South Guard 5. Choice in the Fog

Feedback for the mainline campaign The South Guard.

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podbelski
Posts: 151
Joined: June 7th, 2011, 8:35 pm

Re: South Guard 5. Choice in the Fog

Post by podbelski » October 29th, 2011, 9:37 am

taptap wrote:@SBak: Gerrick is great as L3, he can even slow and has impact damage. Even if he had nothing of this, when you have a loyal unit with leadership, you should always level it.
very true. You can even say "when you have a loyal unit, you should always level it." I mean, loyal units are great by themself, and should be leveled 99% of the times...

Kaiserdrache
Posts: 32
Joined: November 3rd, 2011, 7:26 am

Re: South Guard 5. Choice in the Fog

Post by Kaiserdrache » November 3rd, 2011, 8:15 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?

Game version: 1.8.5, Difficulty: Easy

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

3, maybe 4. I had no problems dealing with the units, but the Lich proved to be really hard. Although I had lots of bad luck when three lvl 3 units missed him 8 times in a row.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Very clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Not so clear. The storyline was once again pretty forward, but I wasn't sure about the choice concerning elves and bandits. Well, I chose the elves and it proved to be a good decision.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

As mentioned above, the Lich. Nothing more, nothing less.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

6, maybe 7.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

No idea.

Gerion
Posts: 49
Joined: March 28th, 2010, 11:01 am

Re: South Guard 5. Choice in the Fog

Post by Gerion » December 21st, 2011, 2:22 am

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Hardest, 1.8.6

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
5. The time limit is a bit tricky, but otherwise not really difficult. For beginners fighting in an unknown area and fighting at a terrain disatvantage (when using mainly humans) could be a problem

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear enough for the scenario. Of course, the objectives are not really clear at the beginning, but that is the intention of not knowing what to do

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
very clear and interesting. It is fun to see one of the oh so goodie elves fall into darkness and the talk with Mathin clarifies a lot.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Being faster than the time limit. In the end i only had 5 turns left, what is quite different to the usual "beat the scenario in about half the possible time"

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8. It is really fun and the red herring with the undead in the SW is interesting

