South Guard 7a. Into the Depths

Feedback for the mainline campaign The South Guard.

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podbelski
Posts: 151
Joined: June 7th, 2011, 8:35 pm

Re: South Guard 7a. Into the Depths

Post by podbelski »

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
1.9.6, top difficulty, 328gp

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
7

The biggest challenge was Wraiths, they were really hard to kill in a cave, with some luck to undead could have lost Ethiliel twice. Should have used my mage for this task, I was simply caught off guard by their toughness. Also, I underestimated the power of Soulless in the caves, so lost a loyal pikeman, but whatever.

Killing the Lich is always a tricky fight for me, reloaded once b/c didn't want to lose my Netcaster (he didn't help in the end anyway, and I never used him later).

Also, I had not enough gold to pay the trolls, but decided to see what happens if I try anyway. They said come back later, and strangely I didn't find how to start the dialogue once I've got enough gold. So had to kill everyone by myself.


finished in turn 32/40, 2 losses 33 kills

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8, it's great

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
great as is
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Last edited by podbelski on September 3rd, 2011, 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Allan
Posts: 1
Joined: August 29th, 2011, 7:19 am

Re: South Guard 7a. Into the Depths

Post by Allan »

Content Feedback wrote:(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Normal, 1.8.6
Content Feedback wrote:(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
NAN (overflowed after +inf)
Content Feedback wrote:(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very clear.
Content Feedback wrote:(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
All clear, and interesting as usual.
Content Feedback wrote:(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Its the combination of causes and effects:
I started the scenario allied with the Elves and with minimum gold. I spent it for feeding my army and buying them woolen socks to survive the yomp through the frozen undead in the frozen forests scenario.
So i had not enougth financial resources to both hiring enough troups to get to the trolls and paying that Trolls to help me. So i had to do it without the trolls. But at least i led neutral units into the battle against the eternal evil.
In the pitch black dungeon i led the mage illuminate the the front line to aid the elves' fighting and used it for disposing the wraiths. And there were wraiths. A lot of them. Not that there were more than two at once. But the joint forces of the army of darkness had it all in sufficient numbers: A throng of zombies and skeletons, Wraiths, Vampire bats - i was luky, the water was not deep enough for carriers and dreadnoughts...
I managed to slay em all in an epic battle constantly (yes, literally) reloading to keep my men alive. As my troups are not only poor fighters (the woolen socks sadly did not help), but get paid by hour too - the time limit became so bad a problem, that i had to edit the savegame (well, thanks to the developers, that was an easy task) to be able to win (not that i really wanted to win it any more, but i do not know how to just skip levels).

So in short: Low gold -> No troll support; Huge army of darkness + Really slow movement -> Not enough turns.
Content Feedback wrote:(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
It has the potential to be an Eight. But i think, i can not fairly rate it if i got so desperate to cheat to just get rid of it...
Content Feedback wrote:(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
As the low gold was the initial cause of all problems, i recommend increasing it. But then you still have to play it twice to learn, that you have to keep 200 of it for the trolls (that is only true for players without a crystal ball and the secret knowledge to use it properly). So add a clear hint regarding that unexpected requirement too.
Increasing the turn limit, or cranking down the evil army a bit, is not a bad idea too. If possible, the terrain movement cost could be adjusted to more sane amounts instead of increasing the turn limit.

P.S.: The corrupted elf sage (also known as "The Lich") could be a bit harder to kill. After slaying his insane horde of all the hell has to offer, disposing himself fell like taking candy from a baby.
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Pewskeepski
Posts: 378
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Location: An icy dungeon beneath Antarctica

Re: South Guard 7a. Into the Depths

Post by Pewskeepski »

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Version 1.9.9, Normal difficulty.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
7. I actually lost in this one, and had to restart.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Good, but it seemed a bit weird that the troll instantly asks "Why shouldn't we kill you?"

