Game saves and settings for Windows

brasto · Post by **brasto** » February 6th, 2007, 7:06 am

This forum seems the best fit for this suggestion to the developers. Moderators, feel free to move this to a more appropriate forum if needed. While I prefer Linux, I have a Windows machine also, and I am very experienced with both OSes. Currently BfW saves games [edit: and game settings] in:

%programfiles%\Wesnoth\userdata

You should change this to:

%userprofile%\path\to\wesnoth

Here's why:

* I lock down access for all other computer users - as Windows users should. Nobody but me can save files in %programfiles%. I have to manually give each person wright rights to the BfW save dir.
* When I access my saved games, I don't want to see the games all other computer users have saved, just my games.
* Other people, when deleting saved games, can delete my save games.
* [edit to include this point for settings] When one user changes a setting that I don't want, I have to change it back to the way I like it. We end up with a settings tug-of-war.

The list goes on, but that's a good starting point.

[edited title to include settings]

Website · Post by **Sapient** » February 6th, 2007, 1:30 pm

There are two groups of Windows users:

1) Most Windows users who run with full priveliges enjoy the convenience of multiple installs with the non-conflicting userdata and being able to have this same userdata available to multiple logins.

2) Other Windows users (who are secretly Linux users) would prefer everything grouped in what they deem the "correct" way from a restrictive permissions viewpoint.

So, while someone may implement this change, personally I don't see it as a problem.

brasto · Post by **brasto** » February 7th, 2007, 7:40 am

Sapient wrote:There are two groups of Windows users:

1) Most Windows users who run with full priveliges enjoy the convenience of multiple installs with the non-conflicting userdata and being able to have this same userdata available to multiple logins.

2) Other Windows users (who are secretly Linux users) would prefer everything grouped in what they deem the "correct" way from a restrictive permissions viewpoint.

So, while someone may implement this change, personally I don't see it as a problem.

I respect your thoughts, and want to say Wesnoth is a remarkable product - something you should be proud to be part of developing. I hope I don't come across as overly argumentative, and hope you'll consider these additional things.

I felt this way when I was a Windows 95 techie and hadn't even used Linux yet. True, security is one reason for user profiles, and indeed that's what I focused on. However, I personally doubt that people want to share info across users. Otherwise AIM, MSN Messenger, Outlook, and most day-to-day, commonly used programs would use common settings for all users.

Are polls effective in this forum? If so, might a poll help determine what most people want? Of course it must be worded generically for both options, so perhaps we can agree on the wording before posting a poll.

Another reason to go to user-specific saves: both groups will likely be happy with them. The people who secure their windows install by restricting user rights will have users who can save their games by default, and the other users will still be able to save games. They won't see each other's saves, but that's no different than most the other games they play.

Back to security. As a fellow developer, if I must err, I choose to err on security's side.

Website · Post by **Sapient** » February 8th, 2007, 1:09 am

Most Windows users don't even *know* where their user profile information is stored. Since Wesnoth takes a hands on approach that encourages modding, it is convenient to have data and userdata right next to each other. That's where your analogy fails: when was the last time you had to open file explorer and make changes to the raw data in your AIM user profile information?

I don't put much faith in polls, either-- the people who would be most affected by the change probably don't read ever this Compiler forum. It would make it harder for them to post their savegame into the forum or bug reports.

Also, preventing your little sister from accidentally overwriting your save is very simple even if the folder is shared-- you can type your initials as a prefix to the name of the savefile.

If this change is implemented, I hope that the Windows packagers would also include a shortcut link in the wesnoth directory that points to the userdata directory, and vice-a-versa. Then again, specific packaging tasks like that are often forgotten when it comes release time.

brasto · Post by **brasto** » February 8th, 2007, 2:29 am

Sapient wrote:Most Windows users don't even *know* where their user profile information is stored. Since Wesnoth takes a hands on approach that encourages modding, it is convenient to have data and userdata right next to each other. That's where your analogy fails: when was the last time you had to open file explorer and make changes to the raw data in your AIM user profile information?

Good point Sapient, most Windows users don't know where user data gets stored. They just know their profile has their info. My points don't fail. I'm not saying users will go into their user profile to make changes. They will just save game the same way they always do, and the change would be transparent to them except they may notice it now only has their own save games.

Your AIM analogy has nothing to do with end users. True, I've never went into my AIM profile to make raw data changes, but neither will any of the other end users that use AIM. End users that save Wesnoth games will likewise probably not go to their user profile to make manual raw data changes.

Developers, on the other hand *should* know where the user profile is, and I agree, a shortcut to the %userprofile%\path\to\wesnoth from the program dir would prove handy for mod writers and other developers.

Website · Post by **Sapient** » February 8th, 2007, 2:46 am

There are plenty of current and future wesnoth modders who aren't very computer savvy; also, I think you missed this sentence:

Sapient wrote:It would make it harder for them to post their savegame into the forum or bug reports.

Post by VS » February 8th, 2007, 11:00 am

How about putting the folder with saves into "My documents"?

Post by **zookeeper** » February 8th, 2007, 11:29 am

I've never stopped believing that the ideal way would be to have an option in the installer. Whether to put userdata in the installation directory or in the user profiles (this being the default, with a note saying that if you don't know that you need to change it, don't).

