Scenario Review: Liberty 8 - Glory

Feedback for the mainline campaign Liberty.

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chak_abhi
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Re: Scenario Review: Liberty 8 - Glory

Post by chak_abhi » August 28th, 2010, 3:27 pm

Thanks for the replay.It was pretty good.I don't mind losing units in the final scenario,even if they are L3s.
However I find that there is always a fair bit of luck involved.Whenever I played,Helicrom's forces went straight at the orcs instead of going anywhere near the fortress.Moreover the most vulnerable units,i.e the members of the footpad line couldn't hold their ground even for a single turn despite having defences of 60% or 70%.The wolf rider attacking the north gate at the beginning is also vital,if it can survive for 1 turn it can totally change the subsequent events at the north gate.
Anyway,thanks again.I will try this myself sometime later.

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Pewskeepski
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Re: Scenario Review: Liberty 8 - Glory

Post by Pewskeepski » December 30th, 2010, 7:00 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Normal, 1.9.3 (340 gold)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
6, Helicrom helped me. If he hadn't it would have been an 8

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
You have to read the dialog to know 'how' you destroy it (But your suppose to read it, So it's clear)

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Great, But there should be some dialog when Dommels reinforcements arrive. They should say something like "What the? Halstead is under attack!? We must stop them!" or something like that.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Harper says we'll attack at night time, But I arrived at Halsteads gates in the morning. So I got chopped down

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8, I love all the army's engaging each other in the middle!

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Scenario is OK

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
No

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
When a unit from team 1,4, or 5 steps in the middle of the fortress, Dommel is suppose to say "They have breached the fortress gate! Repulse them!" but he didn't when Helicrom moved a fugitive there :hmm:

BubbleScreen
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Re: Scenario Review: Liberty 8 - Glory

Post by BubbleScreen » January 15th, 2011, 4:05 am

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.6, Medium

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario?
10 relative to the other scenarios in Liberty, but relative to everything else out there, 6

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear, though I didn't realize my units would reappear immediately after going down the trap doors.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Fantastic setup, and a novel premise. I liked Harper's death scene (thanks for letting him get a dramatic death). But as Gerion notes, why did they just leave? Baldras now commands a sizable army, one which seems to be able to strike with devastating force and dissipate on command. The loss of Halstead (and Maddock's raids) have spooked Asheviere's forces. Your hometown just got destroyed, and you just run away? I know, I know, we have to set the stave for Konrad's big campaign, it's just a little disappointing.
Speaking of HttT, great way to set up Isle of the Damned - the outlaws are the heirs to the survivors lead by Relnan.
Also, more dialogue from the reinforcements and Dommel. And Helicrom. And Sir whats-his-name, the Paladin.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Getting my footpads in range of trap doors, distracting the bad guys.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is?
Hm. 8 - Novel concept, great dialogue, Harper's death, huge chaotic epic battleground, but too easy for the final battle. Helicrom's troops occupied the southern gate for five or six turns and generally made fools of the Loyalists. The Elensefar lancers took out at least half of Dommel's forces on their own, and helped pull units away from the trap doors.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
- Prevent Helicrom's and the Orc's troops from attacking each other.
- Difficulty increase (for a difficulty rating named "Medium," it's too easy)
- Dialogue changes as mentioned above

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
No

WanderingHero
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Re: Scenario Review: Liberty 8 - Glory

Post by WanderingHero » June 16th, 2011, 12:55 pm

(1) Hard, 1.8.5
(2) 4. And I didn't even have that much gold, though I did have Helicorm with me. Honestly this was probably too easy for a final scenario.
(3) At first I thought I was supposed to kill the leader, but i took a proper look at the objectives and the map and I understood
(4) Not bad but I wished for a somewhat happier ending. Is this scenario tied into the story of another campaign? Btw does having Harper alive affect the scenario? he ended up dying when his 70% evasion failed him
(5) Lots of enemy troops, suppressing my instinct to rush them down, and instead bait them out and pick them off.
(6) 8. It genuinely qualifies as epic, its very different, aesthetically pleasing, has genuinely strategic/puzzle difficulty. but its just a bit too easy for a final scenario. I won on my second try. Cool idea though, and decent execution.
(7) Moar enemies I guess.
(8) Pretty much my own carelessness

podbelski
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Re: Scenario Review: Liberty 8 - Glory

Post by podbelski » June 29th, 2011, 3:14 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.9.6, Hard, 243gp, no reloads. Helicrom is helping me.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8-to-9 as is, depends on how good and sane your allies and orcs will behave. Constant clashes of Helicrom vs Orcs is the biggest annyance IMO, it's not fun to see Helicrom chasing trolls far away instead of helping me bash through castle defence. Also, b/c of those clashes, you have to be furtunate to blow the SE corner before reinforcements arrive.