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The first time I played, I recruited/recalled a bunch of units and was left with about 100 gold. This made me have to wait until my gold went up before I could get the trolls help. I consequently lost due to the death Ethiliel. The second time, I made sure I had two-hundred gold by the time I reached the trolls, and it was smooth sailing from there. I sent a spearman to blow up the wall, thinking I would need it, and it turned out that I didn't. But in the end, it was sorta worth it 'cause the spearman killed a deathblade a got some good XP :)

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
5. The trolls make it easy. Without them though, it can be pretty hard.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Can't think of anything.

(8) How well done did you find the map for the scenario?
Great.
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SBak
Posts: 78
Joined: October 8th, 2011, 1:36 am

Re: South Guard 7a. Into the Depths

Post by SBak »

Content Feedback wrote:(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Easy.
Content Feedback wrote:(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
I give this a 6-7 due to the problems, the reduced movement and various other issues.
Content Feedback wrote:(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
It takes time to work it all out.
Content Feedback wrote:(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
This is where for me it starts going pear-shaped. Is this the real Mal M'Brin? I can never work this out.
Content Feedback wrote:(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
This was a learning curve if ever there was one in a campaign.

You enter the cave with reduced movement and units unfit for fighting undead in caves. You meet almost immediately this Eyestalk character which is lvl3 and drains (it's as bad as, if not worse than the lich) and as you're dealing with that - and God help you if you don't have at least a couple of swordsmen, longbowmen or a lvl3 Master Bowman or Royal Guard - you have this psychotic Revenant whacking your units with an axe. Forget about Ethillel or Minister Hylas, as you will end up in defeat.

I also cannot work out why all of a sudden it takes two Master Bowmen AND a longbowman to take out a lvl1 ghoul. Just because it's in a cave?

I need at least 6 turns to reach the trolls because having seen the map it would take forever unless you have 'quick' units. If you pay the trolls don't make the mistake of capturing their villages, because their help and support ceases soon afterwards. You thus have three maybe four villages, which puts pressure on you to finish early.

I don't have the same problems as others seem to have with the lich. Attack in numbers with 2-3 lvl3 units and Minister Hylas. My problem is the entry to the chamber after you've detonated the bomb. Your units can only move a few hexes, and there is only one space into the chamber. Bear in mind you have a lich which can recruit skeletons which can get to you in one turn. You either have to wait until the trolls have cleared their way through the undead to reach the chamber because of the fog (fog in a cave is a new one for me) which can take up any number of turns or you have to wait for the skeletons to come out.
Content Feedback wrote:(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
I give this a 2-3 because you're not fighting on a level playing field and it's all just overkill. Compared with earlier scenarios this is a disappointment.
Content Feedback wrote:(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
It's hard to say because what is a really good campaign is going downhill fast. I would change the layout of the caves and make it easier to enter Mal M'Brin's chamber.
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taptap
Posts: 980
Joined: October 6th, 2011, 5:42 pm

Re: South Guard 7a. Into the Depths

Post by taptap »

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?

Soldier (hardest difficulty = normal), Version 1.9.9

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

4 (without the trolls)

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

I didn't need the trolls. Make hiring trolls optional and declare it as option in the objectives, I felt I have to hire them, which is such a waste of gold, they didn't take part in the fight at all.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Good.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

None. I nearly lost one of the loyal longbows - but that would not have mattered at all.

I had 320 starting gold and recalled 13 units (2 sorceresses, 2 longbows, 2 swordsman, 1 royal guard... even loyal spearman and a loyal peasant), it could be difficult if you can't get past the bottlenecks and the eyestalk fast enough and the undead reinforcements keep you busy. But with a good mixture of unit, incl. enough slowing for the l2 skeletons and magical ranged for the l2 ghosts and blades for the eyestalk, it is easy.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

7 - I like it, it is a novice campaign after all. Suitable main enemy for such a campaign. + The eyestalk is amazing (strong ranged drain, yeah! - but easy to cut down with blades since it doesn't move).

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Make hiring trolls optional (and make this clear in the objectives).

More cave terrain to slow down non-flying elves.

(8) How well done did you find the map for the scenario?

