Scenario Review: EI 18b - Weldyn Besieged

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Scenario Review: EI 18b - Weldyn Besieged

Post by Content Feedback » March 11th, 2008, 2:26 pm

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
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Lumaca
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Joined: October 5th, 2008, 11:18 pm

Re: Scenario Review: EI 18b - Weldyn Besieged

Post by Lumaca » October 19th, 2008, 9:37 pm

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Medium 1.4.5

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
1

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
1

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
1

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
None at all

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
4, the number of turns I actually used to finish...

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
It is ridiculously easy. When I first saw the opening dialogue, I thought I had to kill 'em one by one till I get the right one, but when I checked, the name of one of the Lichs clearly says Ravanal. My Grand Knight + Grand Marshall Leadership + Amulet dealt 59 damage to him, so...

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
No

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
-

Loci
Posts: 40
Joined: October 28th, 2008, 10:49 pm

Re: Scenario Review: EI 18b - Weldyn Besieged

Post by Loci » October 28th, 2008, 11:13 pm

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Medium 1.5.4


(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
1 - Finished on turn 3 without using my recalled troops.


(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Kill Mal-Ravanal--quite clear.


(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Good enough, I suppose.


(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
None.


(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
1 -- this is a very poor climactic battle to end the campaign.


(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Ways to improve this battle: hide the liches' names, start the battle at sundown (so the enemies' troops don't run *away* from battle) and move Mal-Ravanal to a better defended castle (or just remove the bridge directly to him) or randomize lich starting locations.

I implemented two of the above suggestions (randomized lich start locations and hidden lich names) and found this level to be suitably challenging (and epic). I would like to see my modifications added to the next release, but I'm unsure exactly how I should go about submitting them.


(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
No.


(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
Seems very straightforward...

AI
Developer
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Re: Scenario Review: EI 18b - Weldyn Besieged

Post by AI » October 29th, 2008, 1:55 pm

Submit a patch to http://patches.wesnoth.org.

Thrash
Posts: 190
Joined: June 25th, 2010, 1:54 pm

Re: Scenario Review: EI 18b - Weldyn Besieged

Post by Thrash » July 27th, 2010, 10:58 pm

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

1.8.3, Medium, 295 starting gold.

(Yes, I played both this and the Dual.)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

7, I tried many times with 200 gold, playing with 295 I was able to make it with some advice from the forum.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

It's not really clear why the enemy reaching your keep is death. Apparently Konrad is sitting helpless in the keep?

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Both clear and interesting.

I know it's in the objective, but some dialog calling it the enemy reaching your keep is death and explaining it would be good.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

The key seems to be in the first engagement making sure you hit first and hard, otherwise you get swamped and limited mobility kills you.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

8, a good challenge.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

No suggestions.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

So many I lost count :-) It's difficult to protect the principals.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?[/quote]

Good. The unusual parts are commented.

Replay (and my pleas for help) available in the forums.

podbelski
Posts: 151
Joined: June 7th, 2011, 8:35 pm

Re: Scenario Review: EI 18b - Weldyn Besieged

Post by podbelski » September 9th, 2011, 4:36 pm

I watched the replay, and can definitely point out that:

1) the map is too sketchy, looks like the developer was not in a mood to make everything realistic and shiny

2) in the replay, the player simply wins the battle being able to kill everyone. This contradicts to the whole campaign idea - the undead forces are too strong for the face-to-face confrontation. I can't quickly come up with the exact suggestions, the most obvious thing is the only way to win the map should be killing Mal-Ravaal while the battle goes on, and it should be clear the undead will eat you if you don't kill the right lich.

line
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Joined: January 11th, 2012, 9:21 pm

