Scenario Review: NR 2 - Infested Caves

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Re: Scenario Review: NR 2 - Infested Caves

Postby AxalaraFlame » November 6th, 2012, 9:29 pm

Speedbrain wrote:
AxalaraFlame wrote:This scenerio is basically too hard to accomplish...
My version is 1.10.0, difficulty nightmare
:lol2:
Just saying.
You also said you beat it without save/loading one turn before the limit. Sure you needed a little luck, but on nightmare difficulty, it sounds like it might be just fine.

Sorry, paradoxical word choices. I will edit it.
Besides, we balance campaigns for all users, not for a personal interest. Generally speaking, it is too hard, I would neutrally and responsibly make such a comment. I dunno what irony are you making, but if you think that is easy, that is your own idea.
Last edited by AxalaraFlame on November 12th, 2012, 9:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 2 - Infested Caves

Postby taptap » November 8th, 2012, 12:58 pm

AxalaraFlame wrote:Le me be frankly, this scenerio is basically too hard to accomplish properly, unless you try many times, and with luck stands with you.
My version is 1.10.0, difficulty nightmare as usual since it provides general strategies. It is hard due to these aspects:
1. It is insanely hard to break through trolls and undead to reach the dwarf, so seeing the dwarf is unrealistic. Unless, you save and load many times and willing not to be morally damaged, losing too many units within a short turn


No, it isn't.

1) Killing all enemies is NOT the objective of this scenario.

2) Once you have general knowledge of this scenario, i.e. know where the dwarves are / how the trolls behave / about Camerin, it is perfectly possible to win this (i.e. break through to Hamel) with negative luck.

3) Replaying until you end with +16% luck isn't that much different from save-loading (even if it doesn't result from s/l proper).
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 2 - Infested Caves

Postby AxalaraFlame » November 8th, 2012, 4:32 pm

Can you please show us your replay or screenshots to indicate how to break the lines and see Hamel on nightmarish level? I strongly doubt about your breaking-troll/undead+see Hamel strategy. It would easily work out the easier levels, but on nightmare it sounds like joking. I have played this scenerio dozens of times, and my knowledge with these enemies is, let me be humble, more than "general".
The trolls behave rather offensively, even of they have the oppotunities to punch skeletons, dealing more damage and take less than hitting thugs, they would always intend to hit my thugs as well, including the situation I station them on castles. I am not sure what is your "how the trolls behave" indicate.

Besides, you need to fix your maths somehow. :lol2: You just can not add those two stats together, because they are totally different stories.
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 2 - Infested Caves

Postby taptap » November 8th, 2012, 5:49 pm

The following is the replay when I played through Northern Rebirth in July (1.10.3). You see I am very troubled for a long time, I have to defend for a long time in the former brown troll keep and in general it doesn't go as I intended (push through to the dwarves fast and then with the backing of the high income reconquer the central cave was the original plan, not spending enough on the initial recruit was probably a mistake slowing me down). But finally breaking through is no magic. The luck is even or negative until turn 37, when among other things an outlaw placed to lure out the L3 skeleton leader gives an amazing dodging demonstration, there it turns positive for me and never evens out again. So, here you have the strategy demonstrated with quite a bit of error and still succeeding in the end. There is an older replay by me (with the same strategy but better result) in this thread, but I don't have a local copy of that one. And of course there are replays by Maiklas and Wesbane just some posts above, all of them on nightmare.

The brown trolls will usually prefer attacking skeletons. Check the move order and the skeletons available for the trolls. What kind of units you put in the frontline seems to affect the outcome as well. (I have footpads on the outer circle, and keep thugs / few poachers inside and move them to the front only when I have to deal damage to trolls.)
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 2 - Infested Caves

Postby AxalaraFlame » November 8th, 2012, 8:58 pm

taptap wrote:The following is the replay when I played through Northern Rebirth in July (1.10.3). You see I am very troubled for a long time, I have to defend for a long time in the former brown troll keep and in general it doesn't go as I intended (push through to the dwarves fast and then with the backing of the high income reconquer the central cave was the original plan, not spending enough on the initial recruit was probably a mistake slowing me down). But finally breaking through is no magic. The luck is even or negative until turn 37, when among other things an outlaw placed to lure out the L3 skeleton leader gives an amazing dodging demonstration, there it turns positive for me and never evens out again. So, here you have the strategy demonstrated with quite a bit of error and still succeeding in the end. There is an older replay by me (with the same strategy but better result) in this thread, but I don't have a local copy of that one. And of course there are replays by Maiklas and Wesbane just some posts above, all of them on nightmare.

The brown trolls will usually prefer attacking skeletons. Check the move order and the skeletons available for the trolls. What kind of units you put in the frontline seems to affect the outcome as well. (I have footpads on the outer circle, and keep thugs / few poachers inside and move them to the front only when I have to deal damage to trolls.)

Thank you, I will check and reply tonight. :)

6:30pm, Nov.8th, 2012
I checked it. Nice played. It seems that we have used totally different strategies to win. This is a really tough war, and negative defense is always necessary. I guess I may finish mine in a better way to make it applicable, and I will try your way to do it again as well.

