South Guard 9a - Vengeance

Feedback for the mainline campaign The South Guard.

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Re: South Guard 9a - Vengeance

Postby SBak » September 29th, 2013, 4:42 pm

(1) What [b]difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on? [/b]
Mainly easy but also medium 1.8.5 and 1.10.5

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
1 - just how difficult is it to move an Elvish Shyde to a tree in a forest?

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Not very, but having played Elves elsewhere I knew that attacking them even with level3 units would inevitably lead to defeat.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
This wasn't clear at all and not really that interesting. It was a case of getting spoilt brat Ethiliel to talk with a bunch of mentally unstable, antisocial Elves in a forest.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
None, because the Elves were attacking a unit furthest south with a Druid and Scouts, which was a bit of a giveaway.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
I don't think fun comes into it. Confusion yes, even puzzlement as this has got to be the strangest ending of all the mainline campaigns.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Maybe I'm wrong, as I'm not up on WML coding, don't have much experience of playing these sorts of games, but I get the distinct impression that this (and the previous scenarios) seemed like brilliant ideas at the time, but later on not so much.

The whole concept of Wesnoth is brilliant, it's a simple game with infinite possibilities, you've got a bit of RPG, D and D, and even chess. I can see the balances between the factions, the synchronicity and coordination between the campaigns and here at entry level three or four campaigns designed around giving new players control of easier units whilst giving them contact in gameplay with the others.

I don't think you could effectively change this scenario without making significant changes to the entire campaign. I get the impression that while the campaign starts very well and information gap aside the scenarios are adequate enough to develop a Loyalist army based on the Spearman, Bowman and Cavalryman lines. But then it seems to lose its way and (bearing in mind I've only played the Elvish branch) seems to go steadily downhill from the Choices In The Fog scenario.

I think there's ample opportunity to introduce more of the Loyalist faction - Heavy Infantrymen, Mages and even Fencers. This could start in the Vale of Tears and having met Ethiliel beforehand the entry of Brena, the knight errant from AToTB could be transferred to this scenario where he meets with Deoran and Sir Gerrick at the start, offers to help them clear the valley and the player gets the chance to recruit Heavy Infantrymen for the Undead. Maybe a turn or two later a Mage could be seen fleeing from the East and also offer to help clear the valley. This would of course be balanced up by giving both enemy leaders more gold and making the Undead leader a level 2 Dark Sorcerer.

You could even have a third option in A Choice In The Fog and choose to go it alone without either the Bandits or the Elves where you go after Mal M'Brin on your own perhaps meeting some friendly Dwarves on the other side of the mountains who help you fight against Orcs and lead you to the cave scenario.

You could, on your way back to Kerlath meet a bunch of hostile Drakes and for the final scenario find both Orcs and Bandits sacking Westin and have to lead Ethiliel back to the Elves.
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Re: South Guard 9a - Vengeance

Postby WesnothNewbie » December 18th, 2013, 2:33 pm

Content Feedback wrote:(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?


1. I played this on Wesnoth version 1.10.7, on medium difficulty.

2. It would have been pretty tricky if I had just attacked the elves and had them spawn--in fact I killed one elf and had to go back, else I wouldn't have been able to get Ethiliel on to the forest with new guards--but once you figure it out, it's really easy. (Maybe a 3: you have to watch out for those Elvish Riders.)

3. Pretty clear.

4. The dialogue was stereotypical and somewhat anti-climatic. The storyline was just stupid. I kill bandits and undead for them, and the elves repay me by trying to kill me? Anti-social brats, as another commentator said, but also unlike the elves: they're a peaceful race, not one prone to random attacks and treachery. Heck, I fought with Orcs in the Hammer of Thursagan, and they didn't betray me!

5. Major challenges... trying not to get Deoran killed I suppose.

6. I think it's about a 2. It is highly anti-climatic, stupid, and the gameplay itself is underwhelming. I mean, I've got three royal guards, three master bowmen, a merman warrior, an elvish hero, three elven archers, and not to mention my heroes at level 3 as well. And all I get to do is let a couple level 1 loyalists play punchbag while sending Ethiliel into a forest? That's just stupid.

