Scenario Review - EI 5 - The Northern Outpost

Feedback for the mainline campaign Eastern Invasion.

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HenryPlainview
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Re: Scenario Review - EI: The Northern Outpost

Post by HenryPlainview » October 7th, 2011, 2:06 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Hardest
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
3
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
I was unsure if the leader would appear randomly and wasted time trying to "cheat" and find him and reload. My fault for trying to cheese it, I guess.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
This is stupid. The whole campaign has dialogue that is awkward and completely unrealistic, even by Wesnoth standards, but having to cast a "spell" to be ambushed by bandits in a village makes no sense by anything established by the rest of Wesnoth. If the goal of this campaign was to make me hate that white mage more than any other character in Wesnoth, you have succeeded admirably. Normally I can at least get into the spirit of the thing, even if the dialogue sometimes falls into clunkiness, but this is the first campaign where I actually want all the characters to die.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Keeping horsemen alive on their scouting missions.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
2. Going to get ambushed in fairly spread out villages is tedious, but at least I got an amulet out of it.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Cut the spell nonsense, and shrink the map and reduce the number of villages some.

podbelski
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Re: Scenario Review - EI: The Northern Outpost

Post by podbelski » October 7th, 2011, 2:17 pm

HenryPlainview wrote: (4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
This is stupid. The whole campaign has dialogue that is awkward and completely unrealistic, even by Wesnoth standards, but having to cast a "spell" to be ambushed by bandits in a village makes no sense by anything established by the rest of Wesnoth. If the goal of this campaign was to make me hate that white mage more than any other character in Wesnoth, you have succeeded admirably. Normally I can at least get into the spirit of the thing, even if the dialogue sometimes falls into clunkiness, but this is the first campaign where I actually want all the characters to die.
then probably you should not play further friend, I'm afraid you won't be able to accept even greater stupidity w/o killing someone :) Talks will become even worse, IMO

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HenryPlainview
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Re: Scenario Review - EI: The Northern Outpost

Post by HenryPlainview » October 7th, 2011, 2:43 pm

podbelski wrote:then probably you should not play further friend, I'm afraid you won't be able to accept even greater stupidity w/o killing someone :) Talks will become even worse, IMO
Haha, maybe I should stop torturing myself and just not read them. I'm only playing through this right now because I'm stuck in the snow on Son of the Black Eye (which also has some severe dialogue problems, which I will probably rant about when I get around to writing something about scenarios I feel more positively about--too bad my replays seem to keep getting corrupted, I would have liked to provide that help for people with a more recent version of Wesnoth), and while everyone knows Wesnoth is not great literature, the campaigns are mostly competent, and it's bizarre to me that there's hardly a believable line of dialogue in the whole thing when this is one of the oldest mainline campaigns.

Oh, and I forgot to mention: I am playing 1.9.9, and the undead really should be stronger, although I assume they are weak to compensate for the sprawling annoying main objective and the incapacitation of Dacyn. With the AI's help I knocked them out with 2 shock troopers and a white mage. I respect that you were at least attempting to liven up the bash the AI over the head matches, but I think it would be more fun if killing the undead were the primary objective, not the secondary. I'm susceptible enough to fantasy tropes (obviously, or I wouldn't be spending so much time playing this game...) that you can get my attention with undead (as long as the necromancer doesn't talk...), but I really don't care about outlaws.

line
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Re: Scenario Review - EI: The Northern Outpost

Post by line » January 17th, 2012, 7:41 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.8.6, hard
414 starting gold

