South Guard 9a - Vengeance

Feedback for the mainline campaign The South Guard.

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DLull
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Re: South Guard 9a - Vengeance

Post by DLull » April 8th, 2008, 12:30 am

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Easy, 1.4

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
10, before figuring out how to win.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Not very until I started getting units killed and realized this was necessary to advance the level.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
It was clear, but not interesting enough for the final mission. And having the elves turn on you after fighting together for several missions is not a good thing. Since elves are generally regarded as the least war-like and most intelligent race, you'd think they would at least listen to what you and the druid have to say, before deciding to just slaughter everyone in their path.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Having to restart the scenario once I realized what the actual winning objective was.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
2

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Change the objectives and storyline. The idea of trying to defend Westin against a massive siege is cool, but maybe that's all it should be - sort of like a hold out for X number of turns until reinforcements arrive kind of mission. As it stands, once you realize that all you need to do to win is just restart the scenario and rush to the end point, it is rather anti-climactic. All in all, I basically agree with many of the other posts already made.

But all that aside, the rest of the campaign was awesome, so kudos for that. It just needs a final scenario that provides a more satisfying battle and ending.

Rogrog
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Re: South Guard 9a - Vengeance

Post by Rogrog » April 14th, 2008, 11:49 am

I'm repeating what others have already said, but I figure I might as well join the chorus.

1. Hard 1.4.1

2. 10 if you actually try to fight (nearly impossible), about 2 or 3 if you use the technique of just throwing your units as a distraction to the north and south, and just walk the Elf into the marked spot.

3. Clear.

4. Not very interesting, I don't buy the elves attacking you quite like that - not after what's gone on in this campaign.

5. Well, it took me two tries before I got the distraction strategy down, but other than that it wasn't that challanging, just annoying.

6. 3 - It's a huge anticlimax to the campaign. You just move your units to the north and south, and run Ethiliel to the Elf base. Congratulations, you won in three turns without really doing much (no big end fight or anything), without it making that much sense in the context of the story.

7. SmokemJags and others have already pointed out several ways of improving this scenario. Honestly, I agree with them and think that it should be altered pretty radically in order for it to be an appropriate end to the campaign.

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beetlenaut
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Re: South Guard 9a - Vengeance

Post by beetlenaut » November 20th, 2008, 12:23 pm

This is how I played this level:
The first time, I recruited a bunch of high-level units, and began to defend against the elves. I knew the objective ("Keep the elves from sacking Westin") was garbage, so I was waiting for the real one to appear. (I think it would be even more frustrating for a beginning player.) I waited 15 turns! I was getting very bored. I started killing elves to see what would happen, and in the end I just didn't care any more, so I finally lost a unit--I could have played much longer before that happened if I had continued to be careful. Finally, I got the real objective, but by then it was too late. There were too many elves.

I started again. This time I recruited a few high-level units, and one spearman. His job was to die as soon as possible. I suicided him on turn 3, and put a couple blocking units up. Then I breezed Ethiliel to the tree with no opposition, winning on turn 5.

Frustrating, to frustratingly easy.

There should be a turn limit (four at the most) by which time, even if you haven't lost a unit, you get the real objectives. Also, the first objectives should give you something clear to do or prevent: "Defeat: An enemy enters your castle." or something like that.
Campaigns: Dead Water,
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Iah
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Re: South Guard 9a - Vengeance

Post by Iah » November 23rd, 2008, 12:21 am

(1) Hard, last version
(2) 1, Ethiliel was level 3 so she was very quick and could pass everywhere. I can get to the tree very fast, I just blocked the elves with soldiers-punching bags. :mrgreen:
(3) They were clear enough.
(4) The dialogs waren't very interrestesting. Also, I only got the first dialog where the elf kills the peasent, I diden't have a dialog after finishing the mission, is it normal?
(5) The fact that there is too much elve and they respawnd just next to the tree.
(6) 5, it has some potential, but they are some things that must be corrected.
(7) 1 Correct the cut-scene.
At the beggining, they was an elf asking for help, and a peasant ran towards the elf, to get killed. :mrgreen: I think it must be reversed...

2 Add dialogs when the mission is over.
Something like "Our master became evil wasen't him anymore etc." is better than nothing.

3 Correct an annoying bug. If you put Ethiliel on the tree before one of your soldiers get killed, whe says "I feel like I belong on this spot" , but you don't win the scenario. Then, even if you put her somewere else and you come back to the tree, it's impossible to win the scenario.

4 Put a lot of reinforcments, but not infinite!
It would be much more realistic if they was an elf for each elf that's killed, but only a limited numbers. Like after 40 elves killed, I think they lurned their lesson...