Pretty good, but still too suitable for elves. (You get the wrong impression that you can fight with elves in caves.)
I am a Saurian Skirmisher: I'm a real pest, especially at night.
Gerion
Posts: 49
Joined: March 28th, 2010, 11:01 am

Re: South Guard 7a. Into the Depths

Post by Gerion »

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Hardest, 1.8.6

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
Oddly enough, after reading the other comments, i thought it is quite easy, maybe a 5 or 6. I never even recruited the Trolls because it was unneccessary. Maybe because it was obvious very early that you will fight primarily against undead and so i had nearly only Swordsmen and nearly no units with piercing damage.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear enough

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Clear enough and interesting enough, especially the dialogue between Elithiel and MalM'brin

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
1. Keeping an eye on all fronts because of the many possibilities the enemy can attack from. After the first 2 or 3 encounters i progressed enough in the caves to block most passages and the enemy only had 2 ways left to attack.
2. Dark Adepts. They can hurt quite a bit when able to attack, but they are not able to kill high level units in one attack (and since the passages are narrow enough to keep the units well protected it was possible to change the wounded units against fresh ones without losing even one of them)

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7. Quite fun!

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Can't think of something changeworthy... Maybe removing the Trolls. It is a bit weird to find a tribe of neutral Trolls in the center of the stronghold of a mighty Lich
The Trolls are unneccessary anyway. If you are unskiled they could be quite helpful i think, but if you are unskilled it is not very likely that you have enough gold to pay them anyway... i did not because i recruited all that was possible. Later i had enough but at this point i was close enough to killing the Lich so that i could simply ignore the Trolls and keep more gold for the next scenario
foresto
Posts: 1
Joined: January 6th, 2012, 7:38 am

Re: South Guard 7a. Into the Depths

Post by foresto »

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?

Soldier (highest dificulty), version 1.8.6.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

10

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Mostly clear. I was instructed to find the source of the undead, which I did, but the scenario apparently doesn't actually end until I kill the source of the undead, which is a different matter entirely.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Reasonably clear. I might have found it vaguely interesting, but after the fourth or fifth failure, it has become nothing more than a loathsome chore that prevents me from enjoying the rest of the campaign. I couldn't care less about the storyline now.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

There simply isn't enough time to finish. Even when I cheat by reloading whenever a battle goes badly, and even when playing with foreknowledge of how the map is laid out and what I will face, and even when I aggressively push my way directly to the trolls and manage to get their help around turn 30 with a unit already positioned at the bomb, there just isn't enough time to hack through all the undead in the final chamber. There are a lot of them, and the bottleneck where the bomb blows up makes the trolls' help almost useless, because only one or two units are able to fight while everyone else is backed up behind them.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

1

I have been playing and replaying this level for far too many hours, without success. I don't see how anyone could finish this scenario on this difficulty on their first try, mainly because it's so unlikely that they would both stumble upon the correct path and have all the resources necessary to finish in time. I'm beginning to doubt that I'll be able to finish it at all. Perhaps if I had a few upgraded bowmen at the start (which might speed up the battles), or a ton of money (so I can hire the trolls earlier), but I don't.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Allow at least another 7-10 turns (probably more if you expect someone to finish without knowing the map already), reduce the number of foes, or perhaps enlarge the opening created by the bomb. Anything to make it possible to reach and kill the lich in time.
Curuedhel
Posts: 1
Joined: March 29th, 2012, 10:45 pm

Re: South Guard 7a. Into the Depths

Post by Curuedhel »

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?

1.6.3 Normal

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

10

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Reasonable

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Average

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Enemies who are practically immune to my most common damage type
No option to recruit more suitable troops
Enemies who are buffed by darkness to inflict double the damage of my troops
Extremely frustrating terrain movement penalties
Didn't have enough golf to pay the trolls by the time I met them
Endless stream of enemies appearing faster than I could heal my troops
Little or no cover
Just a mountain of frustration after the previous nicely balanced scenarios
I rate quit in the end. Don't think I'll bother trying again

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

1

In comparison to previous scenarios more like -5

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Quit stacking the odds so heavily. Give us the option to have troops that are more suitable and give us the odd breathing space to recuperate after a heavy assault. Give both sides advantages and disadvantages rather than inflicting all the disadvantages on the player. This scenario really made me want to quit playing altogether.
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Telchin
Posts: 355
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Location: Czech Republic

Re: South Guard 7a. Into the Depths

Post by Telchin »

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?