On a modified map (see below) I think it's 7-to-8, depends on how fortunate you will be. I like it.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
realizing that enemy forces overwhelm me, so I have to use distract/sneak tactics to reach those trapsdoors. Quick footpads is the best choice for this task.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
without annoying Helicrom vs Orcs battles, it's really fun. Probably "9".

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Helicrom must avoid ties with Orcs. I thought about putting his starting fort in the SW, but finally modified scenario file (set Orcs vs Helicrom aggression to 0.3) and it worked well. Not 100% sure it was not a pure coincedence though.

Also, blue regiments hanging at the east gate look somewhat silly, I'm not sure what could (and should?) be done about this (see the screenshot). As is, the only problem they impose is it becomes really really hard to blow SE corner after they reach the gates.

Finally, Rogue and Shadow Mages suck hard in this campaign. They are awful vs undead b/c of blade+cold attack types, and you have no good opportunity to level them up to be really useful in the final battle. The AI prefers to recruit Outlaws, and it's a sane decision.
These mages should have some way to deal with undead reasonably (add fire attack?). Probably this will make the AI recruit them during the "Gray Woods" scenario, so their presence in the campaign will be kind of meaningful. In the Glory scenario, there should be 2-3 shadow mages as well, either given or recruited.

Below are two replays, first one played on the original map (as you see I've got lucky to reach SE trapdoor, if I miss this single opportunity I could not win the scenario). The second replay is on a modified scenario, I reduced Orcs vs Helicrom aggression to 0.3, looks like they chase each other only on occassion, which is good.
Attachments
Glory - regiment.jpg
wtf are these guys doing here?
Liberty-Glory_replay_modified.gz
Replay on a modified map
(54.17 KiB) Downloaded 231 times
Liberty-Glory_replay.gz
Original map replay
(56.29 KiB) Downloaded 257 times
Last edited by podbelski on September 9th, 2011, 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ayearhasgone
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Re: Scenario Review: Liberty 8 - Glory

Post by ayearhasgone » July 12th, 2011, 5:28 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.85 Normal
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
7
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Somewhat clear... going into each of the four towers instead of just killing the enemy leader was different. Became clearer after the first tower
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
It was the usual jabber
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Waiting for an opening in the tower(s) and rushing a unit accordingly. Also watching your allies and using their moves to your advantage, e.g. letting Helicrom's men clog the south gate. I had a little trouble because Helicrom insisted on fighting orcs more than the loyalist garrison, but the pitched battle on the east side of the map clogged the reinforcements that arrived on the first afternoon.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
10. One of my favorites.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Not that I can think of
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
The column of reinforcements smashed through Helicrom's men and trapped me inside Halstead the first time around. It was a slow, ugly massacre.
(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
Don't know WMl

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powershot
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Re: Scenario Review: Liberty 8 - Glory

Post by powershot » July 12th, 2011, 6:50 pm

Content Feedback wrote:(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
1(1.9.5) -easy
2: 3-4
3: Simple and understood.
4: Great story, hope they make a sequel.
5:Disarming the guards and the large amount of units.
6: 7
7: A bit harder of enemies.
8: Death of experienced units.
9: Clear and perfecto.
My new account is: Power_Pixel_Wannabe. Yea. Yea.... Why are you still reading this? What the heck m8? You have some kind of problem? Yea. I draw. NO I'M NOT 5 ANYMORE!!! Little brats.
The heck m8? I thought you left... No seriously... go... serious...
ok bye m8. I'm serious.

scott
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Re: Scenario Review: Liberty 8 - Glory

Post by scott » August 21st, 2011, 10:11 am

It took a long time to dial back the difficulty just enough to avoid the whole thing becoming an unwinnable cluttered morass, so it was supposed to have a slight easy bias, but not too much so. I wonder if this scenario fell out of balance over time with changes to the default behavior of the AI or unit balancing. I haven't really kept up with things.
Hope springs eternal.
Wesnoth acronym guide.

podbelski
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Re: Scenario Review: Liberty 8 - Glory

Post by podbelski » August 27th, 2011, 4:28 pm

scott wrote:It took a long time to dial back the difficulty just enough to avoid the whole thing becoming an unwinnable cluttered morass, so it was supposed to have a slight easy bias, but not too much so. I wonder if this scenario fell out of balance over time with changes to the default behavior of the AI or unit balancing. I haven't really kept up with things.
ugh sorry can't really understand what are you talking about here - the scenario has been updated recently?