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
can't think of any

BritNavFan
Posts: 10
Joined: December 17th, 2011, 8:47 pm

Re: South Guard 5. Choice in the Fog

Post by BritNavFan » December 21st, 2011, 2:54 am

(1) 1.8.6 at NORMAL/"Easy", 1.9.12 at HARD/"Normal" once each
(2) Difficulty (1-10): 2 (doing all the exploration was an (interesting) task, but I was never in any danger of losing the scenario)
(3) Clarity of scenario objectives: As clear as appropriate (the objectives being somewhat murky is an essential part of the scenario)
(4) Dialog and storyline: Excellent
(5) Major challenges: None
(6) Fun (1-10): 7 (above average) The story setup was great: then I spent a lot of time exploring a mostly empty map with no significant opponents.
(7) Changes I'd make:
The story blurb says that you travel through the forest for weeks, until you have left even the dwellings of the Elves far behind, and you are now approaching the dread Black River, beyond which even the Elves have not travelled.
But the part of the map north of the Black River is full of villages, and the Black River itself has an impressive bridge across it, complete with unoccupied guard towers, and the forest south of the Black River is mostly empty of anything dangerous, but has a path leading directly first to the bandits' camp and then to the BigBad's castle. There are no ambushes, no monsters living in the forest, no guards in the guard towers by each bridge, and the opposition is almost entirely L1's.
  • So the first thing I'd do is change the last sentence of the story from "Finally Ethiliel told the men to halt and pitch camp — they had reached the Black River, beyond which no elf or man would willingly pass." to "Finally, as another dreary day faded into the gathering dark, Ethiliel and her rangers led them to an Elvish holding - the last such holding, she explained, before the Black River, beyond which no elf or man would willingly pass." Then change the art (villages, some trees, maybe the encampment) in the northwest corner of the map to Elvish ones. That explains the presence of some of the villages.
  • The second thing I'd do is change the day-night schedule from {DEFAULT_SCHEDULE} to {DUSK} {FIRST_WATCH} {SECOND_WATCH} {DAWN} {DUSK} {DUSK} - replacing each of MORNING and AFTERNOON with an extra DUSK - to emphasize the dimness of the forest and reinforce the player's sense of "We're not in Kansas any more, Toto."
  • The third thing is to tear down the the bridge over the Black River. Make it shallow water so it's a ford.
  • The next scenario (6a "Tidings Good and Ill") has all of the dangers that I expected to find in A Choice in the Fog. I'd use them here, as well. (I'd actually create a new side for some of them. There's a nice swampy spot for creatures that like swimming to have a keep and some villages down by the big bad's castle. They'd be on the "Undead" "team" for game play purposes.) I might also borrow some of the code for creating ambushes from scenario 7 of "Heir to the Throne", "Crossroads", to create a brigand ambush on the path at HARD difficulty. And I'd add a few miscellaneous monsters - maybe wolves in the forest, maybe griffons in the mountains, maybe some of the monsters from scenario (6a), etc...
  • Side 3 (the walking corpses) is odd in a number of ways. First, a level 1 boss in a scenario where the player has L3 units is rather anticlimactic. I'd improve the boss to a level 2 undead/necromancer type at NORMAL difficulty. Secondly, although at HARD difficulty the side is given the ability to recruit ghouls, the AI doesn't. So I might try using the AI commands "recruitment_ignore_bad_movement=yes" and "recruitment_ignore_bad_combat=yes" in case the AI thinks ghouls' damage type is bad on this map, or something. But I'd still use LIMIT_CONTEMPORANEOUS_RECRUITS for ghouls so that their army remains mostly Soulless.
  • Side 4 (the BigBad) is pretty weak for an Evil Empire. At harder difficulty levels I'd give them some villages in their castle, and also create some guards there with the {GUARDIAN} and {NO_UPKEEP} modifier macros. That would encourage them to maintain more than a couple of units at any given time, and would make the final fight a little more interesting.
  • To compensate for all this, at HARD difficulty I'd give the player more time (i.e. the same amount of time as at NORMAL difficulty).
  • The AI doesn't seem to recruit lower level units of a given role (e.g. fighter, scout, archer, mixed fighter, healer) when it can recruit higher level units of that role. Both undead factions are given the ability to recruit higher level units at the harder difficulty. So if the scenario designer wants the AI's for these sides to recruit all of the units in their recruitment lists, which is implied in that the designers didn't remove the lower level units from the harder difficulty recruitment lists, the designer needs to modify the AI's recruitment decisions somehow. The standard way to do this is to use the AI macros LIMIT_RECRUITS and LIMIT_CONTEMPORANEOUS_RECRUITS for the higher level units. This is also an issue with Scenario 4, Vale of Tears, at HARD difficulty - the AI can recruit level 2 fighters and archers so it only recruits level 2 fighters and archers .
(8) Lost game due to: didn't lose game.
(9) Took me a little while to figure out that the story was in utils/sg_story.cfg

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Ninjuri
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Re: South Guard 5. Choice in the Fog

Post by Ninjuri » May 28th, 2012, 1:05 am

Normal 1.10.2
Difficulty: 7, but mostly because of cautiousness and trying to explore such a large map
Objectives: 100% clear
Dialogue: Good, I liked the choice of allying with the bandits. I didn't, because i thought the elves were too valuable an ally.
Challenges: Exploring, it took me a while just to figure out where the zombies were coming from. Also a lot of the river, especially on the east, has only a few shallow parts for units to cross, which bottlenecked and slowed my armies. Since i didn't ally with the bandits, i decided i'd still make them work for me by not crossing the river until they were all wiped out, so i wouldn't have to waste units on them.
Fun: 7
Changes: Maybe do something to make the map a little easier to explore.
Fate is against me.

