Scenario 15: The Lost General

Feedback for the mainline campaign Heir to the Throne.

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kiss
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Re: Scenario 15: The Lost General

Post by kiss » October 17th, 2014, 5:11 pm

Heir to the Throne - The Lost General - Fighter (Beginner) 1.11.16.
Never played before.

Storyline
Dwarves kingdom is well introduced in the previous scenario. I've enjoyed the playable interlude, it is a good idea.
The Sceptre is named more often ... anyone should be aware of our quest now!
Dialogs and comments are welcome, they help a lot to dive in the story.

Events a Dwarf in a village.

The map A maze.

Strategy
Nothing more than exploring.
Use the new Dwarf units and try to advance few veterans.

Comments
First try: not well prepared, delfador is dead. I've forgotten cave needs a special strategy because of the lack of space and slowness. Also I've released the undead too early. Not a good idea!
New Strategy
Help Geldar first, and let the undead as they are.
Comments No reload, no restart
There is a lot of events!
I've don't really seen what the earthquake modify: west undead entrance?
I've not been able to enter the water void nor visit the south part of the lake. I've sent a Merman there, but lost it stupidly ...
Those allied Dwarves were near to steal Lionel's death!

An interesting scenario, not that difficult at it seems at first try. However not easy to have a good grasp of what's going on before reaching the great hall. I'm afraid it should been difficult to get xp if the dwarves are helped too much. As soon as they are near a fight, there is no way to control them and any tactics may fall down!

Those dwarves are surprisingly strong!

Starting gold+(carried over): 330+(671)/?/?/?.
Finish turn: 36/64, bonus gold: 558.
Recruit 9: 7 Dwarvish Fighter, 2 Dwarvish Thunderer,Elvish Archer,Elvish Fighter,Elvish Scout,Elvish Shaman,Horseman,Mage,Mermaid Initiate,Merman Fighter,Merman Hunter,Thief.
Recall 8:Elvish Archer,Elvish Captain, 2 Elvish Druid, 1 Elvish Enchantress,Elvish Fighter,Elvish Hero,Elvish Marksman,Elvish Shaman,Elvish Sorceress, 1 Footpad,Fugitive,Horseman,Knight,Mage,Mermaid Initiate,Mermaid Priestess,Merman Fighter, 1 Merman Hunter,Merman Warrior, 1 Outlaw,Red Mage, 1 Rogue,Thief,Thug, 1 White Mage.

XP tracking.
Assassin lvl 3: 2/120
Dwarvish Fighter lvl 1: 35/41, 7/41, 3/33, 0/33
Dwarvish Steelclad lvl 2: 6/74, 43/74
Dwarvish Thunderer lvl 1: 17/32, 0/32
Delfador Elder Mage lvl 5: 36/240
Elvish Druid lvl 2: 58/80, 21/64
Elvish Enchantress lvl 3: 43/180
Kalenz Elvish Lord lvl 2: 95/120
Fugitive lvl 3: 59/120
Konrad Lord lvl 3: 132/150
Moremirmu Mage of Light lvl 3: 1/150
Outlaw lvl 2: 0/62

R.I.P. 2: 1 Dwarvish Fighter, 1 Merman Hunter
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Ranger
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Re: Scenario 15: The Lost General

Post by Ranger » April 19th, 2015, 7:07 pm

I couldnt finish the scenario because after I completed the main objective: "Kill all enemy leaders." nothing happens. Some sort of bug? :|

P.S. That's not a compressed replay. Thats a normal replay file inside an archive.
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Calling a spear a spoon and then saying "our spoons are different, WINR," is kind of unsatisfying, isn't it?

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SigurdFireDragon
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Re: Scenario 15: The Lost General

Post by SigurdFireDragon » March 18th, 2016, 5:04 am

Here's for Scenario 14 Plunging_into_the_Darkness first:
Played on 1.12.5 Hero (Normal) 226 gold

When I saw there was hidden gold, I went back & played a second time. I could have done a better job fighting the spider.
HttT-Plunging_into_the_Dark..._replay-T17-2V0.gz
1.12.5 Normal
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Scenario 15 The Lost General
Played on 1.12.5 Hero (Normal) 676 gold

I think there should be some mention of the dwarvish guardsmen if you save the Dwarf leader. Something like additional objective: special bonus; probably when you trigger some dwarf dialog and see that they are there.

I was suspicious of the whirlpool and sent an Elvish Shyde to investigate. Nothing. After I finished the scenario on turn 31, read the wml and saw about the loyal, so reloaded on turn 31 to recruit a merfolk to go to the whirlpool to get him. Then near the end realized I was on track for way too much carryover gold, so I decided to do some unit recruiting trait farming to make quick units for my recall list.
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Caladbolg
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Re: Scenario 15: The Lost General

Post by Caladbolg » March 25th, 2016, 8:23 pm

I'll start off by saying that scenario 14 (Plunging into the darkness) was the best one as far as dialog is concerned. Extra gold is also welcome. Maybe making a secret passage more visible? Most people will probably go to the skeleton but will move on because nothing happened. You could add a small comment about the walls looking strange when a unit reaches the skeleton.