Re: Scenario Review: EI 18b - Weldyn Besieged

Post by line » January 24th, 2012, 8:26 pm

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
1.8.6, hard
322 starting gold.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
4. The undead hordes seem scary, but I simply defended the castle with a light mage in the centre and iron maulers around. You don't need to counterattack and the undead surrounding the castle will only dare to use range attacks. But the damage of bone shooters and wraiths is too few to make your defense stumble.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear but senseless.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
As said by podbelski: Our only chance is a lucky punch against the undead - that's why we wanted to trap Mal-Ravanal. So there was no sense in declining the duel and there can't be a sense in being able to beat this scenario.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
I lost three units, but I just played it once without reloading and wasn't too motivated to do it the best way. From the forum I knew it's an easy mission and I brought strong troops into battle.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
5. Nice killing at the second day.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
The undead should be much stronger. Maybe they should be given a higher income or villages close to their keep, so that they can recruit again, after you finished the first wave. As said by podbelski, it shouldn't be possible to kill one lich after the other. So maybe in round 10 Mal-Ravanal should reveal his identity himself (arrogantly expecting you to lose) and fighting your way through to him should be all that is possible.
That would fit well to Dacyn's description of him before: Too strong to be beaten, but arrogance being his weakness.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
None.
Attachments
IdF-Belagerung_von_Weldyn_Wiederholung_anzeigen.gz
(40.43 KiB) Downloaded 261 times
Last edited by line on July 23rd, 2012, 10:49 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Ninjuri
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Re: Scenario Review: EI 18b - Weldyn Besieged

Post by Ninjuri » May 16th, 2012, 2:25 am

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Easy 1.10.2
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
7
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
100%
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
I noticed that mal ravanal said the same cheesy "You dare challenge me? now you will die!" as the first lich that i encountered. Might vary the dialogue a bit between him and the other less important liches.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
All the ghosties, those are always my absolute least favorite enemy to face, i hate them with a passion.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Ease up on the ghosties...
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
One time Oweac was killed, but i loaded and made sure to move him to a village on the other side of the castle instead.
Fate is against me.

vicente
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Joined: November 21st, 2011, 9:40 pm
Location: Washington DC, USA

Re: Scenario Review: EI 18b - Weldyn Besieged

Post by vicente » May 30th, 2012, 1:20 am

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
1.10.3, hard, 310 gold

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
7. Lost only one iron mauler

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear enough.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
I would expect Mal-Revanal to have more speech when you reveal and kill him. His death is just too uneventful.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
No enemies should step on your keep (I cannot see any reason for it). The shadows have pretty good chance to break in at night. Even the hedgehog formation is not completely safe.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7. The first night is tough. But the undead army is eliminated on the second day.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
When you reveal Mal-Revalnal, he teleport to another keep, and recruit a few elite class of enemies. In the current scenario, he will get ~250 gold when you reveal him, but the new recruitment would not have any impact on the game, as you can kill him in the same turn.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
It would be very difficult if I did not save most of my veterans in "Evacuation".

In "Evacuation", I lost almost all units that are not suited for undead combat. But the undead-killer force only lost an iron mauler. The loss was recovered in "The Drowned Plains", as I leveled 5 ogres and 3 red mages (I only killed the dragon at turn 24). So in "Weldyn Under Attack", I was able to kill all enemies at turn 10 with a loss of my loyal paladin and some ogres (2 lichs rushed out from their keep and was killed even before spent all the money). In the final battle, I recalled 2 mages of light, 4 arch mages, 2 great mages, 6 iron maulers, one loyal guard (arcane enhanced) and one paladin (arcane enhanced). The undead army simply cannot match with them.

The screen shot for turn 6 is attached. One can certainly feel that "Weldyn besieged" is the proper description for the scenario.
Attachments
Screen shot 2012-05-29 at 8.28.02 PM.png

ElComandante
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Joined: October 28th, 2013, 6:09 pm

Re: Scenario Review: EI 18b - Weldyn Besieged

Post by ElComandante » November 3rd, 2013, 8:41 pm

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
1.11.6, normal, 359 gold.
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
10+. Changes in the 1.11.x branch made this scenario impossible to win as the enemy gets a full "refund" for every unit you kill meaning the enemy gets an unlimited supply of high-level units.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear enough.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
OK. Maybe add an explanation why having an enemy on the keep tile is a losing condition ("There was no time to evacuate the royal family. If the enemy gets into the castle, our future is doomed!").
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Fight an unlimited supply of units.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
0. If modified to actually be winnable, probably about 9.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Less ghost-type units.
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Many.
(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like
to be documented better?
Clear enough.

Loci
Posts: 40
Joined: October 28th, 2008, 10:49 pm

Re: Scenario Review: EI 18b - Weldyn Besieged

Post by Loci » November 9th, 2013, 6:25 am

ElComandante wrote:Changes in the 1.11.x branch made this scenario impossible to win as the enemy gets a full "refund" for every unit you kill meaning the enemy gets an unlimited supply of high-level units.
I'm the one who proposed these changes, and I'd like to take a few moments to explain my rationale.

