South Guard 4. Vale of Tears

Feedback for the mainline campaign The South Guard.

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Gerion
Posts: 49
Joined: March 28th, 2010, 11:01 am

Re: South Guard 4. Vale of Tears

Post by Gerion » December 21st, 2011, 12:05 am

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Hardest, 1.8.6

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
6. For a beginner it is challenging and even better players could lose some units if not paying attention (i did not and lost 2)

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Clear and interesting. I just think that the conclusion "maybe he was the one who summoned the undead" was a bit rushed, just because the house was deserted. Also i think "there are tracks leading south" is a bit weird. We are talking about an Elf in his home territory who went in this direction months ago. I never would expect tracks!

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Keeping Minister Hylas alive. He is the most efficient unit against the undead so he naturally was directly at the frontlines and in constant danger of being killed

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
6. It is quite fun, but sometimes a bit weird (why: point (4) and (7))

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I would give the Dark Sorceror a bit more attention. In the beginning only the bandits get mentioned ("look, there are humans", not "look, there are humans and undead"), the Sorceror gets no line until he dies, then he says thanks (why does he say that? It is never implied before that he maybe wants to be freed or something like that... it is never mentioned that he is not free in the first place. As far as the story goes up to that point the bandits learned necromancy out of their free will to get more powerful so it is naturally to think that this sorceror went a similar way) and he is never mentioned again.

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CeltiK
Posts: 27
Joined: April 24th, 2011, 9:14 am

Re: South Guard 4. Vale of Tears

Post by CeltiK » February 4th, 2012, 2:19 am

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
1.10.0; Hard no saves/reloads.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
4. Need to be careful at night against those lv2 undead.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
It's good and getting better, I like the style of the writing. But one thing about the sorcerer: he is freed from what? The bandits don't seem to need to be freed, so why he does? I don't really get it actually. It's not a major issue though, just something that I don't think it is consistent with the story.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Be careful not to exposed some valuable units.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8. A very good map.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Just clarify the thing with the sorcerer. I don't see from what or who we free him here. And again, as Jarek is automatically recalled, why he isn't loyal? Besides that would make sense with the character.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
None.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
Loyal trait for Jarek.

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Ninjuri
Posts: 167
Joined: April 28th, 2012, 2:59 am
Location: California

Re: South Guard 4. Vale of Tears

Post by Ninjuri » May 28th, 2012, 12:52 am

Easy 1.10.2
Difficulty: 6
Objectives: 100% clear, but the twist threw me off.
Dialogue: Good
Challenges: When i first started, i thought it was going to be a rush scenario to get Ethi to the house, so i pretty much threw caution to the wind, ran all my unis through the mountains and just made a b-line to the house, ignoring villages and losses. When it turned out i had to kill the enemies instead, the bulk of my force was pretty much sacked, so i had to do some strategic regrouping in order to make it.
Fun: 7
Changes: Don't know.
Fate is against me.

Cabrillo
Posts: 7
Joined: September 10th, 2012, 8:52 pm

Re: South Guard 4. Vale of Tears

Post by Cabrillo » September 11th, 2012, 7:18 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Normal (highest), 1.10
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8: I had to restart once because I let Hylas die, and when I did win, it was with only two turns remaining. It was a real challenge to use the terrain just west-northwest of the blue base to my advantage, and I really had to sweat out some tense nights as my line was tested.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Clear and fun! I felt genuine relief when the Elf's bodyguard appeared. I enjoyed the fact that the event was triggered by a comrade's death. I also liked that my archers shared my frustration regarding the ineffectiveness of their weapons against the undead.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Time was a major challenge, and I am worried about my army's XP going forward. It was very hard for me to keep level one units alive against the Revenants and Bone Archers. I ended up with a pretty fearsome core of high-XP level 2 and 3 characters, but a big gap down to the next tier.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8: I really enjoyed the challenge of working the day/night cycle. My strategy also involved an "ambush" set between the blue and green bases, and it was fun to manage the extended front. The dialog really added to my enjoyment as well. All that said, it was a pretty straightforward scenario and the mopping up phase was a bit extended. I find that my lack of good options against the undead is getting a little frustrating, but I guess that's what I signed up for! :)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I guess just making the target location a little closer to the start, so the end-phase is quicker. This was a good one, thanks for all the hard work!
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Seldam
Posts: 24
Joined: December 21st, 2012, 4:27 pm
Location: Austria

Re: South Guard 4. Vale of Tears

Post by Seldam » December 24th, 2012, 9:48 am

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
easy, 1.10.5

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
6

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Everything alright.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
7

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
To win without losing too much units.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
4. Nothing special.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Don't know.

