Scenario Review - EI 11 - Lake Vrug

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dsa
Posts: 58
Joined: August 22nd, 2008, 8:46 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Scenario Review - EI: Lake Vrug

Post by dsa » November 13th, 2010, 9:44 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Challenging, 1.8.4.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8, because of the beginning, when the gryphons came out of nowhere and somehow always managed to kill an important unit of me. The trolls weren't a big problem though.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Okay.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The shroud in combination with the fast gryphons.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
4, I don't like scenarios with shroud in general. This one was frustrating in particular, because of the beginning, when I had to reload several times.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
More base income for the enemies, so something more happens after the first wave of enemy units.

podbelski
Posts: 151
Joined: June 7th, 2011, 8:35 pm

Re: Scenario Review - EI: Lake Vrug

Post by podbelski » September 6th, 2011, 10:01 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.9.8, top difficulty

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
7

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
ok

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
griffins, restarted twice at the very beginning, and reloaded one time in the end when griffin leader darted out to kill my white mage.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
good as is
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line
Posts: 94
Joined: January 11th, 2012, 9:21 pm

Re: Scenario Review - EI: Lake Vrug

Post by line » January 17th, 2012, 10:37 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.8.6, hard
339 starting gold

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
7. After you:
- learned that there is a keep northeast, you only reach crossing the mountains (I'd normally run up north along the snowed path)
- know that the gryphoons appear after a few rounds in great numbers and you have to hedgehog
- found out how to recall to serve both cirumstances, like damage tanks for the stand against especially the gryphoons but also the trolls and fast units to cross the mountains and with good ranged attack.

I think you can't make it on the first attempt, because you can't foresee what's coming up.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
What's so special about the lake's island, that we can stop fleeing here? As said, the undead can build boats to come over (Owaec you silly, except the dark sorcerer they don't even need boats), so why is our run meant to stop on the island?

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Everything, see above.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
6. It's work.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Put more sense in it. Warn about gryphoon mass bombing.
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Skippy
Posts: 85
Joined: February 10th, 2006, 2:09 am
Location: Sydney

Re: Scenario Review - EI: Lake Vrug

Post by Skippy » January 26th, 2012, 2:29 am

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Medium - 1.8.6

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
10 - it is just too random and with only 30 turns to find two hidden keeps on a large map it is keeps the annoyance going once you pass the initial onslaught.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
I knew what I had to do - I just didn't know how to do it.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Not.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(i) The initial griffin onslaught really relies on luck for meaningful survival - they can do 30 damage each to any of your units and the fact that multiple of them arrive at once means they can take down pretty much anyone. I note that every one of the previous comments observe that they had to save/reload multiple times. Not a good sign.
(ii) Where exactly are the leaders, and why is the map so big (accentuated by the mountainous terrain slowing everyone down)? Why is it felt necessary to ensure that no-one can achieve the objectives on the first go through? The shroud is thereby demonstrated to be a pointless annoyance because players must explore to learn the map before having any chance on subsequent plays to finish in time having circumvented the shroud through prior knowledge.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
1 - random followed by tedious is not fun

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Delete it. Or maybe replace it with the following dialogue "You are assaulted by griffins" with the following additional text: (50%) "You loose"; (30%) "You loose two level 3 units"; (10%) "You loose two level 2 units"; (10%) "You survive". "Reload? (Y/N)" - that would at least save some time.

line
Posts: 94
Joined: January 11th, 2012, 9:21 pm

Re: Scenario Review - EI: Lake Vrug

Post by line » January 26th, 2012, 8:36 am

To bring up my idea of the dragon of The Drowned Plains being the mighty ally we were looking for at lake vrug: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... 49#p519349 - how about Dacyn hailing him. Then the gryphoon leader (or maybe a messenger that comes across the first turn or at least the first gryphoon that later attacks) answers, that the dragon left and explains that Dacyn and his buddies are not welcome here. Then Dacyn (and not right from the beginning) should state, that we will have to fight not only the trolls but also the gryphoons/drakes and advise Gweddry to hedgehog because he knows how the gryphoons execute their attacks: great numbers of highly mobile units that nearly hit simultaneous.

line
Posts: 94
Joined: January 11th, 2012, 9:21 pm

Re: Scenario Review - EI: Lake Vrug

Post by line » May 7th, 2012, 9:16 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.9.14, hard
330 starting gold

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
How difficult is a scenario, that you can't beat on the first attempt?

