Scenario Review: NR 12 - Get the Gold

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Scenario Review: NR 12 - Get the Gold

Post by Content Feedback » March 12th, 2008, 12:18 pm

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 12 - Get the Gold

Post by Diendiadre » September 28th, 2008, 7:55 pm

1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

The middle difficulty and I don´t know which one that was.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

7, This is a rather simple scenario, although not one that I particular like.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear as crystal.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

There was a lot of nice interaction between the characters and a lot of storydevelopment. Many things that are very memorable happens in the since between this one and the fort scenario. However it´s sad that you can´t save the elven leader in this scenario. She seems cute and interesting, but it´s really difficult to get to her in time. The computer ai makes good use of the river to drown all his troops and subesequently the poor elven leader too.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

I had one of the major characters die once. I don´t remember which one, but as usual it was because of some lucky troll.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7, which ofcourse isn´t bad, but really it´s kinda low considering the great Quality of this

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Make it possible to save that cute elven leader. Perhaps by allowing her to stay put at her fortress. Seeing her walking towards her suicide, when you yourself have plenty of troops to spare, is depressing.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
As stated before I lost one of the many major characters.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
I´m sorry I don´t know any Wesnoth markup language.

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Death
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 12 - Get the Gold

Post by Death » January 13th, 2009, 7:38 am

To save the Elven leader, you pretty much have to kill the Orc leader before he's done recruiting.

To do that (and this works on Nightmare), it basically requires a concerted push from about 1-2 recruits of your main lvl 3 units.


I used something like 5-6 dwarven lords plus 1-2 dragonguards coming down the east, with my mages/liches + a few melee (including Tallin) pushing straight down the forest. Elves/Drakes don't really matter except to take away some of the pressure.

The goal each turn is to gain ground by killing & moving up. By a few turns, you should be within striking distance of the orc fort, and with the mages/liches blasting the fort troops, you can cover the holes to block recruits and get closer to the leader. Keep it up until you can reach him, then blow him away.

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Re: Scenario Review: NR 12 - Get the Gold

Post by Ilanin » May 3rd, 2009, 11:06 pm

1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

Easy 1.6

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

3, keeping Sisal alive 5-6 depending on how stupid she is.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

It is not at all apparent that in order to get your gold back for Showdown you need to keep Sisal alive - in fact...
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

It's good. All of Northern Rebirth's dialog is good, this is no exception. There is one problem, though - Tallin says "Thanks to Hidel and the Elves, we have recovered our gold...", even if Sisal is dead and you in fact haven't at least as far as Showdown is concerned.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

It's not hard to just win. Trying to win keeping Sisal alive is much harder, because the AI generally suicides her into the river or amongst a large clump of orcs if you give it more than five turns. So you end up flinging Dwarf Lords and assorted mages at the orcish positions, trying to work out who to kill to open up the ZOC for the next strike. Not exactly normal Wesnoth but it's fantastic fun. I found magic attacks highly helpful in rooting out the Slayers that were in the way, and running the drakes around the Orcs' south flank (use mostly Gliders) can maybe buy you an extra turn or two.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

It's a bit of a drudge if you don't try to keep Sisal alive, 4; if you do, 9.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?


(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

Not quite. Sisal dying caused me to go back and replay it once I'd realised what it caused.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?

The WML rather hilariously notes that Sisal is set to play "cautiously" which is amusing for a side which holds a fantastic defensive position and will nontheless die in 5-7 turns having abandoned it. But yes, it is clear, well formatted, and was a good example for me when I was learning WML.
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 12 - Get the Gold

Post by beetlenaut » May 10th, 2009, 9:01 pm

I don't really understand why you don't get the gold if Sisal dies. Tallin's dialog seems to imply that you will get it back from the orcs if you kill them (which makes sense). You should at least make it clear that you don't get it if she dies by putting a note in the objectives. However, as other people have noted, whether she dies or not seems mostly based on luck. Sometimes she charges the enemies in the water, and she's a goner.
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 12 - Get the Gold

Post by stupidjaguar » July 17th, 2009, 9:06 am

1. Easy

2. 6, but I haven't finished it because I came here after Sisal jumped in the river. It does seem easier compared to some of the other scenarios, though.

3. The objectives merely state to "Defeat the orcs", as always, this is vague; must I simply kill the leader or must I destroy every enemy unit in order to succeed in "defeating the orcs"? Judging from the comments, the former, but this should be stated. Also, it also seems from the comments that if Sisal dies, the gold is not retrieved... this is sort of important and should be stated also.