Kaiserdrache
Posts: 32
Joined: November 3rd, 2011, 7:26 am

Re: South Guard 4. Vale of Tears

Post by Kaiserdrache » March 8th, 2013, 7:58 am

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?

Normal, 1.10.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

9 / 5 (depending on your knowledge)

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Very good.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Accumulating the knowledge how to deal with hordes of undead. South Guard is specifically mentioned as a campaign for beginners and as that Vale of Tears is quite simply too frustrating. If you are an experienced player it's a great one, but I still stick to my former review that newby players will have a sad time here.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

7 - bring on the undead!

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Not so much as in former scenarios, but still some. First and foremost my greatest concern are the loyals here. Two bodyguards with ambush seems a little bit too much. Make that one elvish ranger and one elvish hero. By doing that it's practically impossible to outflank the second leader by moving through the woods unseen. In my opinion that would add more concentration on the main corridor of fighting.

SBak
Posts: 78
Joined: October 8th, 2011, 1:36 am

Re: South Guard 4. Vale of Tears

Post by SBak » September 28th, 2013, 4:26 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Mainly easy but also medium on 1.8.5 and 1.10.5

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
Playing it now with a bit more experience it's a 2-3 but when I first started (this being my first campaign) it was a 9 and the most difficult scenario of the entire campaign.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Very clear. Get Ethiliel to the spot marked 'X' and clear the map of enemy units.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
The storyline was fine, but I was wondering how 'spoilt brat' Ethiliel managed to become an Elvish Shyde. Given the fact that Elves are a rather parochial bunch and this campaign coming after both Kalenz and Delfador in the history I found her to be somewhat snotty and unpleasant. Maybe that was what was intended for the storyline.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
THIS ... was the scenario where I really needed introductory information about Mages and Cavalrymen. I came up against new enemies - Skeletons and Poachers - the terrain isn't that easy to navigate, especially when two lots of enemies come together and even though now I know the 'spike' in this campaign isn't that much I didn't have many of the basic strategy and tactical skills that you need to handle most Wesnoth campaigns.

This was where I quit the campaign and went off and played other campaigns - HttT, A Tale of Two Brothers and Liberty - before coming back and trying again.

At first I couldn't win the scenario as I would invariably lose one character, usually Minister Hylas or Sir Gerrick, sometimes Deoran, or I would reach the Dark Adept's keep with my forces so battered that the Poachers and Footpads just came east and picked off my wounded units one by one. Also tending to overrecruit in the beginning and not capturing villages I didn't have any gold to buy replacements.

I eventually won through a somewhat ridiculous and risky strategy coming into the scenario with plenty of gold and a couple of levelled units (Swordsmen and Longbowmen) coming east from the starting keep behind a large bunch of Cavalrymen. Seriously. If anyone saw a replay of my strategy at the start you'd think I was preparing for a horse race rather than fighting the Undead and Bandits. The main idea was to disperse and scatter the Skeletons. Everyone went east to the northern end of the valley between the mountains, then I ran Ethiliel, Minister Hylas, Jarek and a few Cavalrymen north east and around the map through the forest. I would park my Longbowmen and Swordsmen with Deoran at the top of the mountains, and send Sir Gerrick with Moreth and Aleron down through the valley. I'd also toss in a couple of sacrificial Cavalrymen for the Skeletons just to get the Elvish Ranger bodyguards.

Obviously now it's completely different and I'm kind of embarrassed to think I was so intimidated back then by a handful of Skeletons and a few Footpads and Poachers but there was a time when even a Dark Adept as a newbie made me think.