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
What also seems to be strange (among many other facts) is, that trolls and gryphoons seem to live in a peaceful coexistence. How comes...?

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Quite easier, when you prepare to hedgehog even before spotting an enemy. But still preventing a loss of a veteran in the beginning was hard enough to fulfill.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
6. It's work.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I still like my idea of the mighty dragon as the leader of the island's gryphoons and drakes to be the reason for our journey to lake vrug in the north, as we where trying to establish an alliance against the undead.
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Ninjuri
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Joined: April 28th, 2012, 2:59 am
Location: California

Re: Scenario Review - EI: Lake Vrug

Post by Ninjuri » May 12th, 2012, 9:46 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Easy 1.10.2
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
5
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
100%
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
OK
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The whole time i just felt like i was a bumbling oaf stubbing my toe on tables in the darkness. I was running out of time with too much of the map unexplored, so i had to fan my units out to cover as much ground as possible. This left my lines spread thin, and oewalec got ambushed by a gryphon and the gryphon leader, who killed him. After a couple re-loads, he survived long enough to get a heavy infantry to provide cover for him, then the rest of my units just had to stand around near the two strongholds untill the fanned out lines had gathered enough for a seige. I still ended up with the complete northwest side of the map unexplored but i won it just felt weird.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
6
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
More time to explore or less to space to explore. Or maybe a hint to the approximate locations of the two enemy strongholds so i'm not using ogres to explore empty mountains while my heavy infantry get lost in a maze.
Fate is against me.

tuggyne
Posts: 76
Joined: May 22nd, 2011, 5:52 am

Re: Scenario Review - EI: Lake Vrug

Post by tuggyne » August 10th, 2012, 7:05 am

Content Feedback wrote:(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
1.9.x easy, 1.10.3 easy (somewhat over a year apart; I remembered very little from the previous run).
Content Feedback wrote:(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8. It's very difficult to predict enemy positions, and unfortunately rather important to do so.
Content Feedback wrote:(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Moderately clear, but finding the enemy leaders (especially the well-hidden trolls, with little or no clue as to their position) was challenging.
Content Feedback wrote:(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Kinda lame. The whole "bravely bravely run away" thing was already annoying, but the logic of clearing out a new micro-kingdom for yourself on an island to escape undead that can submerge in deep water anyway... I'm not seeing it.
Content Feedback wrote:(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Avoiding dive-bombing gryphons; finding keeps; not getting side-tracked by the uselessness of the abandoned keep you find. (As others have noted, it is impossible for any but the most skilled of players to make any use of this, because the units that will decide the battle have to already be several turns closer to the enemy keeps by the time you reach it.)
Content Feedback wrote:(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
3? There's not much that really goes well here; you're either getting attacked from all sides, wandering slowly through rough country frantically looking for your next target, or roflstomping an enemy (happens rarely). Oh, and then once you finally win, you discover you actually lost.
Content Feedback wrote:(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Lengthen the time pressure; it's almost impossible to get right the first time, even with excellent play, due to the mountain dynamics and the shrouding.
Give the player strong forewarning of the serious gryphon threat; either Dacyn telling you to turtle up, or outright removing the shroud. (I do get why it's shrouded; no one knows the island well enough, but it's kinda horrible to play.)
Make the gryphons weaker and the trolls a bit stronger; this will lessen the randomness and make it more obvious where the trolls are pouring from, as well as increasing the tie-in to the closing tomato surprise.
Reduce the amount of mountainous terrain a bit, to increase visibility and mobility, and lessen enemy defenses.
Content Feedback wrote:(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
I had to completely restart once due to running out of time without quite finding the trolls. I had to reload a number of times before I was able to keep my hero units alive properly (mostly the gryphon stealth bombers were tough).
Skippy wrote:(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Delete it. Or maybe replace it with the following dialogue "You are assaulted by griffins" with the following additional text: (50%) "You loose"; (30%) "You loose two level 3 units"; (10%) "You loose two level 2 units"; (10%) "You survive". "Reload? (Y/N)" - that would at least save some time.
To use chatspeak for a bit... I LOL'ed.

