Scenario 15: The Lost General

Feedback for the mainline campaign Heir to the Throne.

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Buddy Jimm
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Re: Scenario Review: The Lost General

Post by Buddy Jimm » April 21st, 2008, 5:16 pm

I think the intermission scenarios should still have threads for feedback. While Plunging and similar scenarios are small, there may still be room for things to add, or feedback about dialog -- for example, I'd like to suggest expansion on the back-and-forth between the dwarves and Kalenz a bit.

Anyway...

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

Medium, 1.3.17

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

5. The looser terrain has improved the cave battles of this campaign considerably, maintaining the challenges of shrouded combat and troop rotation without drawing it out needlessly. The battle against Lionel is slow, but at least the combination of water, cave, and a village to fight over make it more interesting than the end of Elensefar.

Advanced enemies make for a challenge, but the dwarves have enough of an advantage that you can overcome it without recalling a ton of heroes.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Excellent.

(5) What were your major challenges in completing the scenario?

Cave battles and dwarves are probably something of a double-whammy for the new player. Dwarves are well-prepared for the challenge of advanced Orcs/Trolls/Undead, but you have to know how to use them -- Thunderers are definitely the weapon of choice against the orcs & trolls, but an all-or-nothing without Marksman used to make me hesistant to recruit them(though in fact, I should have been recruiting MORE Thunderers; the gun is still high damage when it hits, and a single shot isn't so bad when you're up against the slowing nets of Pillagers).

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

7. It's a big map still, but thanks to the road/villages, it's a nice fresh challenge to the player, which is a real 180 to the cave battles of yesteryear.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Maybe the final push to Lionel could be improved, but I can't think of anything specific to suggest.
After death, the doctor.

zyx
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Joined: May 2nd, 2008, 9:29 pm

Re: Scenario Review: The Lost General

Post by zyx » May 2nd, 2008, 10:48 pm

(1) Medium - 1.4.1
(2) 3
(3) Clear
(4) Clear and interesting
(5) No defeated units.
(6) 5
(7)

Trucidation
Posts: 10
Joined: December 31st, 2008, 7:22 am

Re: Scenario Review: The Lost General

Post by Trucidation » January 3rd, 2009, 2:41 am

scott wrote:(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Medium, 1.4.6
scott wrote:(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
7, pretty tough especially since you're trying out new guys and your old ones don't move too good in cave terrain. Not to mention it's cramped as heck.
scott wrote:(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Understandable.
scott wrote:(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Nice. Loved the bit with the general, although he seemed too quick to relent afterwards especially considering how his hatred imprisoned him there in undeath. Maybe make him thankful for releasing him from undeath or something.
scott wrote:(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
I don't like units dying, and that kinda extends to allies. Seeing the lil' blue guys getting mowed down by the orcs was just painful. Especially since they'd just keep on dying and giving exp to the enemy. Ugh. Also, getting my healers to the front was slow. I had to sacrifice a few new dwarven recruits (sorry guys!) to keep a lid on the situation.
scott wrote:(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7. Surprisingly, it wasn't all bad. It was actually a nice challenge, rather than a frustrating one. I'd have loved the tunnels to be wider though. Or maybe the map larger: when I finally explored the place, it turns out that it's actually pretty small. A few more bottlenecks would've been nice, since right now if you hold the cathedral area you can pretty much stave off the enemy until you're all healed up and ready to go on.

Also, Lionel is in a bad place. A Very Bad Place (tm). I triggered the cave-in from the "Guest Quarters" signpost, saw the undead, went "oh &#$%^", and immediately plugged the area with mages. Which turned the surprise ambush into a cakewalk. He kept sending undead up only to be blasted to bits. When the other opening finally triggered, he hadn't enough units left to send that way, and by that time I'd already taken care of the orcs, so my allies (blue) also started pouring down Lionel's throat.
scott wrote:(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Give everyone else more breathing space? Right now if you time it right and rush with a good mix of dwarves, it's not too hard to take the initiative and bottle up the enemy.