7. I would completely change it. Instead of having the elves attack me, I'd much rather they play with me--perhaps a loyalist ally should be there as well--against a final, daring raid by bandits. (You could throw in a few undead as well, though I'm bored of fighting them.) The map would be large, filled with villages, choke-points and lots of forest. As it is, this scenario is terrible; it's quite a shame, considering the rest of the campaign was the easiest I've ever played, and perfect for beginners, IMO. Not long like HttT, and since newbies aren't good at levelling units, having free loyal rangers and mermen is a good idea too.
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Re: South Guard 9a - Vengeance

Postby Rhyss » March 23rd, 2014, 2:24 am

I have to say I agree with most of what I have read here. I played Wesnoth several years ago and greatly enjoyed it. Not sure if there even was more than just the main Campaign. With those fond memories I downloaded and installed Wesnoth for my son. He loved the South Guard campaign, but was nearly in tears over Vengeance. I had been helping him here or there on some of the Scenarios, but I will admit this one seemed weird to me. We restarted several times and only by chance failed to kill an Elf the first two turns and was able to run Etheilil to the tree. The ending was a complete let down for him. Fortunately he is still enjoying other Campaigns, but this one seems like a completely different person took over and wrote the final scenario. Truly strange.

Oh... Version 1.10.7
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Re: South Guard 9a - Vengeance

Postby kiss » July 29th, 2014, 8:43 pm

No turn limit?
It seems easy at first sight, but ... Some villages to take. I do not like the idea of a straight fight as presented by the enemies position! And this is kind of desperate fight for the elves. But i don't care, it's the last run, so I'll fight without restriction.

Strategy: Start fight from north, and push through south.

Turn 1, 2: first touch and it seems really easy ... what's behind that? Ok, spotted ...

Turn 7: And, here is defeat!

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Civilian (beginner) 1.10.7

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
10 Of course!

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
This is the end, not that much to say, a loss.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
I failed. I have the feeling something is wrong with the whole campaign, too easy all the time and then too difficult. It is too easy to create something like that!

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
1 According the previous parts, I do not understand such a difficult one.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Again I really don't know, something less devastating?
This should be explained whatever the way, it's the easiest mode and so far I think the main line was to show what may arise. And suddenly, without any advice, BAMMM ...

No replay available ... It was a rush to the tree and it failed

Edit to post the next try.

Let's try again. Ok, too easy in fact! An other great lesson :)
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Re: South Guard 9a - Vengeance

Postby Linthar » August 5th, 2014, 3:46 am

(1) What [b]difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?[/b]
Soldier (aka the highest difficulty) 1.10.7

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
Did you read a walkthrough? Then a 1. If you try to play this like a normal scenario because you can't read the developers mind. Then a 10.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
The objective is clear. On the other hand the fact that you have to not kill the elves unless you want to be drowned under an endless sea of reinforcements doesn't seem to be hinted anywhere at all.

(When I went to look at the campaign dialog page to refresh my memory for question 4 I find it included the following for this scenario
A Disciple Dies
Disciple of Mebrin: For every one of us you strike down, more will rise!

which does seem to be in the cfg file for the scenario, and would hint at what's going on. However this seems to be bugged. I do not recall this line ever triggering, and I even went back and loaded my start of scenario save, and killed three or four enemy elves over the course of about 2 turns. The reinforcements appeared silently, and the dialog never triggered.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
I'll admit that this is a logical outcome for the storyline. However this has to be the one of the least satisfying possible endings the campaign can possibly have. You help the elves out, and in return they kill far more humans, then the bandits ever killed elves, and relationships between the humans and elves are permanently ruined. Due to the actions of a mutual enemy to both factions none the less. A really depressing way to end the campaign. What's worse is that unless you play close attention to the dialog in the bandit path, it feels like the elf path ends with worse relations with the elves then the bandit path does. (If you pay attention to the plot in the bandit path, it does seem that relations with the elves isn't going up end any better, but the elf path highlights this heavily in the epilogue, while the bandit path drops that plot thread entirely for the last two scenarios so its easy to forgot. I did forgot this until I went back to reread the dialog as part of giving feedback on all the scenarios).

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Knowing that you can't kill the elves or you will be flooded with reinforcements and never reach the tree. Once you know that vital fact, the scenario can be won in a pitiful 3 turns, as the starting forces are nowhere near large enough to block Etheliel and the tree is very close.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
-1. There is no fun to be found in this scenario. It's a scenario in a strategy game built around fighting battles where you specifically have to not fight your enemy. And it's not even like it presents an interesting tactical challenge other then knowing that you are not supposed to fight. The target space is to close, and the opposition is to light to be any challenge at all. The concept could possibly be interesting on a different map, but it is an terrible idea to base the last level of the campaign on. You come into the level ready to put your army of leveled veterans to the ultimate test, get a bunch of extra units to use, including heavy infantry that you haven't had a chance to use at any point earlier in the campaign, and then you find out that you can't use any of that, as you aren't supposed to be fighting anything. It would be hard to think of an even less satisfying way to end a campaign.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
First of all fix the dialog to actually tell you killing the elves is a bad idea. Also move the spawn point for the elves to somewhere further south so the reinforcements don't immediately block you from reaching the tree, so the level is still winnable if you kill an elf or two. These are just short term fixes though to get the level to a point I would consider barely playable. Really this whole level needs to be scrapped and completely reimagined. I didn't find it remotely fun, looking briefly through the thread almost no one else found it remotely fun, and I don't think the concept can be made to work as I mentioned in my answer to 6. Honestly I would prefer that the plot is changed to be more satisfying as well as giving the scenario better gameplay, but if the ending needs to stay the same one possibility would be to change the objective to be to survive for a certain number of turns, while Etheliel makes her way to the tree offscreen. (I'm suggesting this because I noticed a few people giving this scenario a high fun ranking for playing the scenario by ignoring the objective and trying to fight the ever increasing horde of elves as long as possible, so by shifting the objective to survival, the gameplay would shift to focus on what people actually found fun in the scenario).
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Re: South Guard 9a - Vengeance

