Scenario Review: NR 2 - Infested Caves

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Re: Scenario Review: NR 2 - Infested Caves

Postby Herduk » September 10th, 2010, 10:23 am

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Easy
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8 (6 on reply)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
A bit confuse about "tallin to the dwarven hall". Seems to me to be the throne tile on east.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Nice
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Reaching choke points with the right units. Avoid L2 trolls until i get enough spearmen/archers
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
More enemies type. Less dispersive map
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
No
Don't bother a dwarf.. you can argue with his hammer!
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 2 - Infested Caves

Postby ozean » December 6th, 2010, 10:25 am

I am currently playing this scenario in 1.9.2 at the second hardest difficulty and I really find it very hard to keep the line against the skeletons. I think one of the main reasons is that the footpads have been nerfed in 1.9.1 (one less damage in melee & missile) - maybe it would make sense to reduce the number of skeletons that spawn / the income of the undead bosses a bit? (As footpads seem to be the clear hold-the-line unit for this scenario.)

I have no overly huge problem to work my way through the north and south tunnels. (Poachers being the unit of choice here.)

I don't remember how well the trolls in the east did when I played this scenario for the first time (between 1.4 and 1.6 I’d guess, probably before it made mainline), but in this iteration they seem to have no chance against the skeletons in all of the three attempts that I have to succeed in this scenario so far. I hope I make it in the fourth go.

In any case: thanks again for this wonderful campaign. The opening scenarios are really very well done, especially story & identification-with-their-plight wise!
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 2 - Infested Caves

Postby ozean » December 9th, 2010, 1:33 pm

In addition, it might be a good idea to change the scenario objectives so that the Death of Hamel (as a failure event) does not appear before one has actually found Hamel. I was confused when I read this – which of my units is called Hamel?

(And I still haven't managed to beat the scenario on hard - I can now bite through all the defenses, but I arrive in too late in the south-east corner. The brown trolls really don't last very long against the skeletons…

After having read all posts in this thread, I think a few things that should be addressed have been pointed out repeatedly (unclear dialogue regarding the goals, unclear what tile the throne is and when/how/where to meet the dwarves).

But since the Footpad is essential for many of the possible winning strategies (especially on the harder difficulties), this level really needs some adjustments after the Footpad’s damage output has been reduced.

Thanks! :)

PS: I also uploaded a save of my most recent attempt at cracking the nut
NR-Infested_Caves_Turn_49.gz
Save of the fifth, improved attempt
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 2 - Infested Caves

Postby Maiklas3000 » January 26th, 2011, 9:32 pm

(1) Difficulty level? Nightmare; 1.9.3 edit: 1.9.4; 549 starting gold
(2) How difficult? (1-10) 9.9, hardest of any mainline campaign scenario
(3) Objectives? I guess the objectives are clear, but it's not clear where to find the Dwarves and you aren't going to win within the time limit if you don't already know where they are.
(4) Dialog? Good.
(5) Challenges? Surviving, finding the dwarves, playing off the skeletons and trolls against each other with delicate puppetmastering moves.
(6) How fun? (1-10) 7
(7) Changes? Make it easier (less gold to enemies on Nightmare), and tell the player that the Dwarves just might be at the end of the rail line. Weaken the southeast enemy and maybe add water there so that they get to the brown troll leader later.
(8) Restarts? Many losses and restarts from start. No save-reloads.
(9) WML? Well commented.
(10) Replay? Attached. For a general overview and screenshots, see the thread "Stuck on NR: Infested Caves". It's the same replay as the one attached there.
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 2 - Infested Caves

Postby Wesbane » January 30th, 2011, 12:45 am

    1) Level, Version? Nightmare; 1.9.4 (Custom port – Remake)
    2) Difficult? 6 (Default setup 350 starting gold, two peasants in a cave!)
    3) Clear? No. Who is Hamel? You do not know him so it should be death of dwarven leader or leader of dwarfs but not Hamel. Unless his name would be pointed out earlier in the story, but its not.
    4) Dialogue? Good.
    5) Challenges? Of choice no xp for leader and supporter. But I'm rather bad player. Two moments I could lose.
    6) Fun? 10 Great scenario.
    7) Changes? Some hint that tracks may lead to dwarfs would be helpful. But maybe Tallin is such a railman that he should know. Do not make it easier. It will push out all the challenge of it. Players think that it so difficult because of errors they made:
      Superior strategy:

      Unstoppable troops:

      Holy ground:

    Note that making some of this mistakes does not have to lead to ultimate defeat but this only depends on what you do good to compensate and difficulty level you play.
    8) Restarts? Few just to try out that there exist any alternative tactic, but it doesn't. You must get through or optionally on lower difficulty levels take control of main cave to win.
    9) WML? Clear. Simple code. Original have some issues, but it doesn't matter. Although it allow you to cheat.
    Earned or not. Get your gold!:

    10) Replay? Included – backported. Missing custom unit portraits are normal. When you receive out of sync message check ignore all and override game calculation with source data file.
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 2 - Infested Caves

Postby Benefuchs » February 11th, 2011, 1:00 am

(1)challenging, 1.8.5
(2) 9.5
(3) not that clear. (Who's Hamel? Do I have to save him? Are those dwarves already on the map or do they appear when I find their 'entrance'?)
(4) Very cool dialogue, nice atmosphere! However, things aren't quite clear. It might be made clear earlyer that skeletons and trolls fight each other.
(5) Choosing the right strategy. Playing it the first time, this is hardly possible. (Obvious strategies doomed to fail have been described already.)
succesful strategy:

(6) 7
(7)
  • Make it smaller (two trolls two skels instead of three each), turns take really long time.
  • Give some hint where to go, else it gets a bit frustrating. Couldn't Tallin have some crude map of his neighbors' town or something?
  • Might be a bit easier. Maybe a white mage hiding somewhere, e.g. with the other mage.
(If you let green or blue join the battle, brown isn't that underpowerded.)
(8) utter defeat, more than once.
(9) n/a
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 2 - Infested Caves

Postby Ceres » March 28th, 2011, 6:52 pm

1) Level, Version? Normal, 1.9.4
2) Difficulty? 8
3) Clear? Clear, if you played it before. Otherwise, who's Hamel?
4) Dialogue? Nice.
5) Challenges? It's a footpad graveyard now. Also, getting ZoCed in the big chamber.
6) Fun? 6.
7) Changes? Nice as it is.
8) Restarts? Using favourable terrain not correctly with footpads. When I lost 5 per turn, I went back to turn 3 and redid the whole thing.
9) WML? Well commented. Btw you shouldn't put side 6 (trolls) into the "three undead sides" commented part. There's a "three troll sides" part right above.
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 2 - Infested Caves

Postby stargazer » March 28th, 2011, 7:50 pm

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

Nightmare

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

11! The hardest campaign I have ever played in Wesnoth and one of its hardest scenarios!

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear enough

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Interesting enough

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Great number of enemies and too little gold in my hands

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

8

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

I would like to add a couple of freely wandering gnomes whom Tallin could meet near his starting castle to make the mission easier, otherwise the scenario is merely tormenting

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

Choosing and fighting in wrong directions, killing all enemies there but finding no dwarves

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?

I made a glance at the script and I my impression was that it is quite readable and well-commented.
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 2 - Infested Caves

Postby taptap » October 7th, 2011, 12:18 am

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

Swordsman (Difficult). 1.9.9

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

9 - since I was able to finish it (which I didn't manage yet with some later scenarios). I had 610 gold.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Good. The single bat gives you a wrong sense of security - I can deal with a bat and some undead or so I thought...

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Many. Migrating (and getting the idea from this forum), not letting the White skeletons out too early, inability to extract my rearguard

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

10 (Likely one of the most epic scenarios ever.)

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

No changes. Maybe teaching the dwarf to retreat wounded units.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

Many.

1st I tried a static defense, it worked surprisingly well, I took out Blue and Green, but was in no position to get to the dwarves in time. Even when they broke out later in the game the mainhall was flooded with skeletons. Might be possible with longer time limits or a more damage dealing and less safety first approach towards Blue and Green.

2nd I tried varied lock-in (in the chamber to the left) and let the trolls out approaches, however the trolls are easily distracted by my tasty footpads. The best result was that I could break out again, recruit one round more and than migrate toward the Blue trolls cave which I had taken out. However, all this took way too long.

I still believe a lock-in approach might work, but definitely not in the chamber to the left. Maybe you can defend yourself in the passage to Blue, letting Green out. After you break out again, you hopefully can continue recruiting and beating Green way faster.

3rd I went for migration to the brown trolls keep. I didn't keep troops at the top left village. Interestingly my rearguard got butchered between trolls and skeletons leading to Blue and Green units arriving in the main hall together and dominating the skeletons for a long time. They nearly took out the White skeleton.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?

I don't know WML.
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 2 - Infested Caves

Postby GagarinGambit » November 7th, 2011, 1:36 pm

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Difficult, 1.8, 647 starting gold.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
9.9, this is probably the hardest scenario I've ever played.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Unclear. Do you need to find the Dwarfs AND clear the caves, or one of them should do? And who is Hamel?