LPhilosoFEE
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Re: Scenario Review: The Lost General

Post by LPhilosoFEE » April 16th, 2009, 2:03 am

1) version: wesnoth-1.6a-win32 on Medium

2) challenge: 5="fun challenge" It was my second time through, and I knew to make a large number of Dwarf Fighters. Without prior knowledge of the location of the collapsed wall trigger, this level is very challenging at Medium

3) scenario objectives: clear enough. However, requirements for unlocking Guardsman recruits is not as clear as the "gryphon's eggs" segment, for example

4) dialog: I liked the general's storyline, but the sideline could perhaps be a little stronger. (I mentioned these points in a user forum but I'll past them again here)
  • A speedy character sometimes sees friendly units and has dialog with them, then comments the triggered "these passages have been used recently." Would make more sense if the triggered text happened first
  • There is end dialog with the friendly dwarf leader even though he was never introduced, and even in the case that he wasn't revealed. (with no screen scrolling, I often just figured one of my dwarves talking.) Might be nice to have a reveal trigger "Thank you for your assistance here at this remote outpost." This could also serve as an intro if/when he wasn't revealed during play
  • This dwarf leader unlocks Guardsman but doesn't appear to recruit them himself (can't recall if he personally was one). Might make more sense thematically with guardsman around
5) most challenging: the cramped map. Fights in passage-ways made me think about cycling who was at front, and about timing when trying to assault

6) fun level: above average, credit to the triggers & dialog. (Could be even better!) Plus, everyone loves a good dungeon crawl ;)

7) recommended changes: (see 4. above) Also
  • Might be nice if a reason were given/hinted as for why flying units (I had a Shyde) can't pass over the void
  • Would be cool if certain attacks could push a unit backwards instead/in place of injuring such that they fell into the pit, but obviously that would change the entire game dynamic

dELFador
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Re: Scenario Review: The Lost General

Post by dELFador » May 24th, 2009, 1:30 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
medium. 1.7
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
4.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
kill all enemy leaders, the undead surprised me at first . (and no, I never did care much about the scenario titles.)
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
lionel helping me was a bit of a surprise.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
none.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
none.

my strategy was to have 12 dwarf fightes and a white mage move north, have an elf shyde and my elite go south, when my shyde accidently found the undead, I used the cave to let my highwayman (with impact) and great mage fight the undead 1 on 1.

Cornuthaum
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Re: Scenario Review: The Lost General

Post by Cornuthaum » February 17th, 2010, 12:05 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Medium, 1.6.5

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
7 - Cave + bad terrain = Sad panda.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
"Defeat all enemy leaders". Just.... WHERE are they, argle bargle.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Del: "I AM DELFADOR THE GREAT! TREMBLE BEFORE MY WRATH!" - Those dwarves seem to have forgotten that if you encounter a world-weary old man in the company of a self-proclaimed king, that old man can probably kick twenty different kinds of butt before breakfast.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Surviving the flood of undead and orcs, respectively, in the massively unfavourable terrain

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
1 - I hate cave levels in a way that I cannot express on this forum without violating good behaviour rules.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
... make it not a cave level. Give the dwarves a healing unit... dunno. MY real beef with this level is that my healers are crawling along and lagging far, far behind the freshly recruited - and much appreciated - dwarves. :

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Sam-Lloyd
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Re: Scenario Review: The Lost General

Post by Sam-Lloyd » June 10th, 2010, 12:34 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Challenging 1.8.1

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
6

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Ok

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Well, if you want to go through the next scenario, you MUST manage to keep the Dwarf Lord alive. I had no idea about this in my first try.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
2, I never like the idea of recalling a merman in a cave !!!

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
The life or dead of the Dwarf Lord is a very essential part. We need to get some hints to rescue him.
Attachments
HttT-The_Lost_General_replay.gz
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BubbleScreen
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Re: Scenario Review: The Lost General

Post by BubbleScreen » July 15th, 2010, 2:37 am

Before we begin, I would like to say that I have not the faintest clue how to tackle
Spoiler:
(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Medium, 1.6

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario?
4, although could be as high as 6-7 if you accidentally open Lionel's chamber at a bad moment. And the 4 is in part from keeping your Dwarven ally alive.
Level your shamans, boys and girls, because Sylphs and Shydes can actually navigate the underground, and boy are they helpful.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Kill them and take their stuff!