SBak
Posts: 78
Joined: October 8th, 2011, 1:36 am

Re: Scenario Review - EI: Lake Vrug

Post by SBak » September 16th, 2013, 8:36 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Easy and medium 1.8.5 and 1.10.5

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
Okay. If I scrape through it's 8, if I don't make it it's 10 but there's also a 9 for when I make it to the other side with too few units to finish off the enemy leaders.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
In theory quite clear, but in practice not so clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
I gave up on this at this scenario and invented my own - Dacyn is a highly non-conformist Mage with trust issues going through his name journey largely by trial and error and making it up as he goes along. He has managed to get to accompany him on this journey a well meaning but dim-witted Gweddry and a seriously depressed Owaec who, in their spare time, have general knowledge quizzes with the Ogre Grug who also isn't the sharpest tool in the box.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Generally speaking this is a scenario which you have to get through knowing from the start that the odds are stacked heavily against you, especially on Easy. You have to go through a few restarts before you can work out how to go about achieving the objectives and then another few attempts when you realize that there's a high chance of you losing your levelled units and you figure out the best way is to come in with lots of gold, recruit heavily lvl1s and hope for the best.

You can safely forget about everything you've read in the Wesnoth Tactical Guide because none of it is going to help you against the shroud, the hostile terrain, the Gryphon onslaught and the long bridge and Troll attacks. Your enemies are all level 2 and you're trying to get through this with level 1 units on unfavourable (to you) terrain. Deal with it.

Right at the start the terrain gives you a choice - you can either have a tight formation with some of your units on unfavourable terrain or you can have numerous small 'pockets' of units all on favourable terrain, which is how I got through. The only way I feel you can get through this scenario is to recruit heavily a mix of young Ogres, Heavy Infantry and Mages and get through the scenario by way of strength in numbers. Don't forget to recruit 2-3 scouts, Cavalrymen and accept that you're going to lose lots of units. I wouldn't go near any recalls - simply because you don't want any Trolls to level up to Troll Warriors or Great Trolls.

Also don't forget that you need two groups of young Ogres/Ogres for both enemy keeps because your mounted units and Heavy Infantrymen can't access mountains and cannot support Mages who can easily get slaughtered by even a single Gryphon or Troll on mountains.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
Forget it. Better to ask how frustrating do you think this scenario is - 9 or 10.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
People click on Easy or Medium for a reason. Perhaps there is a much better way of getting through this scenario but I obviously don't have the ability and I honestly can't see how saveloading would work. I've noticed that there's a significant problem with Intermediate campaigns and that problem appears to be consistency. It's not that I don't like losing units or don't like being defeated because how else are you going to learn and develop as a player if you don't make mistakes and don't lose scenarios?

I would very strongly suggest losing the shroud on this scenario or replacing it with fog because you do need a strategy to get through this scenario and knowing at least where the enemy keeps are would help. I would also increase the size of the starting keep. Having only 3-4 places to recruit/recall is ridiculous.

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flammstrudel
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Re: Scenario Review - EI: Lake Vrug

Post by flammstrudel » October 4th, 2014, 5:37 pm

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
1.10.3 hard (Challenging - Royal Guard)
200

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
5

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear. Although I wasn't sure where to find the troll boss.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Never underestimate griphons, they will tear you to shreds if you're not careful. And the fog makes them unpredictable.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
5/10 The first assault is fun (once you know what to expect), the tedious seek and destroy not so much.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
The map is somewhat bland. Could be beautified. Shroud in combination with fast moving flyers is not a great idea. And what's the deal with the north-western castle?

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Didn't find the troll boss. Three griphons dashed out of the shroud and sniped my leader.
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Nel
Posts: 8
Joined: March 4th, 2015, 8:55 pm

Re: Scenario Review - EI: Lake Vrug

Post by Nel » March 18th, 2015, 7:11 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
medium, 1.12.0
gold 380

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
6 - not as difficult as expected

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
There was a problem maybe because of the translation; it was written that Gweddry should go to the stronghold, so it took me some time to figure out that Dacyn had to.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Fine, clear. It is surprising to see drakans because they tell only about trolls and griffins, but it's fine (and if they would all be griffins instead of drakans, it would be way more difficult).