The changes were intended to make the scenario (nearly) impossible to win by defeating all the enemies. In the storyline, there are "hordes" of undead marching on Weldyn, yet several players above mention wiping out the enemy forces by the second day. Obliterating the enemy in a day makes for a very poor climactic battle, and plays like any generic scenario in Battle for Wesnoth. In the revised scenario, the objective is to find and defeat Mal-Ravanal while Weldyn is besieged by an overwhelming enemy force. If you wait around for the enemies' troops to die off you'll be waiting a very long time (not technically "forever" since the enemies aren't refunded money paid in unit upkeep costs).

It's also worth noting that this is the "challenge" branch of the storyline--an unprepared commander without high-level recalls and a sizable warchest may indeed find the scenario impossible. The Duel is a much more forgiving final scenario (but some people just can't stand to take Dacyn's sanctimonious advice any longer).

ElComandante
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Joined: October 28th, 2013, 6:09 pm

Re: Scenario Review: EI 18b - Weldyn Besieged

Post by ElComandante » January 3rd, 2014, 6:39 pm

I'm the one who proposed these changes, and I'd like to take a few moments to explain my rationale.
It's been a while since I finished the campaign, so I don't exactly recall all the details anymore (replays are all more or less borked). I agree with you that the final battle should be climactic, should be difficult (especially since there is an easier alternative), and should give that "overwhelming" feel. However, difficult doesn't mean masochistically hard or impossible. The only reason I finished the campaign (playing again the entire campaign was out of question) was that in the umpteenth attempt Mal-Ravanal was luckily the third Lich (which is about the best I managed to do anyway).

I'm not saying the scenario needs to be revamped, just that with a little bit of tweaking (at least for non-nightmare difficulty) this scenario could (and should) be made more enjoyable.

Sandman25
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Joined: January 13th, 2014, 2:22 am

Re: Scenario Review: EI 18b - Weldyn Besieged

Post by Sandman25 » January 16th, 2014, 3:08 am

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Middle. 1.11.8

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
10

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Not too clear, perhaps it is related to my bad English. I killed a leader on the south on turn 2 and retreated behind a river to have easier time. I destroyed most units and moved back to center but lost when "Royal family was killed" by alone Renegade on turn 17 while having Paladin in range who could easily defend the family. I simply didn't realize I cannot allow enemy to get to the central hex.


(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

I think it could be more clear if there was some information about gold income for enemies.


(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

I tried defending the center while having a mobile elite force kill leaders several times but it didn't work (killed 2 leaders max) so eventually I reloaded previous scenario and challenged Mak-Rakwhatever to play a different scenario.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
It could be 10 if there was no need to protect the central hexes. Also I got surprised enemy didn't have goal to step on the victory hex. I left the center to enemy for about 15 turns but it didn't try to kill royal family.
I rate fun factor as 6 in its current state: some units will be attacked by 3 monsters and we can do nothing about it.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Either remove need to protect center or increase starting gold. It's impossible to use cannon fodder tactics with -400 gold and it's impossible to protect the center when Great Mage dies in 3 attacks despite defense 60.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Death of royal family.

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Inky
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Re: Scenario Review: EI 18b - Weldyn Besieged

Post by Inky » September 26th, 2015, 9:34 pm

(1) Level and version? Hard, 1.12.4, 461 starting gold
(2) Difficult? (1-10) 10 (if you know how the scenario works)
(3) Objectives? Clear. - But add some dialog as to why no undead can step on your keep.
(4) Dialog? Fine.
(5) Challenges? Revealing the lich names and killing Mal Ravanal before getting slaughtered in the center. It was extremely close.
(6) Fun? (1-10) 4 - I like the idea of this scenario in theory but in practice it's a bit frustrating.
(7) Changes?

I believe that even for a challenge scenario, Weldyn Beseiged (on 1.11/1.12 with the added modification that the enemies get refunded for every kill you make) may be too difficult.

First of all, the undead unit refunding needs to be made clear to the player or they will try to defend the center, which is a slow but sure loss. I think a line of dialogue should be added, something along the lines of "Their numbers are endless! Every time we kill one of them another takes its place! Our only chance is to quickly identify and kill Mal Ravanal before we are overwhelmed." to hint at the unit replacement mechanic / strategy for winning.

Even knowing the right strategy (mass cavs to reveal the names quickly) you need a lot of gold, a lot of strong cavalry units, and some luck. I think the difficulty could be toned down a bit, or no one will play this scenario anymore. This feedback thread contains only 2 posts of feedback for the new version, both players having given it up as impossible. Then again it seems they just weren't using the right strategy (killing all enemies / killing all leaders isn't going to happen) so it could be that the difficulty is fine as is.