4. Very clear and interesting, as is most of this campaign, but could use some thorough proofreading occasionally for sporadic minor errors.

5. No real problems getting rid of orcs, just throw dwarf lords at them with the white mages by their side and bring the liches along... that is an invincible army. The problem is, as others have noted, keeping Sisal alive. It's common sense in Wesnoth not to leave your keep until you are sure you are going to win and you are surrounded by your army to go in for the kill. Not only is she not surrounded by her army, she jumps in the water and waits for orcs to defeat her. I've never seen the AI act quite this stupid. Having read some of the other comments, I shall return and attempt to destroy the leader before Sisal gets her feet wet.

6. 5 - Having only one orc leader to kill, while satisfying to kill and overwhelm, is not quite as fun as the previous scenario where you can sit Tallin on a keep and have him recruit Ulfserkers right next to your enemies while your enemies recruit masses of units next to all your others... completely defies normal strategy because there are no fronts and flanks and so it's fantastic... this level is a simple battle but judging from the comments, keeping Sisal alive seems to be more of a challenge so that could definitely make it more fun... I have not succeeded in keeping her alive yet. This scenario is not necessarily fun to play but plotwise it is very important, so I would not make any changes except, see other responses... please try and keep Sisal from acting stupidly at least for a few more turns.

7. Turn on the WML switch for Sisal to stay put at her keep. She has no need to go jumping in the river.

8. Sisal having a death wish and attacking orcs in the river. I mean really. "Hello friends! Come and help! But meanwhile I'll jump in the water so three orcs can kill me. Try and keep me alive if you can!" I am tempted to assume control of Sisal and then have her stay on her keep.

9. The WML is clean, clear, and very well commented, but oddly enough Sisal's side is "set to play cautiously" with a value of 0.7... Sisal's behavior can be called foolish, rash, short-thinking, ANYTHING but "cautious". Perhaps the value should be set to 2.0, then she wouldn't have the bad sense to jump in the river. I feel I am being repetitive about that now.

This scenario is unfortunately somewhat of a speed and luck game... if Sisal invariably moves into the water, her survival is a question of luck and my success in winning before she dies is a matter of speed and cunning... this will take some strange strategy, as hitting the orc army will simply block my path to the leader... perhaps some more elves?
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 12 - Get the Gold

Post by nuorc » September 3rd, 2009, 7:16 pm

Having played & enjoyed nearly all other mainline campaigns, I think this scenario is the ultimate let-down/low point.

So the hero Sisal was able to get the gold and to stay alive until we arrive. Just when the rescue is close, she does everything possible to get herself killed and thus hand over the war chest to the enemy? That's just plain ridiculous & aggravating.

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Easiest (v1.6.2)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
2: Just defeating the enemy is pretty easy.
/
8: Saving Sisal is pretty tricky.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
10: Kill the enemy, not much room for interpretation.
/
1: Save Sisal to get the gold isn't stated.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Dialog & storyline are fine, except that it's not stated that you need to save Sisal. It's not really clear why you lose the gold if she is killed, but enemies disappearing when cornered/killed isn't that unusual in BfW...

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Stated objectives: none.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
1. Since '0' isn't on the scale...

I didn't like being forced to use a 'strategy' which includes wasting ('sacrificing' would be the friendlier wording...) units to save Sisal. Not getting the loot due to some bug made the whole thing even more pointless... (The 80% still worked fine overall for the final battle.)

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
a: Leave it out.
b: State that Sisal is a suicidal maniac & you still have to save her to get the gold.
c: Make the enemy go after her instead of attacking me, while she is somewhat cleverly defending herself until we get to her; state that you need to save her to get the gold.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Can you guess? On my second try (after I sent one keep of Gryphons and one keep of Gliders to save her), she wasn't able to get herself killed in the water, so she happily sought to get killed on the northern shore; had to reload the last turn, so the AI only attacked her with one Troll.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
N/A

btw: Thanks to everyone working on the game; I really like it! (Except the end of this campaign, which I think is a pity since the campaign is really good!

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Re: Scenario Review: NR 12 - Get the Gold

Post by Ernesto Manifesto » September 28th, 2009, 10:56 pm

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Easiest (v1.6.2)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
Defeating the bad guy is pretty easy: 2
Saving Sisal is harder: 7

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
A little confusing. You don't realize you need to save Sisal until you "lose" once.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Storyline fine, except about the saving Sisal to get the gold part.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Saving Sisal took a bit of thought. But given it wasn't a stated objective....