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
It's not a great piece of writing, but it's fine and clear.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
What wasn't? This scenario is practically unbeatable on your first play. You need knowledge of the map before you can even think of a good strategy. And even then, it requires precise timing; a single error in placing a unit can be very costly.

In particular, it took me three plays to win. During the first I did the obvious thing - fight in the three fronts/paths near the keep. While this way I did beat the two nearby trolls, the skeletons had become so powerful by then that it was stalemate. During the second play I knew I had to let the trolls and the skeletons fight each other, but the plan was executed rather poorly and it was stalemate again. The third play was victorious, although I had to cheat a little. It involved moving away from the keep, towards the trolls on the north, and afterwards at the north skeleton's castle, while the southern skeletons were fighting the southern trolls. It did work - barely. It was frustrating to find out I had defeated the brown skeletons at last and reached the dwarves, but I was two turns short in reaching a dwarfish keep. Instead of replaying, I preferred using the console in order to give my leader the needed movement points.

After looking at the walkthrough, I see that my (barely winning) strategy wasn't standard. It's probably less effective than those suggested there, but I attach a replay for your information.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8. Although in general I dislike playing a scenario more than twice, I enjoyed the challenge.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I would either make it a little easier, eg by giving the eastern trolls more starting gold so they would fare better against the skeletons, or give some strategy hints via the dialogue.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
The "reach a dwarfish keep" objective change was annoying, and it would make me lose hadn't I use the console.
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 2 - Infested Caves

Postby batoonike » March 3rd, 2012, 5:35 pm

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Nightmare, 1.8.6 version though. I hope most of these things have been fixed but:
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
10, most difficult scenario. I started with 728 gold, leader level0 with 50% xp and loyal spearman. I think I restarted or went back 5-10 turns about 30 times before compliting it.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Unclear. I didn't know clearing the cave was optional. I didn't know clearing the cave results in victory and I don't really need to reach the dwarves by end of turns. Also "find the dwarves" says little about actually moving my leader there. What if I find the dwarves 5 turns before turn limit but my leader is at the first keep?

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Clear, interesting.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Back in the days it used to be avoiding stalemate, but currently I think doing all the stuff in turn limit. +15 turns would make it so much easier (which would be bad).
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
10, nice concept, lots of things to do
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Clear objectives, warning when opening up wall sections.
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Well if I didn't know the map I couldn't possibly win the first time because of the very limited turns. Also opening up wall sections from villages is sometimes very annoying, In case the player only has 1 weak scout in this area. There could be a warning and option, if I want to kick the door in or not. Otherwise I restarted mostly in order to try different strategies and avoid some stupid mistakes.
(9) Don't know
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 2 - Infested Caves

Postby taptap » April 28th, 2012, 12:50 pm

One of my favorite scenarios!

I finally sat down to play Northern Rebirth on Royal Guard (Nightmare) difficulty in Wesnoth 1.10.2, 610 gold. My strategy (I learned a lot from many attempts under swordsman (difficult) half a year ago) was the migration strategy with leaving a small force in Camerins village. The first run went somewhat wrong, I made to the brown keep but had to cede it and retreat to the brown "village cave" just before I started to have money to recruit again, interestingly even so I was able to break out again later (at that point my main force was reduced to only 2 outlaws, 1 bandit, Camerin and my two peasants) to recruit again and push through to the dwarves but ending one move short. The second run was a clear win, although I didn't achieve much above the winning conditions and levelling units. I didn't used all my gold not to go too deep into negative upkeep and to be able to recruit again soon at the brown keep. This time the trolls managed - despite me blocking blue reinforcements - to dominate the main hall for the rest of the game - killing White (with help of some brown survivors) and keeping Yellow in the bottleneck. I was in striking distance to the black keep early 20s but then losses mounted (2 outlaws, some thugs) so I had to regroup and finally reached the dwarves keep with only one spare turn. Attempts to regain control of the main hall didn't went so well, in particular a certain troll warrior killed several units (the brown trolls had 77 kills according to the replay) before he fell.

Findings: Poachers are despite troll resistance to pierce surprisingly effective for the task force (I had 7 units in the task force on my second run). Not only do they about the same overall damage as a footie 1vs1 against a whelp, but they do it more concentrated on your turn and they level up faster.

Later: Proudly I present: Infested Caves on Nightmare with three enemy leaders killed (all but the green troll). I guess I am on the right track with the strategy (taking out the only important undead asap, then you happily have 60+ income for some turns before you have to leave. Better players will undoubtedly find many mistakes in micro-management throughout, and when it became obvious that it works I became rather careless and made some more ridiculous moves that I wouldn't if I hadn't already won the scenario several times.