(8) Restarts? 2 from beginning. No saveloading here/throughout the campaign.
I first tried defending the center and killing the liches one by one, but got overrun in the center. Then tried sending lots of sacrificial cavs to reveal the lich names, but the cavs just got slaughtered before getting anywhere. Finally, sent my best cavalry units plus sacrificial cavs which worked as I had an extremely powerful mounted force (3 paladins + 3 arcane grand knights). (Note: I think most of the sacrificial cavs ended up being a waste of money. If I played the scenario again I'd go with less cavs and more Heavy infantry.)

Strategy: Since the Northeast lich always comes out to grab a village on turn 1, I send the loyal Paladin that way to reveal his name on turn 2 (unfortunately all my cavalry units are used as sacrifices this way). I place Owaec in range of the southern lich, killing him on turn 2.

I send Dacyn, Owaec and Konrad II south and then east. The idea is to use the rest of my cavalry (2 more paladins and 3 grand knights plus fresh recruits to help screen them) to reveal the names of all the northern liches, making it likely that Mal Ravanal will be the SE lich, so Dacyn and co. will already be in place to kill him.

Meanwhile I spam Heavy Infantry in the center keep and pray that they hold out long enough. It helps that I have 3 additional mages of light and several other leveled mages. Luckily for me this works out and I kill Mal Ravanal on turn 10, when things in the center have begun to look grim- night was coming and the undead had already reached the center castle. Konrad II almost dies but Mal Ravanal is too busy trying to make it back to his keep to recruit and ignores him.
EI-Weldyn_Besieged_replay.gz
(59.18 KiB) Downloaded 123 times
-------------------

General Comments on the campaign:

-I think the campaign branches should be made more transparent so people don't have to use a walkthrough. E.g. make hints in the dialogue that reaching Mal Ravanal's capital is a challenge but may prove useful. And definitely warn players more against playing Weldyn Beseiged!

-I think the new (1.11/1.12) version of Weldyn Beseiged might be too difficult. It's certainly possible, but I do think it would be more fun if it was a little more forgiving. E.g. if the player does not have a substantial cavalry force to break through and reveal the names almost immediately I don't think they have a chance.

-I feel like the Evacuation scenario is too punishing for less experienced players who are unable to save most of their veterans. It's almost directly before the final battles and you've spent the majority of the campaign carefully leveling these units. While I managed to save almost all my veterans, it seems many other players weren't able to and this would make the entire campaign pretty frustrating for them, like all the previous work was for nothing. I think easy/medium should be made easier so it's not as frustrating for the average player, and hard can be left as is.

Overall a very fun campaign; Mal Ravanal's capital is one of my favorite Wesnoth scenarios. Lots of creative scenario design here. Thanks to everyone who made this campaign!
Commented playthroughs with screenshots:
Let's Play Dead Water, Let's Play Invasion from the Unknown and Let's Play After the Storm (in progress)

Loci
Posts: 40
Joined: October 28th, 2008, 10:49 pm

Re: Scenario Review: EI 18b - Weldyn Besieged

Post by Loci » June 10th, 2016, 12:24 pm

As a counterpoint, here's my test replay from 1.12.0:
EI-Weldyn_Besieged_replay.gz
(54.19 KiB) Downloaded 72 times
I started with 600+ gold on Normal difficulty, used half of it to recall troops, and used half of those troops to win on turn 4. The RNG did deliver Mal-Ravanal as the third lich revealed (on turn 3), though I'm reasonably confident that I could have revealed several more. The southeast lich is fairly difficult to reach, which could be a bit of a problem; adding a ford on the eastern end of the river would provide an alternate path less likely to be choked with enemies.

On hard the liches start with an extra 30 gold (a 20% increase), but that still isn't enough to guarantee a single keep-full of troops.

I am also generally opposed to heavy-handed "PSST: this is how you win" dialogue. The proper strategy is already in the text: "Our mounted units are more maneuverable; if we attack in force we may be able to punch through through the enemy lines and isolate Mal-Ravanal in the chaos of battle." Players who ignore lines like: "I can tell by your words that you have not seen the hordes for yourself. It is like all the dead warriors from all the ages have come back to attack us. There is no end to the columns of marching skeletons, the wailing ghosts, the infernal bats, led by the foul necromancers who raised them." and "Mal-Ravanal's army cannot be defeated by even the might of all Wesnoth." deserve to run head-long into an endless march of undead.

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