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
Very depending on
1) the former chosen way - coming from Mal Ravanal's capital and bringing the knights with me, it's a walk in the park but also
2) this scenario offers the ability of varying difficulty. Just keep flagging villages, even though there are still unmasked outlaws to kill and also after exposing the outlaw's boss.
So let's call it 2-5.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
I remember in Heir to the throne even the outlaws decide to help the ones who fight against the undead. Also there is not too much sense in killing the outlaws that hide in the villages, if you're about to abandon the area.
A different explanation would be, that you have to flag at least a special number of villages to pick up the people for the evacuation (because otherwise Owaec's sense of duty would make him stay and not joining you) while the outlaws misunderstand your troops' appearance as a campaign against them and therefore attack (but that wouldn't give a necessity of killing the boss).
Or let's say, you know that the outlaws wouldn't let the people go, so you have to kill the leader, to break their resistance and be able to evacuate.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
I tried to max out the XP possible to gain (as always), so it's evident not to act suicidal while trying to flag as many villages as possible.
Also I had no spearman so far, (and knowing that he'd join you in evacuation I wanted to get one) so levelling one was my mission in this one. This mission is quite appropriate to let some level-1 units gain experience.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
5. I'm not complaining about this mission being too easy, because it shall also be playable for those who went a different way in the earlier scenarios. Also you have great influence on the difficulty so imho there should not be any complaining - blame yourself for not increasing the difficulty.
The story is nonsense, but I guess the only goal was, to have the player also face other fractions than only undead.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Of course the undead are quite weak (but useful for grabbing XP with lvl-1 units), even though they have a good income each round (so they can recruit again later and delay their defeat and also Owaecs troops wouldn't be able to kill them on their own).

One possible change, what also puts more meaning in coming to the northern outpost would be, to give both Owaec and the undead more money. We came here to join with Owaec - why shall he be so much weaker/lower on gold than Gweddry was in the first scenario? And after this scenario, where we came to unify with Owaecs forces, one has to realize that the output was only one additional unit - Owaec himself. His surviving troops should be loyal troops for you, so there'd be more motivation in protecting them.
Also the weak undead leader doesn't fit in the undeads's appearance so far. With both having more gold, the fight in the southeast would be more intense.

Edit: Ooops, wrong file attached.
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line
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Re: Scenario Review - EI: The Northern Outpost

Post by line » February 7th, 2012, 10:42 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.9.14, hard
403 starting gold

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
3. The only thing to keep in mind is not to be too stormy with claiming the villages as you never know how many outlaws will pop out.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Clear. Dacyn now stays at the map, but seems to be busy with his spell.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
None.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
5.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Another change is the possibility to to command the ally's behaviour. I made them to act defensively and to protect Gweddry, because I wanted them to stay off the undead and not to steal kills. I didn't see any influence on their behaviour. They marched down to the undead and acted as always. So I couldn't find any sense in this innovation.

Edit: The replay seems to be broken. It hides the outlaws...
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Ninjuri
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Re: Scenario Review - EI: The Northern Outpost

Post by Ninjuri » May 12th, 2012, 2:06 am

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Easy 1.10.2
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
3. My strategy was to use a mix of horsemen and calvarymen, due to their resistance to impact and blade (which is what i correctly suspected the outlaws to be using), and the fact that they could scale the map and get to the villages easier. Plus a few mages just because i wanted to level them.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear, the only thing i wasn't clear about was how the outlaws were going to be hiding; at first i assumed this was going to be an ambush trait and they would be on the village when i arrived next to it, but they instead came out of it. It works either way though.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
It was pretty good, i had my ally play agressive and target undead, freeing me to conduct a search and destroy mission.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Hitting the theives/assassin when they were hiding in the trees. No big deal though. I surrounded and nipped at them do death.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8, This is one of my favs.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Hmmmm.... Duplicate it! :lol2:
Fate is against me.

SBak
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Re: Scenario Review - EI: The Northern Outpost

Post by SBak » September 16th, 2013, 1:28 am

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Easy and medium 1.8.5 and 1.10.5

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
About a 4-5. It''s a scenario that you can play about with a bit and complete in different ways and this is a good thing to me.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
It still doesn't make much sense, but it's growing on me. Why do the characters need a spell to reveal the outlaws in villages? Are they all short-sighted or something? Dacyn is a complete fruitcake, Gweddry strikes me as being a sandwich short of the complete picnic, and I can see that with Owaec we're going to be in for a barrel of laughs. This isn't quite as annoying as Konrad in HttT - the heir prince with not much self-esteem. Maybe it's my twisted sense of humour, but the campaign is starting to acquire a certain comedy value.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Generally it's dealing with the niggly little issues that you have when playing Loyalists and have a mixed army with two enemies and two separate objectives - getting XP for mages, getting mounted units through forests, and so on. My current strategy is sending a Cavalryman for the Holy Amulet south with a couple of Mages (or White Mage) and sending a mixed bandit hunting force east - Horsemen, Cavalrymen and one or two Spearmen to clean up afterwards (their first strike ability comes in useful against Thugs and they do better with resilient Footpads and Thieves that the AI sometimes throws out).