Here is mine. You may check it and point out what mistakes did I make. I think that my main mistake happened in taking down the south skeletons. This process is exacted somehow too reckless; If I did not open the cave door that early, I may land safely and finish him earlier.
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 2 - Infested Caves

Postby HomerJ » November 16th, 2012, 9:37 am

taptap, AxalaraFlame, I have watched both of your most recent replays and found them quite entertaining.

taptap, good job on the most promising migration approach, things looked grim in between but you struggled out of it like a boss. My only irritation would come from the fact that you rarely used Tallin and Zlex and so didn't get them much xp. Having Zlex a lvl1 or higher in "To the mines" can be very useful.

Axa, first of all, nice job on ending the scenario by killing all the leaders on highest difficulty! Also, doing this in the way presented (killing off the north/south trolls and use the trap doors to eventually kill north/south skellies before clearing the main chamber) is very impressive.
However, I hope you do realize that this whole approach was only possible because both north/south troll leaders suicided against you. The north troll leaped out very early, and received enough retaliation to be killed by 4/4 from the fire mage. The south troll eventually exposed himself to three hexes and was killed in a single turn.

This is far from being guaranteed. If it takes you a turn or two longer to lure them out, you can't finish in time. For example, if Camerin did hit only with 3 strikes, he would have stepped back to recruit for a number of turns until at max HP.
Also, completely abandoning the main chamber is kind of a gamble, I have played games where the east troll leader managed to stall the black skellies and both north/south skellies at there cave entrances. If he then gets additional income from all the villages in the main chamber you face serious lvl2/3 troll problems and might not be strong enough to kill his forces.


Anyway, so who is up to NR challenges now? One of the most enjoyable and equally challenging is to play through without recalls.


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Re: Scenario Review: NR 2 - Infested Caves

Postby AxalaraFlame » November 16th, 2012, 1:35 pm

Yeah, I have noticed that. This is basically a lucky turn, I cannot be quite sure how much possibility could it happen(24%?), but it do happens; the south troll leader try to make two suicidal attacks, and just as you can see, I falied to kill him at first time; that is partially the reason why do I need such a long time destroying the south. His second suicidal attack was not successive. Exposing at three positions to lv2 chaotic units would obviously results in his demise.

I was not fucusing on this scenerio recently, but I will redo it some day later and prove how to destroy all leaders by negative luck. I always insist that this might be even easier strategy than rushing to east, and it can be more instructive, since the strategy is rather ossified, and we can follow certain steps to reach certain objectives. In my replay, I guess the difference is but the case of some more dead thugs.

Doing all NR scenerios without recall is a not a challenging job, even on nightmare. Nearly all scenerios rely on horrifying assaults by a horde of fresh units, so I did not see much point on it. Scenerio2,3,4,5 basically rely on lv1s. In scenerio 8,9,11, with that numbers of enemies, your recall become feckless as well. Scenerio6 could be a bit trisky, because that 5 recalls can sling your ass. In scenerio7 you scarcely need any recalls, rush by heroes would suffice. Scenerio8 have no recruit or recall options. So I cannot see the point challenging this objective, hm. :hmm: It is like the fact rather a challenge.

Besides, 2 questions:
1. why do you alreays sign "Greetz HomerJ"?
2. why do you call yourself "Homer"?

GL&HF :)
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 2 - Infested Caves

Postby SBak » July 10th, 2013, 11:15 pm

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)


Initially 9, then 6.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?


Fairly clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?


Having played local games in MP I started to suspect that this is some sort of history behind the Knalgan Alliance.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?


Working out the layout of the caves, positions and where all the enemies are coming from. Then recruiting so that I could organize the Poachers and Footpads.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)


Initially 3 then 8.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?


It was actually quite fun as it is.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?


Relying heavily on Footpads didn't work. Half the time when I got the Trolls to fight the Skeletons they ganged up on my forces. In the end things got much easier when I figured that the only way was to get control of both main chamber and the initial recruiting base and set up choke points. This produced some Fugitives, Trappers, Bandits and Outlaws.
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 2 - Infested Caves

Postby Chris7mas » November 9th, 2013, 2:09 pm

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Peasant (Normal)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8 - Pretty difficult, I had to restart the scenario several times (I don't like to save/reload in the middle of a scenario). Also, sometimes I restarted the whole campaign in order to get more gold and try different tactics. The tactic that worked for me best was to just block the south corridor and the main east corridor near the castle, and wait for the skeletons to finish the trolls and then pursue them, slowly. Getting the Red Mage in two turns (if I recall correctly) with footpads and blocking the northern tunnel quickly is the first priority (they usually get out with leader and it allows me to slay him with mage/archer duo, or mage and thugs). Recruitment style was 80% thugs, 10% footpads and 10% archers. I found out footpads don't work well for me, instead a rotation of thugs and archers seems the way to go.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear enough.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Decently interesting.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Fighting through the eastern corridors (worked best for me to let the skeletons finish off the trolls and then defend 4-5 more turns before going in). Going in at first with everything and trying to block the corridors results in fail for me.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
9 - Very fun. It can get boring at times when AI has to move, and I know some players don't like this type of scenario (very large armies with narrow tunnels) but I like this defensive playing style, it allows to hit, rotate and protect, and easily level up lots of units.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Can't think of anything now.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Yes, badly applied tactics. The scenario is quite hard to learn and needs to be played at least three or four times in order to learn what you have to do and to know which tactics work and which usually don't.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
I'm not familiar with WML.
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 2 - Infested Caves