Postby Miles58 » August 27th, 2015, 11:36 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Easy 1.10.7 (I am a complete beginner)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
7 It is the only scenario I had to play twice. I should have known better and pay attention to the objective. But the Elves were so few at the beginning...

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
A bit confusing at the end (wasn't Ethiliel on our side?). It feels quite a lot artificial. But campaign stories normally suck.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Obviously, to reverse the strategy and to understand I had to create diversions by sacrificing expendable units. I started (like everyone) trying to put up a sensible strategy for crushing the enemies... After a while, seeing throngs of Elves coming up, I retreated to the fortress and tried to defend there. After a couple of turns I realized that my only hope was in a quick strike at the beginning, made possible by a diversion. So I restarted, recruited expendable units etc. etc. (I didn't know the scenario was the last one).

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
9 Very much fun. You learn not to get stuck to a single way of thinking. Solving problems by overturning them is always a lot of fun.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Just leave it as it is. You might perhaps change the ending, or add a new finale with a true great battle between men and elves (or elves against an alliance of men and elves or whatever). I mean, a scenario that one cannot win with a sleight of hand. But please go on with the good work and give us scenarios that one can win only by giving up the obvious strategy and looking at things in a fresh way. For example, a scenario that one can win only by luring the enemy into a certain kind of terrain etc.
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Re: South Guard 9a - Vengeance

Postby shadow12 » January 17th, 2016, 5:44 am

Battle for Wesnoth, The South Guard, Scene 9a: Vengeance
Ethiliel, an Elvish Shyde from the Citadel of Elrath in Aethenwood
Deoron, a Mounted General in the South Guard and Soldier of Wesnoth

E: Will you destroy the bandit invaders in out forest, defeat the undead, and help us find our great mage leader?
D: My men and I are at your service, Ethiliel. We will follow you into battle!
E: ...Are they defeated, Deoron?
D: Yes. We have defeated the bandits and the undead. The forests are safe for the time being.
E : Thank you, we are in your debt. You are honorable men. Let us part in peace.
D: You are welcome...but...wait! An innocent farmer was just killed right in front of us! Now the elves are attacking us?!?
E: They do not understand the situation. I will parlay with them and explain that you are our allies. But be warned, if you kill even one of my kin, they will send 5 to take his place!
D: ... I am glad that skirmish was over quickly. Thank you, Ethiliel, for the quick resolution. Wait ...what is this I see? Some of my soldiers are dead!
E: Deoron, it is no secret that humans have also done great harm to the elves in the past.
D: My men were guilty of nothing more than risking their lives for you and your people! The evil men who tortured Mebrin are the ones who should be found and punished!
E: I have seen what your people are capable of. I decree that humans will stay out of our forest. If we find any humans in our green woods, they will taste death.
D: Why do you speak so?!? If I am not mistaken, an hour ago you said we were allies. Am I wrong?
E: I have decided there will be no more negotiations between us. We will stop sending ambassadors to your peace councils and ....
D: Wait, let's think this through. A strong alliance would benefit both of us. The undead may return to our lands. Ethiliel, you are not making any sense...
E: Winter is coming, Deoron, I have to go.
D: ?
Last edited by shadow12 on January 17th, 2016, 7:39 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: South Guard 9a - Vengeance

Postby Britannicus » June 26th, 2017, 11:54 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?

Version 1.12.1, Challenging

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

Once you remember you musn't kill any Elves? 1.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Pretty clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Boring and infuriatingly inconsistent at the same time, which is actually quite a feat.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Nothing.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

1. It's just a terrible, anti-climactic, boring scenario. Definitely the worst finale of any mainline campaign, quite possibly even the worst scenario overall. The idea of having to avoid killing enemies is interesting, but the scenario is just no fun whatsoever.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Don't really know, I can't really imagine a solution to this scenario's massive problems without basically starting from scratch.
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