Cabrillo
Posts: 7
Joined: September 10th, 2012, 8:52 pm

Re: South Guard 5. Choice in the Fog

Post by Cabrillo » September 12th, 2012, 4:54 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
1.10, hardest
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
7: I could have made this easier on myself. As it was I didn't recruit enough level 1 units, and so to successfully retain my beloved high-XP forces, I had to play very conservatively (terrain, day/night cycle). This put me close to the turn cap--I think I finished with only 3 or 4 to spare.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Quite clear.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Very interesting and clear. It was a difficult choice for me on a roleplaying level, but in the end, the voice JUSTICE was loudest. Bandit scum.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Deathblades. 5 attacks are you kidding me. The fog was interesting as well and I lost a loyal merscout due to a surprise that I reacted stupidly to. The lich king is tough too because the terrain favors him so much.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
9: I had a blast! My favorite part was the thin thread of open ground running through the forest to the green enemy. I had to thread that line as I worked the day-night cycle and alternating attacks from green and purple, and the tension was palpable the whole way through. This was also the most expansive scenario yet. I do wish I'd taken advantage of it by recruiting more elvses!
Finally, I really enjoyed the bandit decision and the strategy involved in a 1v1v2.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Eh, maybe some sort of scripted event when you first step foot over the south river. I crossed with great trepidation because I was expecting some sort of calamity, so it was a bit of a letdown... until the deathblades and bone shooters arrived. Then I forgot all about "wanting" some additional terrifying event to happen.
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Seldam
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Re: South Guard 5. Choice in the Fog

Post by Seldam » December 24th, 2012, 9:51 am

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
easy, 1.10.5

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
6

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Not very clear but part of the scenario.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
5

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Nothing special.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I loved the choice. This makes the scenario special. Very good one.

Pilchard123
Posts: 6
Joined: February 20th, 2013, 8:04 pm

Re: South Guard 5. Choice in the Fog

Post by Pilchard123 » March 7th, 2013, 5:34 pm

Content Feedback wrote:(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
(4, 7) I've played this scenario four or five times, and in all but one of those times the bandits have managed to kill Mal M'brin before I even get past the camp. It makes the story a little bit jerky, since there's not actually any way of telling either that "M'brin" was just a fake or even that he has been killed.

Kaiserdrache
Posts: 32
Joined: November 3rd, 2011, 7:26 am

Re: South Guard 5. Choice in the Fog

Post by Kaiserdrache » March 8th, 2013, 11:46 am

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?

Normal, 1.10.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

4, quite good.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Fine.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Had to read some things twice to get the meaning, but overall quite clear.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

The last fortress in the south-eastern corner proved to be a little difficult, but I had plenty of time to take it.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

7 - I like it ;)

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

-.-

SBak
Posts: 78
Joined: October 8th, 2011, 1:36 am

Re: South Guard 5. Choice in the Fog

Post by SBak » September 28th, 2013, 6:43 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Mainly easy but also medium 1.8.5 and 1.10.5

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
4 - by default I side with the Elves. The enemy is spread thin enough to make this scenario manageable for newbies.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Initially not very, well.. until I saw the castles further south.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
I admit that I've never sided with the bandits partly for gameplay and partly for storyline reasons even though I liked the Bandit leader much more than Ethiliel, who seemed stuck up, cold and unreasonable.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The biggest challenge was involving Sir Gerrick in some way in this scenario. Initially I'd all but given up on levelling him up.

Having enough gold to recall in this scenario, the next and pay the Trolls. I sided with Elves because it's a large map with Footpads running round all over the place capturing villages, I'm of the opinion that away from swamps and caves Elves are just as good at dealing with the Undead as bandits, if not slightly better and as the terrain around villages is forest Footpads lose their defensive advantages. Furthermore if you use Elvish Shamen together with Fighters, you can gain a slight mobility advantage.