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Great_Mage_Atari
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Re: Scenario Review: Liberty 8 - Glory

Post by Great_Mage_Atari » August 27th, 2011, 4:33 pm

Seemed pretty clear to me...

podbelski
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Re: Scenario Review: Liberty 8 - Glory

Post by podbelski » August 27th, 2011, 4:42 pm

I just don't see any difference between my 1.9.6 and 1.9.8...

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PorkSol
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Re: Scenario Review: Liberty 8 - Glory

Post by PorkSol » September 9th, 2011, 2:56 am

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on? Hardest available, 1.9.8, no save load, 352 starting gp
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10) 4. I accepted the Shadow Mage's help for the final battle. All the AI allies were very helpful, as were the orcs, so perhaps I got lucky there. (I set them both to attack the general, defensive)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives? Just fine.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario? It was awesome, although it did feel like the tower was a bit rickety if a beat up footpad could collapse it. Maybe the heroes need some blasting powder or something?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario? Breaking through the South and West gates.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10) 8. It would be 9 but the AI opponent sent a number of his guys outside of the fort and didn't man all the chokepoints. I really enjoyed the way it was designed otherwise, it's pretty unique.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun? Get the AI to stay in place a little better, but it's still fine as is.
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario? Nope.
Attachments
Liberty-Glory_replay.gz
Hardest available, 1.9.8, no save load,
(52.89 KiB) Downloaded 219 times

podbelski
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Re: Scenario Review: Liberty 8 - Glory

Post by podbelski » September 9th, 2011, 12:08 pm

@PorkSol,

definitely looks much easier, b/c of more starting gold, good allies' behaviour, and orcs' lucky poisoning. I watched your replay, but tbh it feels like "6" to me, not "4".

I replayed the scenario several times, and always Helicrom was rushing to the eastern gate, not southern... I even end up tweaking the scenario. Not sure why it worked for you better, seems the only difference is you were issuing "commands for ally"? I've tried them in several other scenarios, and always had a feeling this feature simply does not work, what do you think?

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PorkSol
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Re: Scenario Review: Liberty 8 - Glory

Post by PorkSol » September 9th, 2011, 10:56 pm

podbelski wrote:@PorkSol,
definitely looks much easier, b/c of more starting gold, good allies' behaviour, and orcs' lucky poisoning. I watched your replay, but tbh it feels like "6" to me, not "4".
I could definitely see it rising to at least a 5 if the AI misbehaved, and a 6 if they misbehaved badly. But I only played the one run and so I gave it a four because I won on the first try with a lot of forces to spare. I mark the difficulty down a bit because it is a final mission and you don't have to conserve veteran units.
podbelski wrote: I replayed the scenario several times, and always Helicrom was rushing to the eastern gate, not southern... I even end up tweaking the scenario. Not sure why it worked for you better, seems the only difference is you were issuing "commands for ally"? I've tried them in several other scenarios, and always had a feeling this feature simply does not work, what do you think?
I'm not really sure if the command ally feature works or not, as I've only used it in a few earlier scenarios in this campaign and in those the AI allies were pretty weak, so not many units survived long enough for the feature to take effect. The only other scenario in this campaign where the allied AI formed an effective force was in the Grey Woods, but I don't remember if I commanded them or not in that scenario.

However, there is one difference that I forgot to mention that might also contribute to different AI performance:

Supposedly there is a bug in 1.9 which prevents the AI from using the full recruitment list set up in the scenario.
(report is here: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=32939 )

I used the suggested fix, editing Wesnoth 1.9.8\data\ai\utils\default_config.cfg
and setting
{DEFAULT_ASPECT_VALUE recruitment_ignore_bad_combat no}
{DEFAULT_ASPECT_VALUE recruitment_ignore_bad_movement no}
to
{DEFAULT_ASPECT_VALUE recruitment_ignore_bad_combat yes}
{DEFAULT_ASPECT_VALUE recruitment_ignore_bad_movement yes}

So it may not be a coincidence that the AI Shadow Mage ally in my game recruited a mixed group of units and the AI in your game (at least on the replay you posted) recruited all fugitives. And presumably a different mix of units could effect what the AI chooses to target, especially considering that the mixed units were slower than a pack of fugitives.

podbelski
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Re: Scenario Review: Liberty 8 - Glory

Post by podbelski » September 11th, 2011, 10:03 pm

ok thanks for the info, I really was upset with how the AI ignores recruitment list...

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