South Guard 7a. Into the Depths

Feedback for the mainline campaign The South Guard.

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DavidF
Posts: 1
Joined: December 17th, 2012, 5:05 pm

Re: South Guard 7a. Into the Depths

Post by DavidF » December 17th, 2012, 5:35 pm

Content Feedback wrote:(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
1. Normal. 1.8 (?) (Latest Ubuntu Software Center BfW Mega Package as of Dec 15 2012)
2. 8, because of unhelpful help from the trolls.
3. 5, I kinda understood what it was about, but it was the least clear of the objectives in the game.
4. 3 for clearness (what backdoor?) 4 for interesting (scenario dialog generally a bit on the stiff side)
5. Troll whelps swarming the tunnels making forward movement impossible. The tunnels are already slow to maneuver, with the whelps blocking, movement was nil for turn after turn, eventually forcing me to turn back and start swimming only to arrive too late to able to beat the liche before the turn limit. I had to reload repeatedly to try and race, making it only after several frustrating tries of strong and helpful, but too clingy trolls blocking the way.
6. 4. Annoying trolls ruined it.
7. Fewer, or more aggressively hunting trolls. While they did proved a lot of muscle, valiantly sacrificing their lives to make way for my warriors, they also blocked the path they cleared, forcing me to reload the game repeatedly, trying to race up to the liche before the turns ran out.

Linthar
Posts: 77
Joined: September 14th, 2006, 12:16 am

Re: South Guard 7a. Into the Depths

Post by Linthar » July 29th, 2014, 2:49 am

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Soldier (aka the highest difficulty) 1.10.7

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
4. I was worried that this would be nasty, but it didn't turn out to bad.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
I found them clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
The dialog was fine.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
I was more worried about this scenario then any other from what few memories I had of playing this 7 years ago, but apparently remembering nasty cave scenario against undead is coming up, was enough to ensure I was well prepared. I had two elvish sorcerers to give me good damage against the skeletons, Etheliel leveled up to a Shyde to give me a healer that would be mobile in the caves, and several swordsman and royal guards to give me tanks that would still have reasonable movement in the caves. Of course it turned out that a good portion of the path to the enemy was made of road and dirt tiles so my fears of slow moving elves were a bit overrated (even if it did take forever to get the sorcerers past the initial stretch of caves). Still that was a good enough force to route the undead without too much trouble. I took a good bit of damage but I could heal it up just fine. I also didn't have the money to pay the trolls but I didn't need them.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8. It was a fun bit of dungeon crawling. The slow pace of cave movement was a bit frustrating, but it was a running battle almost the whole way through.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Its fine as it is.

kiss
Posts: 124
Joined: July 9th, 2014, 5:50 pm

Re: South Guard 7a. Into the Depths

Post by kiss » July 29th, 2014, 5:54 pm

Damn, I do not understood the introduction from the previous scenario! And now, some units that I wish to recall are gone. Tidings Good and Ill was really a mess, do not even notice the shroud!
Ok, let's going on.
50 turns, shroud, no villages, difficult to plan something, it should be a kind of labyrinth.

Strategy: explore and be carefull this time!

Turn 1: Don't know if this monster will attack.

Turn 2: Pfuiiii difficult to manage moves in that cave! I feel like playing a puzzle.

Turn 3, 4: I bet it wont attack!

Turn 5: bet lost. Why do my shaman doesn't heal?

Turn 6, ..., 9: Mmmmm, 3 villages now? ... pfuiii. Ho, I got it, the shroud!

Turn 10, ..., 14: I can spend a few gold.

Turn 15, ..., 24: What can I do but look?

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?

Civilian (beginner) 1.10.7

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
1, but without the troll all have died!

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
A nice movie.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Do nothing and look.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
3

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

I really don't know, it is obvious I can't do anything!
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shadow12
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Joined: November 6th, 2015, 1:06 am

Re: South Guard 7a. Into the Depths

Post by shadow12 » January 16th, 2016, 3:50 am

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on? Soldier, Wesnoth 1.10.5, iOS 1.0.4
Ended on turn 40/40. Starting gold 254, carry over 124. Recalled 15 units, a combo of L3's and L2's to level. Bowmen worked well for creatures with melee-drain when swords aren't as effective.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10) 7, with the Trolls.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives? Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
An interesting story. Mal M'Brin is a tragic character. We find out why he was not at his cottage in the Vale of Tears.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
I was worried about the Eyestalk monster. But the MoL, Merman Triton and the Longbowman defeated him. The Merman Triton had the most effect on the monster, maybe because the triton's hp is 60 and the monster does not like melee attacks.