The other major challenge is dealing with the bandit leader, for some reason an Orcish Slayer, which I hate almost as much as a Ghoul. But I put this down to the Slayer being the friend of the one in the last scenario killed outside the Elvish keep who's coming back for revenge or hired by the Trolls to get back their 'trezzur'.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
I'll give this an 8 adding a bonus point for Dacyn's impersonation of a lighthouse (or is he practising for when he becomes a Mage of Light?).

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I'd give the Undead more gold. Owaec's troops tend to do all the fighting and have all the fun.

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flammstrudel
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Re: Scenario Review - EI: The Northern Outpost

Post by flammstrudel » October 4th, 2014, 5:28 pm

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
1.10.3 hard (Challenging - Royal Guard)
271 gold

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
5

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The scenario relies heavily on metagaming. If you know the mechanics it's not too hard, but you are not going to win this the first time.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
It's an interesting idea, but I am not a huge fan of game changing surprises. It's okay, not terrible, but ultimately a matter of taste. Not going to rate it.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Don't know how to make it better, without giving up the the basic principle of this scenario.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Yes, triggered the assassin on turn 19 in the northern forest, all my troops were near him. That SoB tried to escape – successfully! He didn't attack and dashed south, couldn't catch him. I reloaded an earlier autosave and positioned some units in the center of the map, because I wasn't in the mood to replay the entire mission. Quite frankly, stuff like that shouldn't happen.
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taptap
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Re: Scenario Review - EI: The Northern Outpost

Post by taptap » May 6th, 2015, 9:40 pm

I don't like this scenario. Not only is it not really fun gameplay (feels like variety for the sake of variety, honestly), it also tickles my sense of the ridiculous. "The undead will eat us all, but we can't have outlaws hiding in villages, law and order has to be maintained. The mage advisor of the king needs to busy himself with a crime detection spell."
I am a Saurian Skirmisher: I'm a real pest, especially at night.

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Inky
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Re: Scenario Review - EI: The Northern Outpost

Post by Inky » September 26th, 2015, 8:03 pm

(1) Level and version? Hard, 1.12.4, 473 starting gold
(2) Difficult? (1-10) 5, Coming from Mal Ravanal's capital it's not hard at all, but I try to level some mages here.
(3) Objectives? Clear.
(4) Dialog? Fine.
(5) Challenges? Level 2 outlaws
(6) Fun? (1-10) 8
(7) Changes? -
(8) Restarts? One to beginning. Put Gweddry on the front lines at night and the skeletons decided to chain suicide into him (I thought they'd ignore him due to his arcane damage).

Finished turn 12/20
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revolting_peasant
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Re: Scenario Review - EI: The Northern Outpost

Post by revolting_peasant » June 10th, 2016, 8:21 pm

I have a question about this level rather than an answer to the survey. How come there's no early finish bonus, like we have on almost every level where there's a safe keep? This makes me have to artificially keep Shodrano alive by playing cat-and-mouse with him, rather than killing him right away.

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zookeeper
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Re: Scenario Review - EI: The Northern Outpost

Post by zookeeper » June 10th, 2016, 11:19 pm

revolting_peasant wrote:I have a question about this level rather than an answer to the survey. How come there's no early finish bonus, like we have on almost every level where there's a safe keep? This makes me have to artificially keep Shodrano alive by playing cat-and-mouse with him, rather than killing him right away.
Looks like someone's messed up there and removed the bonus when they shouldn't have. Thanks for noticing, I'll fix that.

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revolting_peasant
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Re: Scenario Review - EI: The Northern Outpost

Post by revolting_peasant » June 11th, 2016, 9:54 am

zookeeper: Note that, at the moment, you get to keep 70% of the gold at the end of the scenario. Maybe there was some logic there after all, considering the fact that flagging villages is more of an issue in this scenario. So, when you look into it, please take the time to talk to whoever set it that way. Also, if you don't revert the gold carry-over rules to the default, consider tweaking the dialog, the narration and/or the scenario objectives to "rationalize" this special arrangement.

And - thanks! Your taking the time to do maintenance work is very much appreciated!

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