1.10.0 Civilian

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

2 with Trolls, 3 without them. When I played this camapign for the first time (1.4.7) I didn't meet the Trolls ( were they there at this time?) and it was very hard, especially for a begginer player, for whom StG is meant. This time I was more prepared (I leveled two shamans into into sorceresses).

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Reasonable

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Good, but the trolls desiring money and elves being allergic by iron seems weird.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Killing the eystalk. I tend to reload often, but this was the occasion it was most needed in this scenario. When I payed the Trolls, the rest became watching the skeletons getting crushed. I then restarted just to ignore the Trolls and give my sorceresses something to do :D I suppose the Troll are weaker on higher difficulty setting, but I¨m rather casual player so I play all campaigns on easiest setting and with abuse of save/load :oops:


(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

2 - it's either too easy (if the Trolls are helpful or you are prepared like I did this time) or too hard (as you fight undead in darkness with bad damage types and on slow terrain).

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

The begginer help mentions that cavalrymen are slower here, but it fails to mention that the elves are even slower (cavalrymen: 8MP/cost 4 = 2 hexes; elves: 5MP/cost 3 = 1 hex!) I actually found the Dragoons useful here as meatshields, as the enemy has no units with pierce (or fire) attacks , so the cavalrymen take less damage from all enemy attacks compared to the rest of your units. Also, unlike the other branch the main villain is killed two scenarios before end, making the rest of the campaign seem unnecessary (No i don't expect this to changed)
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Ninjuri
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Re: South Guard 7a. Into the Depths

Post by Ninjuri »

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
easy
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
11
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
clear
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
fine
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

The whole thing was broken.

>3 headed eye monster with a 13-3 drain and regenerate
>2012
>ISHYGDDT

Seriously? Was that thing entirely necessary? I sent loads of spear men after it, so when i attacked it, at least wouldn't proc the drain, but it still ended up killing everyone and routed my entire army, with all that drain and regen, it simply would not die. While it was violently tentacle-raping all of my men, the enemies massed a huge force and pushed into the bottle-neck to take me down. I actually lost, 23 turns in, without taking 2 steps outside of my castle, do you see the problem here?

Well i tried it a second time, and barely managed to push past the horrid thing, sacrificing my javelineer, my only lv. 2 of the spear-man line, in the process. Then i pushed along the caves inch by inch relying very heavily on my 2 sub leader units. There were simply too great a volume of enemies that would not die. This is probably due to the fact that all the weapon types i could recruit could only scratch the undead; and because i had no units fit to even fight in a cave, the hit percentages were skewed against me. When i went to attack wraiths, i would actually end up healing them, because none of my attacks hit, yet all of theirs did. Poisoned units occupied all of my villages, and all the spots around my 2 sub leaders. The amount of units i was able to stream out with the amount of gold i was getting was definitely not enough to fight a 2 front battle. I ended up holding the skeletons off on the south, with help from an occupied village and my little elvish fairy. I then sent the rest of my force, backed by the white mage guy, to the fight against those little plague frogs. I managed to kill the zombie leader just as turns were on the verge of running out, and failed the mission halfway down toward the lich, just after meeting the trolls (which, needless to say i had no hope of paying). I didn't even get to see the lich's castle, let alone kill him.

After my second hours-long try, i was fed up, so i just gave each of my leaders 20 movement and 1000 hp and let them go to work.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
0

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Remove the tentacle rape monster, it really had nothing to do with the plot and it seemed like it's only purpose was to make my life miserable.