At the very end of the game, the trolls had completely surrounded Mal M'Brin. They couldn't kill him because he kept draining the Trolls hp. Then the turns ran out and the game ended. The next time around, spaces opened up so my Master Bowman and Cavalier had a chance to shoot him with arrows. Then the trolls finished him.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
10. Very fun!
The shortcut to Mal B. was helpful so we didn't have to go all the way around.
I like that the tunnels were not overly long, and that there were open areas allowing for forward progress and room to fight. Long and narrow single-file tunnels running down the entire length of the map are not my favorite, but this map wasn't like that. It had nice open areas between the tunnels. The canals, sandy areas and marshes are good for mermen. Two mermen went into the first canal going off to the north. They looped around and attacked the enemy from the backside. Then they moved down the center waterway and helped in the fight in the southwest.

I had to decide if I should gain xp fighting the trolls, or save my units and let the trolls do most of the fighting. I picked the latter, but I think it would have been more fun fighting them. The trolls did clog up some tunnels, but I could leap-frog over them and land on an open spot.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Maybe add something to the small lake in the northeast corner, like a secret passage that holds a mermaid who the trolls had captured and were saving as a snack for later.

Mermaid: "Please don't hurt me, Mr. Troll."
Troll: "Yum, Sushi." :P (We would rescue her of course).

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario? Yes, some reloads.
Sometimes life unexpectedly throws a Troll or a nasty Queen Naga in your path.

CodeLurker
Posts: 1
Joined: September 23rd, 2016, 9:02 am

Re: South Guard 7a. Into the Depths

Post by CodeLurker » September 23rd, 2016, 10:26 am

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Hard, starting gold 174
1.12.6
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
9.5, if that's a logarithmic scale. I had to play it over a dozen times, whereas none of the other scenarios were even close. I often ended up with unwinable save games. If I happened to have a narrow passage blocked by tons of undead, it slowed things down too much to be winable.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
9. Some confusion over the ending conditions, but that may have just been my bad.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
After over a dozen replays, I skip it a lot. On hard level, the whole thing with the trolls is kinda stupid. You can't get enough gold to buy their help, unless you come into it with tons.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
  • NONE OF MY LEVEL 3 CHARACTERS COULD BE RECALLED!!!! This HAS to be a bug. I'm the second poster on this thread to complain of this. I am pretty sure my previous scenario had level 3 characters which survived. All of a sudden, the enemy went up in difficulty greatly, whereas my guys were of lower level. Favortism of the evil course? How NWO. I bet it would have been easier if I'd allied with the thieves. Wandering ghosts and deathblades would just hack up 2-3 of my troops easily, and make a big dent in the nest - appearing seemingly out of nowhere, against underpowered characters.
  • The guardian at the beginning, of course; with my guys getting caught between the revenant and the guardian and repeatedly dying. The best strategy I'd found is to have troops attack the guardian, with Hylas behind them. Then, the revenant will kill one. Then, Hylas must be able to occupy that hex and kill the revenant quickly. Otherwise, it tends to kill lots of your guys; and if you just go for the revenant next to the guardian, Hylas doesn't make out too well. I suppose this is as designed. The real enemy at the beginning isn't the guardian, but the revenant who keeps killing your guys as you try to kill the guardian.
  • Narrow passages. I'd often get bogged down with a couple of enemies who wouldn't die, holding up my whole army. This is especially true when you get bogged down just after passing the two "towns" to your immediate south as you travel west, after killing the guardian; or just before you reach the fork. With the slow travel by the guardian, the only way to win on hard, with level 2 characters at best (only 3 level 2's were available at that) is to hope you get lucky this time, and don't have important passages blocked by a bunch of enemies, making further progress bog down.
  • Short time controls on hard. Maybe it's not so bad if you can recall level 3 characters, but I began to wonder if it was possible to do the whole thing in the allotted time.
  • Wandering deathblades and wraths that would just start hacking up my guys, appearing out of nowhere.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7.5. I'd give it more if some corridors were widened.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
  • Ability to recall level 3 troops!!!
  • Fewer two-hex-wide corridors, especially before the fork
  • A plot that somehow involved the trolls, or left them out, when you're pretty unlikely to have the 200 gold pieces on hard.
  • Possibly, more time on hard
  • Lower the probability of getting poisoned? It was impossible for any group to fight for long without a healer, for me.
My winning strategy:
  • As above, let the revenant kill one guy, so Hylas can take his place and kill it, so you can finally concentrate on the guardian. It is just too slow to back up and let the revenant come for you past the guardian. Withdrawing a guy after the Revenant's attack and stepping in to kill the revenant should work too.
  • Don't recall anyone (unless you can recall level 3 characters) at first, because the characters get chewed up a lot at first. I recruited a mix of spearmen, archers and elvish fighters at first, and most often throughout the scenario.
  • ALWAYS keep Hylas and Elitheil together. They keep healing each other. Hylas was my best fighter on the whole level. He was a Mage of Light by the end. He is especially effective against those deathblades and revenants. He keeps getting poisoned, as does she, as does EVERYBODY. Hylas would do most of the fighting, until he was weak enough to have to be pulled back and let Elithiel heal him. Only let Elithiel fight when she outmatches her opponents, or when too many others are too sick to fight.
  • NEVER let Hylas rest at a town to heal, unless it wouldn't slow him down. You don't have time, and he moves slowly.
  • Don't use cavalry, except maybe a few for the junior adepts that throw those powerful lightening bolts. Even then, I finally won without them.
  • It was a MUST for me to recruit an elvish mage, and level it up to make an elvish druid, so that it could be healing guys who took the south fork. I fought down both forks. I leveled an elvish fighter up to an elvish lieutenant while on the south fork, so I kept sending elves that way. I finally had him, an elvish druid, and an elvish fighter that survived, that had to fight off a deathblade and two junior adepts at the south bridge. Only the druid survived (and I wasn't about to back up from the bridge with these short time controls), but the surviving mage was of great help beating the final lich and his minions.
  • Always check the combat probabilities.
  • While letting archers shoot at an enemy without getting poisoned is tempting and sometimes useful, if you keep a Hylas, Elithil or other druid near them, it becomes not so important - and with short time controls, you probably want to choose to do more damage with more risk most of the time.