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Delfador is not to be trifled with! Interesting yes, but odd to discover friendly dwarves only to say "these passages seem to have been used recently." Maybe trigger that earlier.
Lionel is cool.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Making headway against the trolls. Lionel himself isn't so bad because you have impact damage galore from the Dwarves. Steelclads just tear through his skeletons. Delfador and Kalenz's attacks are just icing on the cake.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is?
7 - This is what a cave scenario should be- not too cramped, but still feels like fighting underground.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Make the void unwalkable. More dialogue with the Dwarven leader, maybe some hint about Lionel before you meet him.

roman_sharp
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Re: Scenario Review: The Lost General

Post by roman_sharp » July 16th, 2010, 6:55 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

Normal, 1.8.3

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

6, normal

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

If you didn't released undead early, it's somewhat confusing where to look for second enemy leader.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Good.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Find second enemy leader and defeat the undead

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

7

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Give player some clue about undead... insert some words about "corpse smell" or something...

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GagarinGambit
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Re: Scenario 15: The Lost General

Post by GagarinGambit » February 11th, 2011, 1:55 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Hard, 1.8.4

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
6, challenging

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
They can't get any clearer

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
It's clear and satisfactory.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Fighting in two fronts, and trying to hold the enemies until reinforcements arrive (I began with little gold and split my troops between the two caverns, so I had roughly 4-5 troops in each front against hordes of orcs/undead). Without healers and taking advantage of the terrain, it wouldn't be possible - but the challenge is part of the fun!

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
9, it's very hard to get any more fun. An underground map requiring new strategies; shroud; using dwarves for the first time; scripted events; decent dialogue; carefully designed map, with many strategic points; challenging; what more can you ask?

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
None, for me this was the best one so far.
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shadowblack
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Re: Scenario 15: The Lost General

Post by shadowblack » February 25th, 2011, 4:54 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.9.4, Normal

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
2 very easy, as I had a lot of gold and could afford to lose a few of my newly-recruited dwarves

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Fine.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
None, really

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7 – it’s different from previous scenarios and calls for new tactics

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Let Lionel’s loyal Revenants be there from the start rather than appearing when the player first sights Lionel

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Kalenz got killed by a lucky Revenant

Thoughts:
This scenario proved easier than I expected – dwarves are quite good against skeletons, especially with Konrad’s Leadership, and the undead couldn’t take advantage of their level 2s due to the narrow passages so they had to fight my units 1-on-1. The orcs and trolls caused me some trouble, but not too much thanks to my ally, and once their units were killed the leader was easy prey. I ended up delaying my victory by a few turns in order to get the ulf.

P.S.: There are some errors in the replay. The reasons are explained here
Attachments
HttT-The_Lost_General_replay.gz
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Faello
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Re: Scenario 15: The Lost General

Post by Faello » June 18th, 2011, 5:22 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

Challenging (Champion), 1.9.6, no saves/reloads, 228 starting gold

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

5.

15:The Lost General is a tricky scenario, so I'll describe it by the early, mid- and late game stages.

EARLY GAME: Player starts in the [E] keep and needs to recruit some dwarves and mix them with his loyal veterans to maintain economic balance, since most of the vilages are in the western part of the map and some time will pass before Konrad's army will reach them. At the beginning, it's good to sent a loyal merman, Kalenz and some gryphon to the [SW] tunnel and move the core of the army to the [NW] tunnel - it's the quickest and the best way to reach our allies - dwarves led by Geldar (Dwarvish Lord, [N] keep). Geldar has 150gp and recruits mostly dwarvish fighters, that can hold their positions just as long, as you need to enter the combat with your units, since dwarves are pressed by the Brugg's (Troll Warrior, [W] keep) army, that is much more powerful (410gp worth stack of lvl2 units).

