and was unlucky on top of that.

5) Do you think the scenario was fun?
10/10, everything is cool and challenging just enough.

I used a "hedgehog" formation from the walkthrough, worked great.

One awkward thing : I reached the castle at <34,25>, killed all the undead and their leader, and only then triggered the Elyssa event. It looked strange, I've just killed an undead horde, and suddenly another one and a mage appears out of nowhere at the same place. If I stand in the castle they appear right between my troops. I guess the event is better be moved to the South-West a bit, so it's guaranteed to be triggered before a player reaches the castle. The drawback is undead will be forced to fight in sands, which might be easier for the player.

Replay is attached, but strangely it is broken once I reach ogres (out of synch error). If it's b/c of some campaign flaw, might be helpful in fixing it.
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Maiklas3000
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Re: Scenario Review: (UTBS) 2. Across the Harsh Sands

Post by Maiklas3000 » July 20th, 2011, 12:43 pm

1) Version and difficulty? 1.9.7, nightmare
2) Sufficiently difficulty? Yes, just about right, maybe a tad easy.
3) Losing events? I think I restarted from start once.
4) Storyline and dialog? Very good. I did not encounter the scorpions, FWIW.
5) Fun, game play, mood? Pretty good. It seems a bit too much like hitting a hex and triggering events, rather than exploring a real landscape.

There is no incentive to go to the oases if you have adequate healing. Maybe put a village at each one for a little gold?

I liked the loyal elemental surprise, and he's a fun and useful unit.

The timing of the thirst is confusing. You can go out at dusk and not get thirsty, whereas if you're caught out at the end of night, then you get thirsty when it turns to dawn.

Also, I was confused when I went to an oasis and there were no outlaws there, then I went away and they popped up there. By then I was already fighting ogres (as well as ghosts), so they could have sandwiched my forces, except that the outlaws were too slow and thirsted themselves to death.

Understandably, the AI does not deal well with thirst. Maybe the outlaws that pop up at the oases should be on guard duty and not stray away unless they can attack on the same turn.

The AI also does not deal well with the ogres and outlaws when they face ghosts, as they attack the ghosts and leave the elves alone. Maybe make them strongly prefer to attack the elves. After all, they live in the desert, and they know that these ghosts are tough to kill and will disappear on their own at dawn.

Do the oases heal wounds? I assume so, but one of my wounded units jumped in the water at the ogre castle, and I don't think it helped, so is the water at the oases magical?

6) WML? Well commented.
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Jabie
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Re: Scenario Review: (UTBS) 2. Across the Harsh Sands

Post by Jabie » April 1st, 2012, 10:30 am

I completely missed the Dust Devil because I scouted ahead, spotted the ogres and skirted around them. This caused me to run into Elyssa and get into a fight with the undead earlier than expected.

The walkthrough mentions Holy Water for defeating the final boss, but I never received any. Given how hard the rest of the campaign is, I would have appreciated the boost.

donralz
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Re: Scenario Review: (UTBS) 2. Across the Harsh Sands

Post by donralz » May 28th, 2012, 3:09 pm

On version 1.8.6. Didn't get the dust devil like the previous guy, skipped the oasis because I had enough healers. Is he with going back for?

Also didn't get any holy water... Is that a campaign change for this version?

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