Wesnoth 1.13.6

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Re: Wesnoth 1.13.6

Postby The_Gnat » February 19th, 2017, 11:14 pm

beetlenaut wrote:
The_Gnat wrote:consider changing the xp of level 2 units that have reached maximum level.
We already did that, and not that long ago either. AMLAs are supposed to be difficult to reach, and originally, they were all set at 150. The reason they were eventually changed to the level x 50 was more to make the XP bars a reasonable length than to change the balance. They are still supposed to be more difficult to reach than an ordinary level up.


Thank you for explaining, but I am still wondering why a unit (such as the ogre) would have 100xp while a similar unit such as the orcish grunt would have only 60xp to advance to the next level.

The main reason I ask is because in my view AMLA is worse than an actual advancement and therefore should be easier to achieve.

Again thank you for taking the time to explain!
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Re: Wesnoth 1.13.6

Postby beetlenaut » February 19th, 2017, 11:50 pm

The_Gnat wrote:n my view AMLA is worse than an actual advancement
Of course an AMLA is worse. That's by design. Wesnoth was intended to be a battle simulator where you have a large number of troops, and your strategy and position determine the winner. It has a few RPG elements, but it's not intended to be an RPG--especially not one with very powerful or resilient units. The difficult-to-achieve AMLAs are part of that overall plan for the game. In fact, the original AMLA was only a full heal. The few hitpoints were added later, and only after a lot of argument. (IIRC, the full heal was removed at the same time to keep the AMLAs from being overpowered, and only reinstated after even more argument.)

I was one of the main people involved in lowering the AMLA requirements for level-1 and level-2 units, but even I am against lowering them any more. As I said before, it had more to do with keeping the XP bars from being four or five times longer than the HP bars on units like wolves and goblins.
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Re: Wesnoth 1.13.6

Postby The_Gnat » February 20th, 2017, 2:08 am

:P sorry to be still discussing this, ì understand what your saying, but I feel that my point has been missed ;)

Units without a advancement are disadvantaged

Units without an advancement are further disadvantaged because it is harder for them to heal full then normal lvl 2 units (which is an important tactical ability)

I believe the combination of these two disadvantages is too great for some units (which have been mentioned previously)

Now at this point all the devs and moderators are reading this post considering banning me from the forum for my annoyingness and asking the same question so repeatedly :whistle: i appreciate the attempts to explain this to me, so I do apologize for my thick-headedness

That said... would someone explain why they decided to so disadvantaged these units?

EDIT: Btw I am only asking about lvl 2 units because lvl 3 units very rarely have advancements so all are equal compared to each other.
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Re: Wesnoth 1.13.6

Postby Tad_Carlucci » February 20th, 2017, 3:47 am

To me it fells more like you're refining and explaining yourself. I don't see how that could be an issue.

I would, however, suggest that the discussion might be better taken to its own tread in the Development area (perhaps under Ideas) since it seems to be more generic than a specific issue with 1.13.6
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Re: Wesnoth 1.13.6

Postby beetlenaut » February 20th, 2017, 7:13 am

I don't understand how, "It's a disadvantage," can be used as an argument. There are advantages and disadvantages that apply to every unit, and that's just part of the strategy. If you recruit a Saurian augur or Orcish assassin, you have to do so with the knowledge that it will have this disadvantage. Likewise if you choose a deathblade over a revenant or something like that.
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Re: Wesnoth 1.13.6

Postby The_Gnat » February 20th, 2017, 11:20 pm

True. After considering this more and testing some thinga here is my assessment:

All the lvl 2 units without a advancement are like that because of their uniqueness.

Lancer - excessively powerful unit to destroy enemy healers and ranged units, and is a scout
Slayer - the best poison unit in the game (with marksman) high defense and is fast
Ogre - ogres are dumb it should be hard for them to advanceme (also has high hp)
Saurian auger & soothsayer - the only healing units for the drakes also a rare unit with cold
Tabib - melee healer, that deserves more experience because of it uniqueness
Berserker - berserk
Gryphon master - fast scout high melee good defense
Troll rocklobber - unique powerful range combined with solid melee and high hp
Deathblade - powerful melee increased movement
Dread bat - fast, good melee, drains

All these units are correctly balanced by high xp.

Overall the Javelineer is the only unit which really needs changing. It is a specialist compared to the swordsman but not when considering all the other units lvl 2 which are maximum level. It is very similar to the bowman but worse because of hp amd xp. Because of this I think either its xp should be reduced or some other change should be made (perhaps firststrike ranged).
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Re: Wesnoth 1.13.6

Postby Samonella » February 21st, 2017, 5:21 pm

The_Gnat wrote:Overall the Javelineer is the only unit which really needs changing. It is a specialist compared to the swordsman but not when considering all the other units lvl 2 which are maximum level. It is very similar to the bowman but worse because of hp amd xp. Because of this I think either its xp should be reduced or some other change should be made (perhaps firststrike ranged).

:hmm: I always thought of the Javelineer as a really specialized defensive unit; he's kind of hard to attack, since he has decently strong attacks for both melee and ranged, as well as first-strike on melee. Though I agree he's not as useful/specialized as other max-level lvl 2's like the Pillager or Deathblade.