But back then as a newbie you don't have any basic awareness of strategies because while it all seems so simple when you look at the units and figures and read the Wesnoth Tactical Guide but these games aren't that simple at all. You learn from playing the game of course, from your defeats, mistakes, from your discoveries and successes.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
Back then this scenario was a major problem which determined whether I could complete the campaign or not. Conversely now it's much more fun because I'm looking at different ways of beating not many enemies. Not long back I won by recalling a small team of units and leaving the keep heading west then south to complete the scenario in an anti-clockwise circuit. The bandits rushed east, the skellies rushed north, and it took a few turns for the AI to realize that I was coming from a completely different direction.It was quite amusing to see a bunch of Skeletons seem confused and Footpads having to backtrack from capturing villages all over the map.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
The biggest problem from what I can see is the lack of basic introductory information on the units (previously White Mages and Cavalrymen, this scenario Elvish Shydes and Rangers) which is a major flaw of this campaign and which if provided would help to level out the playing field a bit.

It just strikes me as strange that a unit will say 'blades and spears are useless against these skeletons' then when a unit dies what does the player receive? Four level 2 Elvish Bodyguards (actually Rangers) which offer a melee attack of... blades and a ranged attack of...erm.. arrows. And then.. say a player sends three of these Bodyguards to attack a Skeleton using a ranged attack and what happens? Quite often the Skeleton collapses into a pile of bones.

In my mind as a newbie playing the scenario this somewhat confused me.

I'm told in the second scenario that Minister Hylas 'melts the bones of the Undead' and seeing Skeletons which I understand to be largely made up of bones I send him in for the attack. So Minister Hylas does his Gregorian Chants thing, the Skeleton does indeed suffer ill health (or rather, a detrimental change in physical condition) but then the Skeleton gets two of his friends over and before I know it Minister Hylas is no more and I'm informed that I've been defeated.

Even when there's other units nearby the Skeletons still have an issue with Minister Hylas.

Is there no way of swapping the Skeletons with the Skeleton Archers and churning out a few more of them? Or how about a keep of Walking Corpses, then two keeps of Skeleton Archers and then a final keep of Skeletons? That would keep any newbie player busy, but provide many more softer enemies with Skeletons at the end and give them enough to learn the basic mechanics of the game, including levelling up.

If they lose on these terms with basic information then hard cheese - they'll have to figure it out for themselves.

Just a suggestion.

kiss
Posts: 124
Joined: July 9th, 2014, 5:50 pm

Re: South Guard 4. Vale of Tears

Post by kiss » July 27th, 2014, 12:03 pm

Overview
First time I notice that team alignment is indicated (maybe it is team's name only and a hint?). Fight against undead then?
If this is the case, I'm afraid I do not have the proper units according the help.
My first thought was to follow the road to fight at the east, then south and finish with the isle. The map encourages to do that, villages too and this lets me time to know what I will fight.
But introduction doesn't point this way. I'm in front of a deal: follow my initial idea or try to use Ethiliel with her easy move.
Also if I count well, I have to fight at night!

Strategy: Kill as fast as possible Mal A'kai the dark mage. Send Ethiliel to the southeast to take some villages in the center and perhaps ends in the sage's village. Recall loyal's units, lvl 2 also as I really don't know how to do better. A quick and loyal peasant(it's for free) to take some villages. Level up a bowman.

Turn 1: Skeletons then!

Turn 2, 3, 4: Limiting ennemy's incomes reduce their power. Ethieliel is nearly surrounded. The north battleground is the first place that push me to really take care of position, night will come soon!

Strategy: It's time to meet the old sage. I can't imagine this last one do not have experience! Do my best to destroy skeletons.

Turn 5: Damned skeleton recover all xp each turn? I remember I though about this while fighting soulless in previous scenario but as I killed them almost on first attempt ...
I really don't know if I should retreat or not? Let's fight, no more strategy here!
The skeletons recovers nothing, I was wrong!

Turn 6: Let's see what is the old mage. Arf, nothing! I think I handle the battle there.

Trun 7: Time to kill Mal A'kai? Follow the scenario with Ethieliel?
Strategy: Ends the north fight, spend some moves to recover, recruit on the east keep. Send Ethieliel at south, at least to take some villages and disturb.

Turn 8:
Strategy: Key point for me with moves on north battle. Kill the skeleton while ending with weak units around mage to heal next turn and recruit?