In the south, it's important to NOT GO ANYWHERE NEAR THE SOUTHERN WALL (27,24 hex) once Kalenz and gryphon rider will reach the tunnel corner, since it will collapse and open the road to the undeads - it would raise this scenario difficulty level a lot at this point.

MIDDLE GAME: Our army should engange Northeners and slowly fight them off with the help of the Burlin (Dwarvish fighter) that comes out of the underground lake once we'll capture the 17,24 village with the gryphon rider. He's under AI control, but still can be indirectly used to finish off the orcs easily by feeding him with the heavily wounded units. Since he's intelligent, he can lvl up easily and is very useful after that. During the battle in the main cave, it's very important to protect Geldar's life, since his surival is connected with a nice bonus at the end of the scenario. In the south, gryphon can pass the lake and capture 5 villages quckly, which gives a significant eco-boost. Once the Northeners army will be destroyed and their king killed, player should move all his units (except loyal merman going to the underground lake) to the already mentioned corner in the southern tunnel.

LATE GAME: Merman goes to the whirlpool hex (13,22) and takes the crazy dwarf back with him - Ulfdain <lvl1, loyal, resilient, ulfserker :!: > might be crazy, but is a worthy addition to the loyal units core. You never know when you might need an ulfserker :wink:

Once the Konrad's forces will reach the southern tunnel corner, it will collapse and realease the undead forces that were trapped that all that time. Undead commander, Lionel (Death Knight, keep) has 360gp at the beginning of this scenario, but if not engaged asap, he will waste over 100gp on the initial recruit upkeep, thus making him much easier target. He recruits mostly lvl2 units and is hardly a challenge for the player's elites.

[HINT]If Geldar has survived, player will get the ability to recruit dwarvish guardsmen - the best lvl1 defensive unit - in the following scenarios :!:

Finished this one in turn 26/54.

2 losses, 26 kills

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

They're clear, altough it would be nice to know that saving Geldar will give players some bonus reward.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Very interesting. Wesnoth campaigns needs more of the enviroment description like the desciption of the main cave in this one.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?


Dealing with the initial Northeners attack.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)


9.

It's probably the best cave-scenario I've played until now. There's a lot of action, scenario isn't linear, a lot depends on AI vs. AI combat, but player can influence it and there's a semi-secret economy-boost and a secret loyal unit to get in this one. I really liked it :?

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?


No changes required, it's great as it is.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

I had to restart two times to get the general idea what to do in this one, no saves/reloads as already stated.

Replay attached:
Attachments
HttT-The_Lost_General_replay.gz
The Lost General replay, Challenging (Champion) difficulty level, 1.9.6, no saves/reloads
(60.31 KiB) Downloaded 226 times
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podbelski
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Re: Scenario 15: The Lost General

Post by podbelski » June 19th, 2011, 10:22 am

@Faello,

nice replay as always, you just missed the village at (31,17) right to the south of your starting point. And it's better to trigger cave-in at (16,25) first, so undead is forced to stand in the water while you are on the ground...

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Faello
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Re: Scenario 15: The Lost General

Post by Faello » June 19th, 2011, 12:59 pm

Thanks podbelski! 16,25 is an inferior opening imo, it's not about how powerful undead can hit you if you have some lvl1 shields at this point of the game (late game stage), since your loyal lvl3>their lvl2's - it's more about how fast you can deal with them, and for that 27,25 is better (easier access). 16.25 would force you to wait for them on the lake shore and perhaps even you'd have to defend your villages in the far [SW] cave :)
The yellow jester does not play
but gently pulls the strings
and smiles as the puppets dance
in the court of the Crimson King.

podbelski
Posts: 151
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Re: Scenario 15: The Lost General

Post by podbelski » June 19th, 2011, 1:14 pm

Faello wrote:it's more about how fast you can deal with them, and for that 27,25 is better (easier access). 16.25 would force you to wait for them on the lake shore and perhaps even you'd have to defend your villages in the far [SW] cave :)
yup, you are on spot here :)

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