5 Make them respawnd in another place.
It's pretty anoying to see them revive 3 hexes next to the tree!

6 Improvise something interresting.
It's quite annoying to just put some "punching bags" to distract the elves and move Ethiliel to the tree, we must add something new to that scenario. :hmm:

Conclusion, this scenario has some potential but is pretty uninterresting for now because of the reasons I writted before.

AI
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Re: South Guard 9a - Vengeance

Post by AI » November 23rd, 2008, 2:40 am

Iah wrote: 3 Correct an annoying bug. If you put Ethiliel on the tree before one of your soldiers get killed, whe says "I feel like I belong on this spot" , but you don't win the scenario. Then, even if you put her somewere else and you come back to the tree, it's impossible to win the scenario.
Fixed in r30996, the fix will be in 1.5.7.

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Turuk
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Re: South Guard 9a - Vengeance

Post by Turuk » December 17th, 2008, 7:07 am

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Soldier (Normal) 1.5.6

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8. I came in with my recall list full of level 3's, and the gold to bring them back, but that was not the issue. The elves are easy to handle, but when killing one spawns 1-3, that adds up rather quickly. So I stopped killing elves, but they will then attack you and you inevitably kill them. It reaches a point very quickly where it is impossible to break the line and reach the tree.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Crystal, kill the elves then change to reach the bloody tree.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Crystal, and I can make assumptions about why the elf is mad, but it does not really fit with the usual staid nature of elves, and it seems as if he just jumps to conclusions and attacks.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
NOT killing the elves so that I could get Ethiliel to the tree.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7. Despite the difficulty, the fun of just wading through tons of enemies and cutting them down (even if by this point, you cannot win) is good fun.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Leave as it is, but maybe make it so the elves will not stand on the hex with the tree on it.


Found an error in this scenario, where if Ethiliel is killed, it does not end the scenario.
Mainline Maintainer: AOI, DM, NR, TB and THoT.
UMC Maintainer: Forward They Cried, A Few Logs, A Few More Logs, Start of the War, and Battle Against Time

AI
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Re: South Guard 9a - Vengeance

Post by AI » December 19th, 2008, 8:32 pm

Fixed in r31561.

doctoryes
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Re: South Guard 9a - Vengeance

Post by doctoryes » March 19th, 2009, 7:19 am

This was recommended as a good first campaign. I enjoyed it and did learn to play the game by playing through it. I was completely stumped by Vengeance though, causing me to google a walkthrough, which led me to these forums.

I have to say, I'm glad I didn't take the time to figure out the end-around solution myself. As lame as this ending is, it would have been much worse if it had taken me a couple of hours to get to the big forehead-slap moment.

Daedal
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Re: South Guard 9a - Vengeance

Post by Daedal » March 28th, 2009, 3:26 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Soldier (Normal) 1.4.5

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
10, 1

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear, except that the stated objective isn't the real objective. The real objective is "Lose one unit so Ethiliel will decide to have peace talks with the elves." If this isn't even hinted at, there's no way to beat the scenario the first time through.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Clear, but not interesting. Why all this pissing and moaning when I just cleared the forest of undead?

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Playing through the scenario once so I could figure out what I needed to do.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
1.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Killing the ancient lich should be the end of the campaign. The last few scenarios just feel like a slap in the face.

Jonnan
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Joined: March 29th, 2009, 5:14 am

Re: South Guard 9a - Vengeance

Post by Jonnan » March 29th, 2009, 5:45 am

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
1.4.5 (Ubuntu) Easy
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
Like a lot of people, horrendously difficult, then easy
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Unclear. Complying with the 'initial' mission will create odds that are overwhelming by the time you find out the actual objective.
If you are playing in character (And for me, this is something of an RPG, in the 'Chainmail' sense) then the scenario is impossible to complete without out-of-character knowledge.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Annoying. A single person going 'bad' in the sense of the sage taking on undeath out of pain and anger is an interesting bit of writing.
An entire nation going insane at once out of grief for the death of a great man, can be an interesting bit of writing - See "The Battle of the Line" from B5.
An entire nation going insane out of grief, ignoring the testimony of it's own members that were actually there, and then proceeding to completely ignore the basic fundamentals of the game logistics because the GM has one and only one solution to the scenario, which involves completely ignoring all previous game logic or internal history, throw out a sacrificial lamb, while abandoning your post, because you've played the scenario three times now and the normal logic no longer applies, is *not* an interesting bit of writing.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Bad writing
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10); 1
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Rewrite the scenario completely. Give some cues in previous scenarios that this situation has been building - there are certainly opportunities to allude to it as far back as 'A choice in the fog'. Create at least one scenario prior to this that give the opportunity to either face a single grieving madman, or an entire outraged Elven Nation. Basically, make it feasible to win without dropping character.