Oh and Elvish Bodyguards (actually Rangers) have stealth which comes into its own in this scenario.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

If you get stuck in as a newbie this can be a 10 and one of the best scenarios on any novice campaign. Even with more experience I wouldn't rate it lower than a 7, primarily because you have something to engage and occupy yourself with throughout the entire map.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
An additional movement point for Sir Gerrick... please.

Linthar
Posts: 77
Joined: September 14th, 2006, 12:16 am

Re: South Guard 5. Choice in the Fog

Post by Linthar » July 29th, 2014, 1:55 am

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Soldier (aka the highest difficulty) 1.10.7

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
5 my first playthrough where I sided with the elves, 3 my second playthrough siding with the bandits.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
The choice of sides is interesting, but it feels very unbalanced. I can't really see any good reason storywise why allying with the bandits over the elves makes sense. The characters do point out that the undead are a far greater threat then the bandits, but there is absolutely no reason to think that they would make better allies then the elves. In fact the plot basically goes out of it's way to point out that choosing the bandits is the wrong choice, as at the end of the scenario you need the elves to actually reach the source of the undead. And that's a shame as I found the bandit route much more enjoyable gameplay wise, but I suspect few people will see it unless they are deliberately choosing to play both routes.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The size of the map, combined with the layout and composition of the enemy being unknown. When I played through the map the first time picking the elves I recalled a good number of human units since I was reluctant to rely mainly on level 1 elves not knowing how strong the enemy would be. That meant that none of the enemies were particularly dangerous, although there were a few tricky skirmishes where my scouts met scattered groups of bandits, but my fairly human heavy army moved very slowly through the forests and I barely finished before the time limit.

The second time through things were much easier. I knew the layout of the map, and allying with the bandits gave me units scattered around the map to easily claim a lot of villages, and I gained a centralized keep to flood the enemy with footpads and thugs from (which incidentally finally give me a easily available source of impact damage to fight the undead with. Was quite happy to get them, and they made things much easier).

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7. It's an interesting map with a lot going on, and while a tad bit easy, did lead to some interesting skirmishes due to needing to split my troops a fair bit to explore in a reasonable time span.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Ideally the plot would be changed a bit to make the choice between the elves and bandits more balanced. I'm not sure exactly how I would do so, but off the top of my head, maybe when Etheliel denies that Mebrin would never lead the undead, Urza could seize the opportunity to suggest that the elves are actually more interested in protecting one of their own then destroying the undead. Just add something to make people actually consider the bandits may be the right option.

kiss
Posts: 124
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Re: South Guard 5. Choice in the Fog

Post by kiss » July 29th, 2014, 9:41 am

Long run with 50 turns.
Most of the villages are in the north.
Does the fog disappear definitively?
This map is interesting and difficult to read! The easiest way to fight seems: south, then center then southeast. The wide frontline in the center will be difficult to control.

Strategy: Keep a linked line with all units if possible. Take the bridge right south. Recall all loyals as usual, take all villages on east side.

Turn 1: Ok, the fog reappears!

Turn 2: Hooo, rangers are invisible again! Too late to recall them in first turn.

Turn 3, 4: Perhaps it is better to start the fight on the northeast keep?

Turn 5: Wrong recruitment. I choose to stay with the elves. Seems to be the time to move Deoran.

Turn 6, 7, 8: I was afraid the first fight was too early, but it seems ok now.

Turn 9, ... ,31: Moves and fights, it will be too long to explain all.

Turn 32: Over

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Civilian (beginner) 1.10.7

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
1

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear, no one knows where to go!

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
News about the old mage as expected.
Hehe, I found Nessy in the loch?
Some parts are not linked with the whole action and sounds strange.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Fighting against my choices! I recall some units and have the feeling it was a wrong choice. It hold until the end with only one loss, not so bad then.
For a moment I fear I can't handle two fights at the same time, and start to send units from one fight to another one.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

We got news of the old mage, so nothing.