Attachment related, it's when i got raped on my first try.
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Fate is against me.
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samwyse
Posts: 4
Joined: August 10th, 2012, 1:09 pm

Re: South Guard 7a. Into the Depths

Post by samwyse »

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Beginner, 1.10. I'm new to BfW, somewhat experienced in turn-based strategy games.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
10. Prior to this, it was a walk in the park, but this one is like marching into a meat grinder.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Very clear and interesting.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
I need to replay the entire campaign to be sure, but I think that I've gotten to into an unwinnable state.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
1. Thus far, it has been an exercise in frustration.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I think the changes need to be made prior to this scenario. I seem to be in the same situation as Ninjuri. I'm a new player and this is the first campaign I've played. The first several scenarios were fairly easy, and I finished each with a couple of hundred gold pieces. Each time, as I needed NPCs, I would recruit new ones rather than recalling old ones, and I would finish each scenario with about half of my recruits still having zero XP. It wasn't until Tidings, Good and Ill that a chance bit of dialog reminded me that I could recall experienced NPCs, and I immediately recalled my best ones for that scenario. As a result, I began Into the Depths with five NPCs at level two (one of them Cavalry), and about a hundred at level one. On my first attempt, everyone died at the "Eyestalk" creature. On my second attempt, I recalled two of my Elvish Shamen and didn't lose until the first Revenant. By the third attempt, I'd figured out that ranged attacks were fairly useless; unfortunately my four non-Cavalry level two NPCs were all Bowmen. Still, I survived until the fork in the path, where I split my forces and lost waging a two-front battle. Next time, I'll just follow one of the paths, but I'm still not confident that I'll survive until the end,

As nearly as I can tell, this is shaping up as a classic example of Unwinnable By Mistake. To avoid it, the earlier scenarios need to remind me that I can recall previous NPCs. This would give me more second level characters to choose from at this one. Peeking at the walk-through, I may have also been overprotective of Minister Hylas and Ethiliel, who are still at their initial levels.

[Edited: I've started a thread to fix this issue.]
Cabrillo
Posts: 7
Joined: September 10th, 2012, 8:52 pm

Re: South Guard 7a. Into the Depths

Post by Cabrillo »

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
1.10, Normal (hardest)
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
About a 5: I had to dance around a bit for the final kill, but my lvl 3 guys and powerful healers proved their worth. For reference, I was working with two Royal Guards, a Shyde (Elthiliel), Mage of Light (Minister), and Mounted General (Deoran), with ancillary lvl 1 redshirts. [**EDIT after reading others' comments -- yeah, this would have been hell without my high-level guys. Sorry for all y'all's miserable exierience!**]
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Pretty clear, though I was unsure for a while whether to play this like a battle or like an RPG. That delayed Deoran's entry into battle for longer than was really necessary. It took a little while of not finding villages to reach my conclusion.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
More interesting than usual (which isn't bad in the first place), good work! I only think Mel'Whatever's farewell line could use a little work. More vitriol. Perhaps something along the lines of "You cannot win against me! You cannot defeat death! Live your pitiful lives in fear, for we meet again on the other side!"
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Keeping everyone (important) alive. With these enemies, you really can't afford to ever get 2v1'd as it won't take much bad luck to kill off anyone who's even slightly wounded.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
It's a good 8 or 9. A fitting conclusion and interesting playstyle, especially as compared to the big fights (Vale of Tears, Choice in the Fog) I've been accustomed to so far. The trolls were a really fun addition; it was great to see units that weren't against me but which I didn't have to stress out about losing. High fives all around for that idea.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Besides that minor dialog change I mentioned above, perhaps making the green enemy a little more threatening. I feel like I wasted the minister and his royal guard (and their troll pet :D ) mopping that up . But hey, maybe I'm just dumb for following a diversion.
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devavrata
Posts: 119
Joined: August 30th, 2012, 8:59 pm

Re: South Guard 7a. Into the Depths

Post by devavrata »

Content Feedback wrote:(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Screw this. I wrote a very long post, and it was lost because of session expiring. Damned phpBB!
podbelski
Posts: 151
Joined: June 7th, 2011, 8:35 pm

Re: South Guard 7a. Into the Depths

Post by podbelski »

@devavrata

I always do "select all (Ctrl-a) - Copy (Ctrl-c)" before clicking "Submit" button
so everything you wrote copied to the clipboard...
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GunChleoc
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Re: South Guard 7a. Into the Depths

Post by GunChleoc »

Sorry you lost your post :(

for very long posts, I also sometimes compose in Word and copy to the forum when finished.
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