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(6)


(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Make it clear you need to save Sisal to get the gold.
Also having Sisal a bit less suicidal would help.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Not saving Sisal. I finally recruited a few Gryphons on my first turn and a couple of keeps of Gliders. (fast) I positioned the Gliders in the river blocking Sisal's suicide attempts. I also made all most of my elves attack around the right flank also cutting off suicide attempts. Worked.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
N/A

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Re: Scenario Review: NR 12 - Get the Gold

Post by sw_emigre » December 9th, 2009, 8:58 pm

I played on the 3rd hardest level, and though I only went through it once, I found no way to keep Sisal alive. I have a ginormous host of lvl3 dwarves and others, so the frontal assault was no problem. I recalled 2 gryphons and every fast drake I had, and still couldn't get to her in time. Someone else remarked that the next scenario is still do-able even without the gold, which is good, as if it's not, it will seem to be quite a waste to get here and see no way of progressing. Why can't she and 1-2 bodyguards sit in the castle, and let the rest of her minions go suicide in the river if need be? (Though I see no reason why they can't all sit in the castle, even if that means giving her less gold. A potential dialogue point could be Tallin telling her to use some of the gold to recruit more elves.)

Minor bugs:

1. After defeating the orc, Tallin says that we have recovered the gold, even though Sisal died, and I don't see any gold added to the carryover.
2. On the status table, the orcs come up as "Alliance".

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Re: Scenario Review: NR 12 - Get the Gold

Post by silent » December 10th, 2009, 1:17 am

sw_emigre wrote:I played on the 3rd hardest level, and though I only went through it once, I found no way to keep Sisal alive. I have a ginormous host of lvl3 dwarves and others, so the frontal assault was no problem. I recalled 2 gryphons and every fast drake I had, and still couldn't get to her in time. Someone else remarked that the next scenario is still do-able even without the gold, which is good, as if it's not, it will seem to be quite a waste to get here and see no way of progressing. Why can't she and 1-2 bodyguards sit in the castle, and let the rest of her minions go suicide in the river if need be? (Though I see no reason why they can't all sit in the castle, even if that means giving her less gold. A potential dialogue point could be Tallin telling her to use some of the gold to recruit more elves.)

Minor bugs:

1. After defeating the orc, Tallin says that we have recovered the gold, even though Sisal died, and I don't see any gold added to the carryover.
2. On the status table, the orcs come up as "Alliance".
I also had the same problem in 1.6 when I saved sisal. Why did this happen?

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Re: Scenario Review: NR 12 - Get the Gold

Post by shadowblack » July 13th, 2010, 9:46 pm

First of all, the orcs are supposedly part of the alliance team – which is my team, and so it doesn’t make ANY sense! Why would the orcs be on the same team as me? And if we’re on the same team – why are they attacking me?


1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
1.8.3, Spearman (Challenging), i.e. Normal difficulty

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
111+ if you want to save Sisal, otherwise it's no more than 4

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
SEEMS clear – but in fact the objective is misleading, because it makes it seem like you get the gold back even if Sisal dies, and that is NOT the case.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Fine

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
SISAL is a brainless IMBECILE!!! The secondary challenge is my units having a competition of who will miss more times, but even if they hit all of their attacks it doesn’t stop Sisal from committing suicide.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
-11 – NOT FUN AT ALL!!! No matter how good I play Sisal gets herself killed (unless you’re really lucky and are willing to load a few dozen times until she gets lucky and survives).

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Let the player control Sisal. Or at least make her STAY in her damn keep!

Also, make it clear that if Sisal dies you don’t get the gold.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
First attempt: Sisal got herself killed the third time she got in the water. It was obvious I could do nothing to save her, so loaded from turn 1
Second attempt: Sisal jumped into the water and got killed on turn 1. That’s right – TURN ONE! ONE!!! WTF???
Third and every other attempt: Sisal always jumps in the water and gets herself hurt badly at turn 1. In the best case scenario she dies the third time she gets in the water (i.e. turn 5)

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
It’s well-documented, but what is written in the comments is not what actually happens, as far as Sisal is concerned:
# Allied AI - Sisal, set to play cautiously
Jumping in the water and getting killed on the very first turn is playing cautiously? I’m afraid to imagine what it would be to play recklessly…


I will make ONE last attempt to win this fairly, and then I will cheat by taking control of Sisal’s side as well. That seems to be the only wait to make her really play "cautiously".
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 12 - Get the Gold

Post by Nkwazi » February 3rd, 2011, 1:26 am

I see people here talk about Sisal surviving to the 5th turn but I don't even get close. First turn she jumps in the water and gets killed. At best she kills 2 orcs and survives long enough for the orcs to surround her and even if she survived she would be incapable of fleeing back to her keep. Any ideas?