Postby taptap » November 11th, 2013, 11:19 am

@chris7mas: Do I understand this correctly? You took out the northern troll first and then went to the main room controlled by skeletons? I am a bit surprised you managed to pull this off without being inundated by skeletons, probably a bit dependent on difficulty level. Personally, I never won this without playing a variant of the migration strategy (on highest and second highest difficulty).
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 2 - Infested Caves

Postby podbelski » June 26th, 2014, 6:26 pm

1.11.15, medium difficulty

insanely hard map. After a few restarts I realized the way to beat it, but save/loaded quite a number of times.

I delayed the victory till the last turn to gain max xp and gold.
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 2 - Infested Caves

Postby Konrad2 » November 27th, 2014, 2:42 pm

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Nighmarish
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
10
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
very clear
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
i like that bat.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
clearing out the north and south trolls so i could backstab the north and south undead and then clearing up the main champer so i could start saving the dwarves. so basically the whole scenario :D
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
9
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
give the brown trolls more gold, so they dont die that fast. they are always being wiped out by the undead in turn 10 to 15
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
recalling units i wanted to trian, i took it to easy and wanted my lawful units to get some xp too

my suspection is that the trolls get wiped out because the have (compared to"hard") only 100 gold more, while the undead have all in all 300 gold more. and the undead and the trolls slaughter each other before they even attack me
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 2 - Infested Caves

Postby shadow12 » December 25th, 2015, 9:29 am

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Challenging, Wesnoth 1.10.5, iOS app 1.0.4
Ended on turn 39 with 2101 carry over gold.
Game total: 62 recruits, 39 losses

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10) 8. I recommend playing it first without caring about your losses, just to figure out the map, then replay it. It was straight forward after that.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

The objective didn't tell you that you get a lot more carry over gold for clearing the caves of all enemy units, compared to moving Tallin into the dwarf castle.
I did a test with Tallin positioned to move into the castle and also my units positioned to slay the last enemy unit. I ended on turn 39, then went back to turn 38. Results (both ending the game on turn 39):
647 carry over gold by moving Tallin to the dwarf castle.
2101 carry over gold by slaying all the enemy units.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario? Clear and interesting.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The Orange skeletons from the south were tough.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
10, very fun! One of my favorite scenarios!
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Excellent as is! A challenge that felt good winning. I liked the map with its secret passages and different enemy chambers.
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Yes, I restarted once after doing a trial run first.

Strategy:
Spoiler:


Edit: Overall this is a good campaign, but some of these scenarios are tough. (I didn't care for The Persuit scenario but liked all the rest.) Its worth it to get to the end of the campaign.
I wish I could attach a replay, but there is no way that I can find to upload/download BfW replays on my iPad.
A hint is to send fast footpads out right away to block tunnels. Keep replacing them. It helped to have a lot of gold starting out.
And in the main chamber, I stayed in a group off to the left. The enemy will mostly avoid you and fight each other. I think if they see you as being a strong group, they fight someone else. When they have reduced their numbers by slaying each other, go in for the kill.
Last edited by shadow12 on February 20th, 2016, 10:58 pm, edited 22 times in total.
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 2 - Infested Caves

Postby tr0ll » January 3rd, 2016, 2:01 am

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

1.13.2 easy level

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

10 (still havent won).
if winning requires use of knowledge gained from previous plays or from external hints, that automatically makes it a 10 as well.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

quite clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

clear, dialog sets mood nicely. situation is desperate.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

surviving.
havent figured out what mix of units will hold the northwest and southwest trolls at bay, nevermind wipe them out.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

could be quite fun, not so much after 4th try haha.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

i suppose the clue where the dwarves went is there (railroad track) but a hint could be useful on the "easy" level if player hasnt moved units out of start area by turn 10 or so.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

always get wiped out around turn 15, on all three fronts. units and terrain dont seem strong enough to hold.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?

n/a.

(update) Got a lot further by taking a more aggressive strategy and using more footpads. Found the dwarfs but was too aggressive on the west side and couldnt save Tallin when the western front collapsed.
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 2 - Infested Caves

Postby BillytheBabyGoat » December 21st, 2016, 12:51 am

Content Feedback wrote:(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?


1. Nightmare.

2. 9.

3. Very.

4. Seemed interesting and clear enough, don't get killed and find the dwarves.

5. Time limit became an issue (Couldn't kill all bosses in time), rescuing Cameron was tough although not an objective, getting past the brown leader was brutal.

6. 10.

7. None, very difficult and fun scenario.

8. Attempted to wipe everything out, which didn't really work out. Had to reload a second time due to unlucky RNG (Zlex got mauled sitting on a castle, was trying not to lose loyal units if at all possible).
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