Interaction of Quick with Strong and Resilient

[stegyre]

First time poster, first post, so forgive some prefatory remarks:

First, let me say this is an awesome game. Kudos to the developers and others who have helped to make it what it is.

Second, I hope this is the right forum for this post. It certainly seemed to fit here, best. I also looked through the first six pages of posts and tried a search, and the topic does not appear to have been addressed.

The "bug": I have noticed that it matters whether a unit is "quick, resilient/strong" versus "resilient/strong, quick." It's a minor difference (1 hp for any unit whose hit points are close to the dividing line: 30, 50, 70, etc.), but I doubt that it was intended. For example, a quick, strong Footpad will have 30 hp -1 (5% of 30, rounded, for quickness) +1 (for strength) = 30; if he has the misfortune of being strong, quick, instead, he will have 30 hp +1 (for strength) -2 (5% of 31, now rounded UP, as the fraction is greater than 0.5) = 29.

(I reproduced the above example in HttT Isle of the Damned, version 1.4.2, running on a Windows 2000 Professional machine.)

The situation occurs even more frequently with resilient and quick, as the +5 hp (or more, at level ups) from resilient is more likely to push a character over the dividing line.

I suspect something similar happens to healthy dwarves, but forgive me: I've not yet played any dwarf-intensive scenarios.

As stated above, I doubt this sort of interplay was intended. I would suggest "fixing" it by making the game always apply the "quick" hp modifier before any of the other hp modifiers (if it is really that easy).

[Mist]

You're wrong, this is intended. Not sorting traits but applying them in order drawn is a feature deliberately coded in this way. We're aware it works like this, and don't plan to change it.

[Yogibear]

This is a known issue and it is wanted as well .

The reason behind that is mostly, that traits make units more diverse. And the same traits in another order make them even more diverse .

[stegyre]

Okeydokey: it is what it is, then.

I'll just remember: Q&R = keepers; R&Q = fodder.

[turin]

Well, it's usually only the difference of an HP or two, at most, so I doubt it's really worth paying attention to. Yes, it could make a difference occasionally, but if a unit has an opportunity to get a kill you shouldn't deny it to him just because he's quick before resilient.

[Mica]

You mean resilient before quick.

[Gyra_Solune]

Well, I can see the argument that it makes units more diverse, but in this case it looks like it just means a unit is outright better or worse depending on which order the traits are applied in. I like to think every combination of traits has its uses even if it's not ideal for every unit - while you probably don't want strong and resilient on an Elvish Archer, it still has applications for making it more survivable and versatile even if just by a little bit, which in some cases is more desirable than quick or dextrous. But in this case the only difference between the two combinations is that one has 1 less HP - there's never any situation in which you'd really want that.

[Iris]

You realize you just dug up a thread from about 8 years ago and that none of these people are around anymore, right?

[revolting_peasant]

As I've just filed this as an issue, and got referred here - can someone please explain:

1. Why it makes sense, linguistically and vis-a-vis the player, for a "Resilient, Quick" unit to be any different than a "Quick, Resilient" unit?
2. What was the purpose or benefit in choosing to implement traits this way?

[gnombat]

Personally, I find it a bit strange that the order of traits makes a difference, but I can't see a good solution that wouldn't complicate things considerably (remember the KISS principle).

[Atreides]

Never noticed this effect before. Interesting mainly for custom addons where one can pick one's traits or they can be added later.

N.B. Always pick quick first.

[max_torch]

hmm, my two cents, what if
you just think of it like how in genetics, two genes side by side swapping places can still produce the same output but have a very very subtle difference in gene expression (the output) just because the positions are swapped.

Mechanically speaking, it does not seem to conflict with the spirit of the game IMO. Lorewise, it makes sense for such subtle diversities to exist, for the same set of genes/traits to be expressed slightly differently.

[revolting_peasant]

@max_torch: But it's not like in Genetics. It's English language text.

Also - there is no subtle diversity. If diversity was the issue, HP would be randomized given traits... and the "+1 HP" part of traits would be basically meaningless.