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zookeeper
WML Wizard
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Re: South Guard 7a. Into the Depths

Post by zookeeper » September 23rd, 2016, 10:54 am

CodeLurker wrote:NONE OF MY LEVEL 3 CHARACTERS COULD BE RECALLED!!!! This HAS to be a bug. I'm the second poster on this thread to complain of this. I am pretty sure my previous scenario had level 3 characters which survived. All of a sudden, the enemy went up in difficulty greatly, whereas my guys were of lower level.
There's no level-based criteria; as mentioned in the previous scenario, it's just that units you recalled in that one aren't available here.

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UnwiseOwl
Posts: 471
Joined: April 9th, 2010, 4:58 am

Re: South Guard 7a. Into the Depths

Post by UnwiseOwl » January 27th, 2017, 12:34 pm

The [sighted] event for Mal M'Brin didn't work for me playing on 1.13.6.

It seems to be something to do with a buggy interaction between his non-standard id="Mal M'Brin" and the 'sighted' event (this id appears to work fine for 'message' events), and everything works fine if his ID is replaced by something more standard.

I've submitted a bug report for this #25471 [Gna.org].

Also, at the start of this scenario Ethiliel displays the knowledge that Mebrin is the lich despite not believing this at this point of the campaign.

I'd suggest changing:
"Proceed slowly, who knows what evils inhabited these parts [i]before Mebrin was turned[/i]! We cannot be too careful." to "Proceed slowly, who knows what evils inhabit these parts! We cannot be too careful."
"It must be a guardian of some kind set here by [i]Mebrin[/i]. We elves have heard stories of these creatures but I wouldn’t have expected to come across one... the least of all here. Let us proceed with caution." to "It must be a guardian of some kind set here by [u]the evil creature that lurks here[/u]. We elves have heard stories of these creatures but I wouldn’t have expected to come across one... the least of all here. Let us proceed with caution."
and:"These creatures are much too simpleminded to be of any help to us but at least they will not attack us outright. We will have to face [i]Mebrin[/i] alone." to "These creatures are much too simpleminded to be of any help to us but at least they will not attack us outright. We will have to face [u]this enemy[/u] alone."
Maintainer of the Imperial Era and the campaigns Dreams of Urduk, Epic of Vaniyera, Up from Slavery, Fall of Silvium, Alfhelm the Wise and Gali's Contract.
But perhaps 'maintainer' is too strong a word.

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Britannicus
Posts: 57
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Re: South Guard 7a. Into the Depths

Post by Britannicus » June 26th, 2017, 11:43 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?

Version 1.12.1, Challenging

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

Overall 4, some specific situations were tough though.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Very clear, the backdoor was easy to find.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

5. Decent, but nothing special.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Figuring out what troops to recall/recruit, figuring out the best way to defeat the Beholder/Revenant combo and remembering the best way to move Elves in a cave.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

8, only annoying thing is the trolls blocking your path.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Nothing, really.

Konrad2
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Posts: 986
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Re: South Guard 7a. Into the Depths

Post by Konrad2 » May 5th, 2018, 10:20 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?