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Re: Scenario Review: NR 12 - Get the Gold

Post by Ceres » April 3rd, 2011, 10:22 pm

1) Level, Version? Normal, 1.9.4
2) Difficulty? 3. Going to the forest to cut orcs as trees.
3) Clear? Clear.
4) Dialogue? Really, really good.
5) Challenges? No. Due to the nice ability to make Sisal to de defensive, she didn't jump in the water.
6) Fun? 5. 4vs1 is a bit very simple.
7) Changes? -
8) Restarts? None.
9) WML?

Code: Select all

#TODO what does this?
        [role]
            [filter_wml]
                [variables]
                    role=Supporter
                [/variables]
            [/filter_wml]
            role=Supporter
        [/role]
I don't know if [role] accepts filters except type=, but even if, what's the sense of giving a role to a unit that already has this role?

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Re: Scenario Review: NR 12 - Get the Gold

Post by Maiklas3000 » April 8th, 2011, 10:44 pm

(1) What difficulty? Nightmare; 1.9.5; 163 starting gold for Tallin (150 is minimum).
(2) How difficult? (1-10) 4 to win, 6 to save the allied Elf
(3) How clear? Not that clear. The objectives said I could issue orders to the allied Elf, but that's only the case for Tallin's side. Ironically, the elves cannot issue orders to the allied Elf. (Neither can the Drakes.) I kept forgetting to try on Tallin's turn, so I never issued orders to the allied Elf. Also, it's not clear that you "get the gold" if you save the allied Elf leader. I am even now not sure if I "got the gold" after winning the scenario and saving the Elf.
(4) Dialog? Fine.
(5) Challenges? Saving the elf, preserving loyals.
(6) How fun? (1-10) 7
(7) Changes? Clarify objectives so that we know how to "get the gold".
(8) Restarts? None. No save-reloads either.
(9) WML? Good.
(10) Replay? Attached. I recommend at least 3x acceleration. It was a sloppy victory, losing a loyal level 3 drake and jeopardizing Tallin at one point. I sent a couple of drakes in a half-hearted attempt to help the allied Elf leader. I think she got lucky to survive, but survive she did. Killing the enemy leader was not really a problem. Victory came on turn 10 for a big early finish bonus.
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brabar
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 12 - Get the Gold

Post by brabar » November 4th, 2011, 11:32 pm

Content Feedback wrote:(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Version 1.8.5 on easy with gold more than enough
Content Feedback wrote:(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
3/10 even saving the rich elf (reloaded once on turn five when she got killed, and won on turn 6 right after that.
Content Feedback wrote:(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Perfectly clear
Content Feedback wrote:(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Nice, though there could be more dramatic intensity ... But let's assume the orcs are really stupid ... :roll:
Content Feedback wrote:(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Keeping the elf banker alive ... I didn't took much care of saving lives otherwise ...

I rushed as many strong recalls as possible southwards, but I found myself kind of stucked behind such an orcish wall that I couldn't use my troops alltogether ...

I succeeded in getting a few fast units through, along the eastern limit of the map, but not fast enough to really protect the banker elf ... it was clearly luck, this time ...

GOOD NEWS are that the rich ally doesn't go swimming on turn 1 anymore, she first acts normally, before freaking out on turn 5 ... :whistle:
Content Feedback wrote:(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
Let's say 5/10, but the only challenge is saving the gold ... the orcish leader tried to jump into the battle on turn 5 and got washed out next turn ... 8)
Content Feedback wrote:(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
The best would be to have every ally under our control, and re-inforce orcs a little ...
Content Feedback wrote:(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Yes, I reloaded once because of the death of the swimming elf banker (nice swiming suit, though) ... and then fixed the "problem" by killing the orcish nut ...
Content Feedback wrote:(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
Sorry, I'm just a player, kind of an old idiot who can't read the first line of code ... But I did transmit the link to wesnoth to clever persons able to interfere with it, as long as they find some time for it ... :hmm:
Sorry for my poor english, it's not my native language

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