Even later: Another attempt with only 4 (but intelligent) units in Camerins village on nightmare saw bad trolls and gave me much to do with the skeletons - they controlled the central room right away, so I just managed to do the bare minimum and killed the blue troll close to the end. Doing more than winning and maybe killing blue requires you to get past the main hall without major complications so you can get past Black rapidly - without that you simply can't afford the losses.
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 2 - Infested Caves

Postby MetalRocks » July 30th, 2012, 5:25 am

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Difficulty: Nightmare. 702 starting gold.
Version: 1.10.0

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
10

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Very interesting.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Earning a lot of gold for the next scenario. The biggest difficulty resides in that each turn the other sides moves might help you a lot or sink you randomly. You might follow the same strategy twice and the result can be totally different.

The best defending units are footpads with a lot of life (so the better will be resilient and strong footpads, and the worst the quick ones). If you get any unit to have one xp bellow the next level dont level it up, but use it to cover critical points or locations where the unit can be attacked from several sides, as these units are less likely to be attacked unless they can be killed in one attack (usually by a level 2 unit).

Leaving some units in the northwest house (where you find the mage) will make it easier to attack the blue troll leader (not specially useful if you are playing in nightmare as you probably wont make enough money with his villages to make it worth it) as well as giving some exp to your units.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7.

Translation to Castilian (or Spanish if you prefer so).

Traducción a la lengua de Cervantes:

(1) ¿En que nivel de dificultad y versión de Wesnoth has jugado el escenario?
Difficultad: Pesadilla (nightmare). 702 de oro de inicio.
Version: 1.10.0

(2) ¿Qué nivel de dificultad le das al escenario? (1-10)
10

(3) ¿Cómo de claros has encontrado los objetivos del escenario?
Muy claros.

(4) ¿Cómo de claros e interesantes has encontrado los diálogos y la trama del escenario?
Muy interesantes.

(5) ¿Cuales fueron tus principales retos en concluir los objetivos del escenario?
Ganar mucho oro para el próximo escenario. La mayor dificultad reside en que cada turno los movimientos de los otros bandos pueden ayudarte mucho o hundirte aleatoriamente. Puedes seguir la misma estrategia dos veces y el resultado ser completamente diferente.

Las mejores unidades defensivas son los salteadores con mucha vida (así que los mejores serán los resistentes y fuertes y los peores los rápidos). Si consigues alguna unidad a falta de un punto de experiencia para el siguiente nivel no la subas, sino que usala para cubrir puntos críticos o localizaciones donde la unidad puede ser atacada desde varios lados, ya que estas unidades es menos probable que sean atacadas a no ser que puedan ser matadas en un solo ataque (normalmente por unidades de nivel 2).

Dejar algunas unidades en la casa del noroeste (donde encuentras al mago) hará más facil atacar al lider troll azul (aunque no es especialmente util si estás jugando en modo "pesadilla" ya que probablemente no harás suficiente dinero con sus pueblos para que te salga rentable) así como dar algo de experiencia a tus unidades.

(6) ¿Cómo de divertido crees que es el escenario? (1-10)
7.
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 2 - Infested Caves

Postby AxalaraFlame » November 6th, 2012, 3:47 am

Le me be frankly, this scenerio is basically too hard to accomplish properly, unless you try many times, and with luck stands with you.
My version is 1.10.0, difficulty nightmare as usual since it provides general strategies. It is hard due to these aspects:
1. It is insanely hard to break through trolls and undead to reach the dwarf, so seeing the dwarf is unrealistic. Unless, you save and load many times and willing not to be morally damaged, losing too many units within a short turn
2. It is insanely hard to kill all enemies within turn limits.

I made it without S/L, but still slicely RNG addvantage (that day sucks, but I suck my luck back in wesnoth :D ), with 44/45 turns, in which situation the bonus is nearly nothing for me.
9ec4050828381f304b6ccf5ba9014c086f06f032.jpg
This is the situation. There is great losses of troppers in the process and great losses of oppounities as well.

My suggestion to balance this campaign is to buff the middle troll's income to the same level as undead do, thus they stand langer and damage skeletons more, make it slicely easier for us to clear the cave.
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Re: Scenario Review: NR 2 - Infested Caves

Postby Speedbrain » November 6th, 2012, 4:40 pm

AxalaraFlame wrote:This scenerio is basically too hard to accomplish...
My version is 1.10.0, difficulty nightmare
:lol2:
Just saying.
You also said you beat it without save/loading one turn before the limit. Sure you needed a little luck, but on nightmare difficulty, it sounds like it might be just fine.
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