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Apart from the error in the scenario's objective, I replayed it many many time, maybe 20, to improve it and get the more money possible in prevision of scenario "Evacuation".
So, the major challenge was trying to get Dacyn as quickly as possible to the stronghold while defeating the ennemies' chiefs. (The Troll King is easier as expected, in most of my replays, he didn't attack and let my units attack him first, don't know why). And in order to get Dacyn quickly to the stronghold, one challenge is to manage to cross the bridge as quickly as possible.
Also, doing all this with the less units possible to save money.
One difficult thing is to learn to absolutely protect the damaged units because the drakans and griffins are very good at killing them when you don't see them coming. So I had to rearrange my troops several times to avoid such stupid losses.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Correct the translation problem (french).

Attached is my "money-optimized" version (172 gold saved for Evacuation), knowing exactly where to go, where are the villages etc. (but not taking all villages, it takes too much time). There are still several tactical mistakes, but with good units about to level up (especially knights, having 80% chances of hitting when the trolls are in the water and causing lots of damage), it's not as difficult as I thought when I tried first! I've learned to position my units better from the other replays available here, thanks for that. Also, I must tell there is another possibility to get to the Griffins' Chief, through the water, there's a way right in front of the entry of its valley. Also, don't wait too long before crossing the bridge. It is easier to defeat the trolls during day (moreover, they do not attack too powerful units during the day and their attacks are much weaker, so they're not as much to fear) than beginning to attack them too late, at night (I've lost many times because of that).
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Inky
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Re: Scenario Review - EI: Lake Vrug

Post by Inky » September 26th, 2015, 8:26 pm

(1) Level and version? Hard, 1.12.4, 406 starting gold
(2) Difficult? (1-10) 7. It appears to have been made easier, with Sky Drakes (a much weaker unit) replacing gryphons (this change is intentional, right?).
(3) Objectives? Clear.
(4) Dialog? Fine.
(5) Challenges? Not being able to see anything in the fog
(6) Fun? (1-10) 4. Limited visibility is a bit frustrating at the end - you have to find the keeps and fort quickly and it's hard if you don't already know where they are.
(7) Changes? Have the troll keep be a little closer (not so many mountains to cross)? And maybe more friendly terrain near the end (less frozen).
(8) Restarts? A couple (to beginning).

Finished turn 23/30. Although my income gets pretty negative, I had such high starting gold that I manage to finish with positive gold, which I definitely need for Evacuation.
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brabar
Posts: 18
Joined: August 30th, 2011, 8:18 pm

Re: Scenario Review - EI: Lake Vrug

Post by brabar » September 3rd, 2016, 9:03 pm

Hello back each and everyone !

I came back to the game after a long quit, and I find myself stuck in lake Vrug ... As I bring Gweddry into the fortress, nothing happens, though I've got rid of the Troll and Gryphon leaders ...

What do I miss ? O_o

Otherwise :

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?

Version 1.12.0 (1.12.0) easy

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

Tricky begining ... but once the bridge is crossed, nice and easy

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

OK, as long as I get an explanation of why am I stuck in this fortress without any positive effect ! :P)

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Fine

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Finish it !

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

7/10 ... tricky begining, and then, nice walk around

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

I miss dwarves in mountains !
Sorry for my poor english, it's not my native language

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Inky
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Re: Scenario Review - EI: Lake Vrug

Post by Inky » September 3rd, 2016, 9:30 pm

brabar wrote: I find myself stuck in lake Vrug ... As I bring Gweddry into the fortress, nothing happens, though I've got rid of the Troll and Gryphon leaders ...
The objectives state you need to move Dacyn there, not Gweddry.

If you meant Dacyn, then just press end turn and you should win at the beginning of next turn (there was a bug where you wouldn't win immediately, which has since been fixed.) You may want to update to the latest stable version of Wesnoth (1.12.6) since there have been a lot of bugfixes since then.

brabar
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Re: Scenario Review - EI: Lake Vrug

Post by brabar » September 3rd, 2016, 9:51 pm

Such a fast reply ! ... I'm amazed and very grateful !

Sorry, but on my french version, the objective of the scenario reads that Gweddry should get to the fortress :

http://prntscr.com/cdtgh2

Thank you so much, i'm updating right now ;)
Sorry for my poor english, it's not my native language

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