Trun 9: Recruitment should be one southern hex?

Turn 10: More units. And they are invisible? Again something surprising.

Turn 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18: Over

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Civilian (beginner) 1.10.7

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10) 2

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
I'm totaly lost with that! Complete one of each, both of them, wait for an underlaying one?
Despite that, they are clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Ethiliel speak's confuse me a little and this is why I change my first plan.
As played, well done! Old mage story's traps Ethiliel!

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Nothing special with objectives.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10) 10
First real battle for me. I start to learn!

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Nothing about old mage at the end?
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Linthar
Posts: 77
Joined: September 14th, 2006, 12:16 am

Re: South Guard 4. Vale of Tears

Post by Linthar » July 28th, 2014, 3:18 am

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Soldier (aka the highest difficulty) 1.10.7

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
5.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
This is where the story really starts to get interesting. And I did laugh at Deoran's exasperation when he found out that Etheliel had a body guard she neglected to reveal until after some of his troops had died. Although it doesn't actually do much to make me like the elves.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The first wave of level 2 undead is rough. My army is still mainly units that do piercing damage, and the undead's keep is just the right distance apart from mine for the undead to reach my army in the middle of the night. After a few somewhat bloody turns though I was able to kill of the first wave of the undead and then the difficulty pretty much vanishes. The undead faction doesn't have enough money to summon many reinforcements, and the bandits were slowed enough by the mountains that they only arrived at the end of the fight with the undead, and were strung out in a long line of level 1 units that were easily defeated in 1's or 2's.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7. A good solid battle, let down only by the relatively easy second half of it.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
It's a solid scenario as it stands. The only thing I would consider would be possibly either letting the bandits hire level 2 units, or start them a little farther north. As it stands they are mostly pointless, being too weak to matter on their own and too far away to contribute to the main battle in time for them to matter.

nikita1996
Posts: 49
Joined: July 18th, 2015, 8:07 am

Re: South Guard 4. Vale of Tears

Post by nikita1996 » December 23rd, 2015, 9:29 am

Content Feedback wrote:(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
n
(1) 1.12.5 Hard
(2) 4. Not difficult but it needs some strategies. I have enough turns -- I finished the scenario in turn 26. I killed the first enemy king in turn 13 and the second one in turn 21. Maybe I should have moved Ethiliel earlier and quicker so I could have finished it earlier. The main problem you should think in the beginning is, how many warriors you should have in the east of your castle and how many you should have in the south. If you don't have enough warriors in the east, you'll fail at the first night. I think the army in the east to the south should be 2:1.
(3) Very clear.
(4) 8. Interesting.
(5) There are two challenges: One of them is to balance the number of the troops in the east and the south. The second one is, how to fight efficiently with the undead at night. (Thugs are good but they have melee attack only so they may die a lot.) Also, You should take the blue's villages as soon as possible without losing too many units. If you don't take those villages quickly, the enemy will be too strong to defeat.
(6) 7. This scenario has a good difficulty than most others in TSG. It's a bit challenging but not so hard.
(7) Maybe we can have more goals rather than only have one goal. The story says that the enemy took an elvish lord away. Maybe we can have a chase catching those undead while fighting with blue and green.
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Britannicus
Posts: 57
Joined: June 25th, 2017, 8:04 pm

Re: South Guard 4. Vale of Tears

Post by Britannicus » June 26th, 2017, 4:40 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?

Version 12.1, Challenging.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

7

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Crystal clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

6, pretty decent, better than most scenarios of the campaign.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Protecting Deoran and not underestimating those pesky Bone Shooters.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

6, pretty decent with several possible approaches.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

/

Konrad2
Posts: 844
Joined: November 24th, 2010, 6:30 pm

Re: South Guard 4. Vale of Tears

Post by Konrad2 » May 4th, 2018, 11:25 am

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?

Version 1.14.0, Soldier (Normal)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

5 (Undead are hard to beat with spears and blades)

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Crystal clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

6, I liked it. Except her bodyguards. They watch my men die before doing anything. :(

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Picking off the undead one by one

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

6, more than one way to play it.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

/
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I am a Ghost: I drain the life energy from other people to survive and am hated/feared by regular people. Non-regular people don't like me either though.

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