Version 1.14.0, Soldier (Normal)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

Overall 4, some specific situations were tough though. (I agree too much to change this)

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

5. I liked it. One of the few cases where a part of the Secret Lore is revealed.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Dealing with the Guardian.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

8

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

None. Uncreative me.
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I am a Ghost: I drain the life energy from other people to survive and am hated/feared by regular people. Non-regular people don't like me either though.

perfectlyGoodInk
Posts: 2
Joined: May 28th, 2018, 7:29 pm

Re: South Guard 7a. Into the Depths

Post by perfectlyGoodInk » May 28th, 2018, 7:54 pm

Hello, I'm a first-time poster. I am pretty hooked in the game, but wanted to provide some feedback on this scenario and hopefully it comes across as constructive.
Content Feedback wrote:
March 9th, 2006, 1:14 pm
(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
1) I played Easy. This was my first ever campaign, as I read somewhere that this was a good one to start with, although I played Orcish Intrusion next and think that one would probably be a gentler introduction to the game because of the smaller maps with the more straight-forward goals. I'm playing the unofficial Android port by Alessandro Pira, version 1.12.6-45 on my phone.

2) I rate it a difficulty of 9 if you pick to give the Trolls land and 3 if you pick gold (largely in getting to that decision point, the difficulty is 1 after you pick it).

3) Pretty clear.

4) It was pretty good.

5) Well, defeating the undead with humans and elves without Troll help seems insanely difficult as a beginner.

6) 3. It's no fun doing so little damage to the undead with each attack, and when you do have the help of the Trolls, you seem completely irrelevant. But it's kinda fun to see how easily the Trolls handle them.

7) I wish there were some clues provided to indicate that the Trolls would be more interested in the gold, perhaps some overheard dialog where you hear Trolls talking about wishing for gold or laughing about the uselessness of human land, or coming across a Troll treasury. I thought long and hard about it and decided that the value of gold is a lot more arbitrary and artificial than the value of land because land has far more use value. I reasoned that Trolls would probably find some more value in the rocks on the land than in a metal that is very soft and primarily useful nowadays as an electrical conductor and inflation hedge. This was, of course, wrong, but there was little explanation as to why.

I also wish the game was easier to win if you pick land and a little harder to win if you pick gold. It's the 2nd-to-last scenario in a campaign aimed at beginners, so I expect something that is not quite as easy as the last scenario but a little harder than the previous. It would also be more interesting if the Trolls proposed a plan of attack where you actually had to do something a bit more involved than just getting to a specific point and then standing back to watch, preferably when it came to taking down the final boss.

That's about all I have to say. Hope it's useful. Thanks to all those who worked on this awesome game!

LordWolfDan
Posts: 31
Joined: September 30th, 2018, 7:31 am

Re: South Guard 7a. Into the Depths

Post by LordWolfDan » October 9th, 2018, 6:37 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?

- 1.14.5, Beginner

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

- 5

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

- Easy, find out who's behind this evil

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

- I liked it. It was a nice touch that troll is your ally in this one. Furthermore, the revelation of Mebrin becoming Mal M'brin, his twisted transformation after being captured and his twisted mind, very good

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

- Dealing with skeletons because only useful units I had in this one were Deoran, Ethiliel, Hylas and elvish sorceress

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

- 8

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

- Maybe some dialogue after Mal M'brin's undeath?

josteph
Developer
Posts: 92
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Re: South Guard 7a. Into the Depths

Post by josteph » October 12th, 2018, 7:32 pm

perfectlyGoodInk wrote:
May 28th, 2018, 7:54 pm
7) I wish there were some clues provided to indicate that the Trolls would be more interested in the gold, perhaps some overheard dialog where you hear Trolls talking about wishing for gold or laughing about the uselessness of human land, or coming across a Troll treasury. I thought long and hard about it and decided that the value of gold is a lot more arbitrary and artificial than the value of land because land has far more use value. I reasoned that Trolls would probably find some more value in the rocks on the land than in a metal that is very soft and primarily useful nowadays as an electrical conductor and inflation hedge. This was, of course, wrong, but there was little explanation as to why.

I also wish the game was easier to win if you pick land and a little harder to win if you pick gold. It's the 2nd-to-last scenario in a campaign aimed at beginners, so I expect something that is not quite as easy as the last scenario but a little harder than the previous. It would also be more interesting if the Trolls proposed a plan of attack where you actually had to do something a bit more involved than just getting to a specific point and then standing back to watch, preferably when it came to taking down the final boss.
Thanks for the feedback. You'll find some hints in the race description of trolls (in the in-game help): it says that trolls live in caves or mountains and generally don't interact much with other races (except militarily). Also, even if you offer the trolls land, you can later offer them gold again by moving a unit next to the troll leader (you have to find the troll's keep first).

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