Anyways, The Lost General:
(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
1.12.5, medium.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
4.5. It can be either an easy walk (4) or a long, boring hassle (5) depending on how your ally fares.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear as a bell.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Clear, but I have some objections:
1) The whole whirpool thing... well, actually, I'll get to that later... but it is weird.
2) Lionel... If I recall correctly, Delfador knew him (from Delfador's Memoirs). Why isn't he trying to talk to him? Why are they not informing him that Konrad is the heir to the throne? He was a loyal general, surely he wouldn't try to kill an heir? Why wouldn't he help them get the scepter, thus finally fulfilling the quest he was sent on?
3) "Argh! I am vanquished!" -every cartoon villain ever Lionel, the finest general of Wesnoth
4) "I am destroyed, but my mission must be completed." Exactly! So, again, if he wants to complete his quest, why not help Konrad from the start? Delfador knew him, so he would know that they could get him to help by telling him that the heir is searching for the scepter.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Trying to properly distribute my forces so I could effectively deal with both enemies at the same time.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
3. This is largely due to personal preference and I see from other reviews that people seem to either love it or hate it. In my opinion, scenarios with big maps can either be epic and full of different and interesting scenery or boring and dragged out. Open maps such as Northern Winter tend to be the former while underground ones tend to be the latter, and this was unfortunately the case here. The map is large and all your units move slowly (dwarves due to low movement points, others due to high movement costs) which results in a lot of slow, boring movement.

Because the orcs are far away, the problems happening on that front can be especially tedious as they might require you to respond by getting more units which will again need a lot of time to get to the battlefront. In other words, whenever the situation changes it takes a century for it to be resolved if you haven't sent out enough units initially (but if you use a lot of units from the start, then you can end relatively quickly so it's not that big of an issue.) The undead were also tedious because of that bottleneck. I mean, it's not even strategically challenging because a simple unit rotation around the healer will keep all enemies from overwhelming you. Instead of a challenge, those undead amount to little more than an XP factory.

And then there's the whirpool which (while interesting and rewarding) relies on the player either making the extremely idiotic decision to use mermen in caves, or on the foreknowledge- that is not a good thing.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Let's see...
1) Move the player closer to the west/move orcs and the ally dwarf closer to the east. That would resolve a lot of tediousness I think.
2) Widen the bottleneck with the undead. With it being so narrow the undead cannot exit properly and pose very little threat, making them a pointless and boring addition to an already quite boring scenario.
The other suggestions are longer so spoilers:
Spoiler:
I played the scenario 2 times. The first time I beat it but I had gone way overboard with my units and ended up with 4-5 dwarves with no XP which were completely unnecessary. I also missed out on the Ulf because I didn't have a merman and lost my ally, costing me guardsmen. I thought it was a bad attempt overall so I went for another round. I'm not posting the replay to the 1st attempt because it was very straightforward and extremely uninteresting.
For the 2nd attempt,
the usual:
-starting gold: 846
-recruits(10): 7x Dwarvish Fighter, 2x Dwarcish Thunderer, Gryphon Rider
-recalls(7): Bandit(loyal), Druid, Enchantress, Shyde, 2x White Mage, Mer Warrior (loyal, trident)
Turn by turn:
-turns taken: 23/60
-no losses, no reloads, 2 attempts total
-advancements(3): Fighter->Steelclad, Thunderer->Thunderguard, Enchantress->Sylph
-end: 553 gold, 18/18 villages
-carryover: 517 (I think, not sure...)
-XP:
~1/2: Fighter, Thunderer
~1/3: White Mage
~2/3: Mer Warrior, Steelclad, Fighter
~4/5: Druid
~close: White Mage, Fighter, Bandit
-dmg dealt: -4%
-dmg taken: +11%
Bad luck again :(
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LordWolfDan
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Re: Scenario 15: The Lost General

Post by LordWolfDan » October 17th, 2018, 6:32 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?