Of course, doing that probably requires more work.

Post by **freim** » February 8th, 2007, 12:20 pm

Brasto, you are absolutely correct, but in the world of Windows it seems convenience (or a perceived convenience) more often than not trumps security.

Frobozz · Post by **Frobozz** » February 11th, 2007, 10:01 am

Why not simply generate shortcuts that point to the location of the save directory and to the location of the mods spot and put them in the same spot as the Wesnoth shortcut?

Post by **Viliam** » February 11th, 2007, 1:12 pm

I agree that the Wesnoth installation on Windows should follow the Windows rules -- which require installing to multiple directories. Without this, users can only use programs if they have Administrator (or Power User) rights.

When I look at my disk, these are application which follow the rules:

Azureus
C:\Program Files\Azureus
C:\Documents and Settings\Viliam\Application Data\Azureus

Enigma
C:\Program Files\Enigma
C:\Documents and Settings\Viliam\Application Data\Enigma

Firefox
C:\Program Files\Mozilla Firefox
C:\Documents and Settings\Viliam\Application Data\Mozilla\Firefox
C:\Documents and Settings\Viliam\Local Settings\Application Data\Mozilla\Firefox

foobar2000
C:\Program Files\foobar2000
C:\Documents and Settings\Viliam\Application Data\foobar2000

Gaim
C:\Program Files\Gaim
C:\Documents and Settings\Viliam\Application Data\.gaim

Inkscape
C:\Program Files\Inkscape
C:\Documents and Settings\Viliam\Application Data\Inkscape

OpenOffice.org
C:\Program Files\OpenOffice.org 2.0
C:\Documents and Settings\Viliam\Application Data\OpenOffice.org2

Opera
C:\Program Files\Opera
C:\Documents and Settings\Viliam\Application Data\Opera

Skype
C:\Program Files\Skype
C:\Documents and Settings\Viliam\Application Data\Skype

Thunderbird
C:\Program Files\Mozilla Thunderbird
C:\Documents and Settings\Viliam\Application Data\Thunderbird
C:\Documents and Settings\Viliam\Local Settings\Application Data\Thunderbird

TuxPaint
C:\Program Files\TuxPaint
C:\Documents and Settings\Viliam\Application Data\TuxPaint

The list is so long to show you that following the rules is not an exception; it's something that most decent applications do. And the applications which break the rules are usually the games.

I think Wesnoth should put "userdata" to a user-specific directory. Preferably into two directories: "userdata" for saved games and preferences, and "alluserdata" for downloaded content. This is the correct way. Putting a link to "saved games" directory in start menu should be enough help for n00bs.

The advantage of having everything in one directory, is that you can make a "portable Wesnoth", with a simple installation from ZIP file. Therefore it would be nice if Wesnoth would also support the "userdata" directory in the program directory, if it exists.

marauder68 · Post by **marauder68** » February 12th, 2007, 7:29 pm

I have to agree with the OP, but for a different reason. I am running on a laptop with limited hard drive space, so I keep all my personal and profile information on an external USB hard drive. I agree that most Windows users don't know/care where files are saved. I am also always experimenting with all kinds of software and I have experienced enough windows crashes to know to keep everything separate from the Windows drive so I don't have to worry too much when I format and re-install everything which I do approx every 6 months just out of habit. I think a default of keeping everything in the Program Files folder would be fine for most people, but there could be an option to specify a path for saves/configuration data. I am not a programmer so I have no idea how difficult that would be to implement, just saying it would be a nice option.

Website · Post by **Sapient** » February 13th, 2007, 1:51 am

marauder68 wrote:I have to agree with the OP, but for a different reason.

Who is OP?

The main problem I see with this proposal is that a Windows packager needs to provide quick and easy access to the editor-generated maps and saves-- possibly through something as simple as a couple of shortcuts in the start menu under Wesnoth. So until some Windows packager steps forward and volunteers to do that every time we release Wesnoth, this change would have limited benefit-- because some users would like the change, and others wouldn't.

BTW, it is already possible to specify the data directory when you run Wesnoth (in Windows this means that you would also therefore be specifying the userdata directory).

Code: Select all

wesnoth.exe [data-directory]

However, a second option to set userdata directory is a good idea. I don't think that feature has been added yet.

marauder68 · Post by **marauder68** » February 13th, 2007, 2:28 am

OP is original poster. My bad for assuming all forums use the same acromyms!

So for your solution, all I need to do is specify a directory in the shortcut? i.e. change the properties to ["c:\program files\wesnoth\wesnoth.exe" g:\data\games\wesnoth]?

borsook · Post by **borsook** » March 20th, 2007, 1:19 am

Viliam wrote: The list is so long to show you that following the rules is not an exception; it's something that most decent applications do. And the applications which break the rules are usually the games.

And there is a very good reason for this, many users (myself included) refuse to have any data from games on system partition, whereas "working" applications can be kept there. I hate games that try to split their data and throw some into user's directory, simply because games usually (wesnoth being an exception) take a lot of space which simply do not have on the system partition. Also changing this would make moving wesnoth between computers a bit more tiresome... so from my very personal perspective is very good as it is now.