I feel obligated to add - it wouldn't have been nearly as frustrating except the scenarios had good writing, right till here - you could play Deoran as a character, and it was rather jarring to suddenly be faced with a scenario where the answer is to 'cheat' with out of character knowledge.

Warmskin
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Re: South Guard 9a - Vengeance

Post by Warmskin » April 7th, 2009, 11:41 pm

Where/when does it inform you that you have to move Ethiliel to the tree? I see no oval and 'X' to mark anything like this on the map. Am I supposed to have her talk to someone in the advancing cadre of Elves? This was a really good campaign for someone just learning the game and I enjoyed it immensely, but this last scenario should have given me a clue *what* I was supposed to do. Or did I just not wait long enough for something to 'trigger'? Anyway, a huge let-down...

Warmskin
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Re: South Guard 9a - Vengeance

Post by Warmskin » April 8th, 2009, 2:17 am

Replying to my own msg:
I just went back to try the scenario again and this time after the first turn I got the msg about sending her to the tree and the 'marker' showed up. I don't know if it was a bug or what, but as I was saying in my earlier post, I rec'd no msg of any kind for the first 5 or 6 moves before. Might want to look into that. Thanks...
Last edited by Warmskin on April 20th, 2009, 4:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

Matija
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Re: South Guard 9a - Vengeance

Post by Matija » April 12th, 2009, 12:48 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
1. Easy, v1.6.0
2. First try: 10. Second try: 1.
3. Unclear.
4. Uninteresting. It made absolutely no sense.
5. Like most people, I tried fighting. Slowly crept forward, preserved my units, and when I finally realized that elves *multiply* when killed, it was too late to do anything. The entire left part of the map was full of them. I had to quit and start from turn 1. After starting fresh, I recruited a bowman, let it die immediately, and then just moved the elven girl to the tree. Over on turn 4, I think.
6. Not fun. From 1-10, I give it a 0.
7. Remove it from the game. It's just... stupid.

chennai
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Joined: April 19th, 2009, 7:02 pm

Re: South Guard 9a - Vengeance

Post by chennai » April 19th, 2009, 7:21 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
1. Difficult 1.6
2. 10. Nearly impossible and then easy.
3. This is the problem. The first goal - defend Wesnoth from being sacked - is more or less a fib. There is no reward for preventing the sacking of Wesnoth. The elves aren't interested in sacking the city; they are interested in killing off your guys and defending the tree. (Sometimes they seem intent on being killed themselves.) So a typical player prepares for a siege and doesn't learn until later that preparing for a siege is a huge mistake - perhaps the most counter-productive strategy one could employ.

I don't have a problem with the "solution" not being obvious. I think that's rather fun. But it only works for me, if I goofed it up myself. That's not the way this plays. Here, the goal of the first part - as stated by the game itself - is not a goal; it's a trap. The game tells me to do one thing to win but I really should do something else.

The problem is aggravated, I think, because this campaign is recommended for beginners.

4. I agree with the above comments. The storyline seems odd, and the resolution - a new Cold War - wasn't very satisfying.

5-6. See above. I will admit that I played the scenario about 10 times looking for a solution before I hit on it. When I figured out the key, I solved it again, in four turns, without recalling or recruiting any units. Rather than laughing at my silliness, which I might do if I had blundered without help, I was disappointed and frustrated: I wasted so much time because I believed the first objective.

7. Making the actual goal clear at the beginning would help. Most players, I believe, would goof it up without the "push" of the first, sham "goal."

Unless you make the elves evil or enchanted or something, the premise is unpleasant and the resolution unsatisfying. I hated seeing the peasant killed for no reason.

I enjoyed most of the rest of the campaign. Thanks.

jean-luc
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Re: South Guard 9a - Vengeance

Post by jean-luc » April 21st, 2009, 3:41 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Easy. 1.6.1
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
10 and 1

10 : impossible to win, until you have the trick (send directly Ethiliel to the tree, and a spearman in the south to be killed). In this case you finish the scenario in 4 turns.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
The objectives are clear but due to the multiplication of the ennemy, they are contradictory. If you respect the first objective, there is to much ennemy to win the second one.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Ok
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Understanding the trick.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
1 because of what I wrote before.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
2 choices :

1) remove the scenario and finish with the previous one

2) keep it but put the tree on the right of the map along with some elves but multiply only the elves on the left part.
With this, the player should stop the invasion from the left while trying to send Ethiliel to the right. If you increase the size of the map and add the second objective early, it could be an interesting challenge.

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