Edit to add the other branch

Turn 5: I ally with outlaw
Strategy: fight west then east.

Turn 6, ..., 27: Over

I found this part easier, but as I already done it ...

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Civilian (beginner) 1.10.7

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
1

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10) 7
I've already play it and there is no major change.
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nikita1996
Posts: 49
Joined: July 18th, 2015, 8:07 am

Re: South Guard 5. Choice in the Fog

Post by nikita1996 » December 23rd, 2015, 9:40 am

Content Feedback wrote:(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
(1) 1.12.5 Hard
(2) 5. The enemies are not strong but you have to save your time. I finished this scenario just before turns ran out.
(3) Very clear.
(4) Interesting. Also, you can choose different storylines in this scenario. This is a good design.
(5) Time, time and time! The enemies are weak but you have to travel and fight fastly. I choose to cooperate with the footpads and outlaws, which makes the scenario much easier. Finally I killed the boss and many undead with those footpads and outlaws. If I didn't cooperated with them, I couldn't have finished it in 35 turns because my major troop can't travel so fast.
(6) 7. Maybe this is the most interesting scenario in TSG. First, we have to explore the map; second, we should find where the enemies come from; third, the difficulty is proper.
(7) If the player do not cooperate with the outlaws, the game can be very hard. Maybe we should give some bonus to the player who choose fighting with the footpads and outlaws.
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shadow12
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Re: South Guard 5. Choice in the Fog

Post by shadow12 » January 15th, 2016, 2:47 am

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on? Soldier, 1.0.4 iOS
159 Starting gold, Ended on turn 35/35 with 426 gold, 174 Carry Over

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8. The shroud makes the game more exciting and suspenseful, not knowing what will be coming out of the darkness at you.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives? Very clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
The storyline is interesting. The dialog is interesting, gives us background and helps us understand the characters without being overly long-winded.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
I wasn't sure which mystery creatures I would encounter in the dark, so I was unsure sure who and how many to recruit. I started with 15 units which turned out to be a good amount. My two avengers went east to scout and two mermen swam down stream. The rest of the group went south with a Cavalier to scout. The mermen defeated the bandit leader when he foolishly jumped into the river.

The time limit, I barely made it! It was my own fault. I had my troops spread out, because I mistakenly thought the SW castle would be the end but I had to search elsewhere for the source of evil.
At the very end I had to run like heck to get Minister MoL, the Commander Garrick and a Royal Guard to the SE castle. (And they aren't the fastest runners). They were already halfway across the river when I discovered the castle. It was the only area left to explore. Thankfully, there were only 3 bad guys left to fight.

I chose to side with the elves because I was afraid of losing my Shyde and Avengers.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
10,
I like the different terrains: acres of Autumn-colored forests, a meandering river, mountains on the borders, a lake complete with its own sea monster, and many paths going every direction. If not for the corpses roaming around, I would like to live in such a place!

Exploring, choosing sides, fighting the bad guys - I love scenarios like this one!

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun? Very good as is.
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario? no
Sometimes life unexpectedly throws a Troll or a nasty Queen Naga in your path.

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Britannicus
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Re: South Guard 5. Choice in the Fog

Post by Britannicus » June 26th, 2017, 4:45 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?

Version 12.1, Challenging.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

6, shrouded map plus FoW is always an added challenge.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

100% clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Pretty good, nice to have a choice between two distinct options, adds lots of replay value!

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Not overcomitting to the Southern keep. Whenever I sent (almost) all my troops straight South, the Revenants and Bone Shooters from the South-East would come flank me. This stopped when I sent a few elves along the northern shore of the river and some troops straight towards the bandits' keep.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

8, pretty great. Different enemies, shroud, a choice to be made... plus, Rangers are always super fun!

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

/

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