- 1.14.5, Beginner

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

- 6

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

- Clear, find out what lurks in caves and kill the enemies

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

- When Lionel narrates his backstory, makes you feel sorry for him. Therefore, the dialogue is very well written

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

- Undead, but it'd have been tougher if I hadn't leveled up mages and elvish enchantress from earlier and some dwarwish fighters (two mages of light, one silver mage and one arch mage. Also, elvish enchantress leveled up to elvish slyph)

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

- 8

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

- The troll should have ended up having more income and make the fight against his soldiers more challenging

Konrad2
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Re: Scenario 15: The Lost General

Post by Konrad2 » August 20th, 2019, 9:51 am

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

1.15.0, Champion (Challenging)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

4

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Clear.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

None.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

7

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Bring back the second exit for the undead so they can (slowly) leave if I don't remove the cave-in.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

No.
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Poison
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Re: Scenario 15: The Lost General

Post by Poison » August 30th, 2019, 10:10 am

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

1.14.7, Champion (Challenging), 566 starting gold.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

About a 4.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Clear. But i don't understand why Lionel had to fight Konrad, it's just stupid that's what it is.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

None,surprisingly, dwarves fair well versus lv2 undead with a little help from healers.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

8

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Give the player the option to keep Lionel if he wants.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

No.
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Ceesem
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Re: Scenario 15: The Lost General

Post by Ceesem » September 14th, 2019, 11:33 pm

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
1.14.7, normal, a little over 500 starting gold

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
3 - the battle with the undead could cost a unit if you're not careful, otherwise nah. I wonder if the ally and the orcs didn't destroy each other more than intended by the time I got there.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
MAIN REASON THAT I WRITE THIS POST: see, i defeated the orc leader on turn 16. I think: now what? Zero idea on what to do! I see there's something in the SE but blocked by walls. You can't go there through whirlpool (that was my first idea, used Sylph to check if it does anything, nothing, though now I read there's a secret there if you use mermen... it's a bit of a moon-logic if you ask me especially since base is so far away that mermen must crawl for god knows how long, but hey it's a "secret" so w/e, hopefully I don't handicap myself too much), I thought maybe NW behind the orc/troll base is some kind of portal; almost all my army went there, but it's a dead end. It's turn 19 I'm like WTF, the game must have bugged out so I googled what you're supposed to do. I had to reload so I don't move all my army north-west. IMHO the earthquake should come EITHER at 20 turn mark OR after you defeat the orctroll leader WHICHEVER COMES FIRST. Bad design if it looks like a bug rather than a feature. Also felt like cheating to me knowing in advance what would happen and positioning the army appropriately (or at least it's a spoiled first-time experience). The hidden second entrance, I'm not sure about that either. At first I tried to defeat the Undead the hard way through the western narrow passage/lake, because I wouldn't have ever figured out that there was another way if it wasn't spoiled to me, but it was so tedious that I ended up opening the eastern passage anyway.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
I generally don't like the narrative that Wesnoth is going for so w/e. What were the Dwarves doing there though, wasn't this passage supposed to be abandoned? The dwarves that joined you weren't in contact them?

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
None apart those mentioned in (3)

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
Because of the problems I mentioned in (3) it is to me the least liked scenario so far and while I like Allies in general and the sense of unknown, I can't rate it more than 3.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Already mentioned it but I'll repeat: the earthquake should come EITHER at 20 turn mark OR after you defeat the trollorc leader WHICHEVER COMES FIRST. Maybe add some more clues as to the second entrance to the undead.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
I mentioned why I reloaded in (3). But I haven't lost a game.

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josteph
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Re: Scenario 15: The Lost General

Post by josteph » September 15th, 2019, 4:33 am

Ceesem wrote:
September 14th, 2019, 11:33 pm
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Already mentioned it but I'll repeat: the earthquake should come EITHER at 20 turn mark OR after you defeat the trollorc leader WHICHEVER COMES FIRST. Maybe add some more clues as to the second entrance to the undead.
There's a hint already: if you sent any units at all down the southern corridor (from the starting keep) one of them would have said There is a big cave-in south of here. Personally, I discovered the undead this way on my very first playthrough, a few turns into the scenario.

That's not to say we can't add more hints, in the case that the player has defeated the trolls (either all their units, or just the leader) before discovering the undead - if you have specific suggestions could you post them here please? (This thread is for feedback, not for design) We could do, say, an extra line of dialog, or we could end the scenario there and then but have Lionel attack you from behind in a future scenario...
Ceesem wrote:
September 14th, 2019, 11:33 pm
At first I tried to defeat the Undead the hard way through the western narrow passage/lake
Alternative strategy:

Ceesem
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Re: Scenario 15: The Lost General

Post by Ceesem » September 16th, 2019, 8:50 am

josteph wrote:
September 15th, 2019, 4:33 am
There's a hint already: if you sent any units at all down the southern corridor (from the starting keep) one of them would have said There is a big cave-in south of here. Personally, I discovered the undead this way on my very first playthrough, a few turns into the scenario.
That's strange, I've sent most of my army south and I don't remember anything of sorts (except for the sign "guest quarters" which I don't think works alone but in conjunction with the above message? idk). Could be I accidentally skipped the dialogue by clicking fast after issuing an order that triggered it, which has happened before, though usually I notice the split second text box and reload (not aware of any dialogue log function in the game).

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