On a different note, I've found some bugs in the 1.13.6 map editor:
  1. When using my mouse scroll-wheel on the terrain-selection pallete, the map also scrolls, which is annoying. (I had to double-check, but 1.12 did not do that)
  2. Some really weird behavior in the map-loading gui (which is generally much better than the old one, btw :D ). So I used it to navigate into my campaign, which all worked fine. I open the gui again to open a different map, but this time (apparently because of the starting directory's long address?) the gui window isn't begin enough and uses a horizontal scroll bar. I can still get to all the options, but I have to scroll around to find them, even though there is plenty of extra space on the sides of the gui. I'm sure this description isn't completely clear, so there's a screen-shot below.
  3. Related to number 2, after using the ".." option to step out of one directory, all the files I mouse-over pop up on the left of the gui window. This didn't happen until I stepped out of a directory. Again, screen-shot below.

Screen-shots
weird-load-map-window.png

really-weird-load-map-window.png
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Re: Wesnoth 1.13.6

Postby Celtic_Minstrel » February 22nd, 2017, 5:02 am

I'm guessing your second issue is directly related to the presence of that long path in the dialog... I'd say it shouldn't put the full path, only the base filename. The path is implied to be the directory currently shown.

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  1. Yes, absolutely, don't show them for the player who issues them.
  2. They shouldn't be shown under any circumstance in single-player, but that should probably be taken care of by case #1.
  3. Why do you want to show them in replays?
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Re: Wesnoth 1.13.6

Postby UnwiseOwl » February 22nd, 2017, 12:58 pm

Showing them in replays is a nice feature. If I've used debug mode to cheat in an mp map or to somehow influence a scenario in an sp replay that I'm sharing (for example, as a "how to" replay), people ought to know.
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Re: Wesnoth 1.13.6

Postby Bob_The_Mighty » February 24th, 2017, 2:48 am

Samonella has mentioned the same issues with the map editor I flagged up here back in November (alongside some other points). Does anyone know if these are being addressed?

I've just discovered another bug. When you create an MP game and set a side to 'empty' in the drop down menu (instead of Network/Local/Computer Player) that side still gets an leader unit. It's an inactive leader that doesn't have a turn, but it's still on the map and can be attacked. Previously the side set to empty was blank with no units.
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Re: Wesnoth 1.13.6

Postby vultraz » February 24th, 2017, 8:33 am

Ah, unfortunately, many of those issues are ones we haven't gotten around to fixing yet. Sorry :(

EDIT: actually, these two have been fixed:
3. The freeze caused by selecting option/description on the add-ons list is pretty bad (I know it's known about, but that hasn't stopped me falling foul of it). Is this being addressed already?

5. The 'Load Map' menu in the map editor can't handle long file paths. It creates a horizontal scrollbar which means you have to scroll to the right to see the Open/Close buttons. It also creates a graphical glitch when you select a map (with a single click).


EDIT 2: as is this:
I've just discovered another bug. When you create an MP game and set a side to 'empty' in the drop down menu (instead of Network/Local/Computer Player) that side still gets an leader unit. It's an inactive leader that doesn't have a turn, but it's still on the map and can be attacked. Previously the side set to empty was blank with no units.


EDIT 3: and this:
6. Again in the map editor, there's a problem with scrolling using the mouse wheel. While the pointer is over the terrain options on the right-hand panel, scrolling results in both the terrain options AND the map itself scrolling up or down.
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Re: Wesnoth 1.13.6

Postby The_Gnat » March 3rd, 2017, 1:49 am

Hello again, :D This time i have a question relating to 1.13 (rather than arbitrary balance opinions) ;)

Here is a screenshot of the 1.13 campaign menu when i scroll down to the bottom (nothing irregular)

Spoiler:


After loading a multiplayer map when i returned to the campaign menu and scrolled to the bottom a new modification menu had appeared.

Spoiler:


I have two questions:

- Why does this menu not appear all the time? (i am leaning towards the assumption that this is a bug)

- Why does this menu exist at all? (these check boxes shown are all multiplayer modifications, most of which i believe would not work correctly if run in a campaign. In 1.13 are all multiplayer modifications going to be forced to be compatible with campaigns?)


EDIT: also it is great to hear so many major bugs are being fixed! I look forward to wesnoth 1.13.7 :Awesome:

EDIT: not related, but i was wondering if decent into darkness still can not be won? (if so is it possible to add a menu option after playing the last scenario that allows players to get the laurel in their campaign menu?)
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Re: Wesnoth 1.13.6

Postby gfgtdf » March 3rd, 2017, 2:08 am

The_Gnat wrote:
- Why does this menu not appear all the time? (i am leaning towards the assumption that this is a bug)

- Why does this menu exist at all? (these check boxes shown are all multiplayer modifications, most of which i believe would not work correctly if run in a campaign. In 1.13 are all multiplayer modifications going to be forced to be compatible with campaigns?)

modifications are now by default avaiable in both mp and sp. the reasons why you see those mp modifications iregulary is that those addons didnt adapt to 1.13 yet. Depending on whether those modifications also work in sp or not those authors should eigher add type=mp or move thosre modifications out of #ifdef MULTIPLAYER
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Re: Wesnoth 1.13.6

Postby The_Gnat » March 3rd, 2017, 3:31 am

@gfgtdf: Thank you! I have moved my modification out of #ifdef MULTIPLAYER and it works now in singleplayer also. That is very useful! :D
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Re: Wesnoth 1.13.6

Postby The_Gnat » March 3rd, 2017, 4:42 am

Hello once again! I have created a new mod (the HP mod) for 1.13. It uses a unit placed event to modify all units hitpoints. However, i have noticed that it does not modify the randomly placed units in the units in the scenario 'dark forecast'.

In the wiki it says this unit placed event should work for even lua generated units, so what do you think the problem is?

Thank you!
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