Scenario 11: Ford of Abez

Feedback for the mainline campaign Heir to the Throne.

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SigurdFireDragon
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Re: Scenario 11: Ford of Abez

Post by SigurdFireDragon »

Played on 1.12.5 Hero (Normal) 361 Gold

I agree with the others that it might be good to make it more clear where exactly "getting across the river" is completed.

This scenario is a refreshing change. Seeing in the Status Table that Li'sar has 54 g income and the orc has 3, makes it clear going after Li'sar won't work. So my village grabbing strategy is not to grab any villages and get across the river almost as quickly as possible to maximize carryover gold.

I recalled 10 units (9 Merfolk & a Shyde) Had some units back up the merman going for the trident as I wasn't sure where or when the monsters hinted at in the Status Table would appear.
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Caladbolg
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Re: Scenario 11: Ford of Abez

Post by Caladbolg »

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
1.12.5, medium.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
3. When you have enough leveled mermen and just rush for the other side, it's not very difficult.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Mostly clear. When I got close enough, I moved Konrad immediately to the plains and not on the sand, so I didn't even notice that victory isn't triggered if you go on sand- I only found out about it after reading a few comments here. Looking at the scenario code, the victory is triggered by moving Konrad to hexes with coordinates x=1-44 and y=1-8, meaning that moving him to sand hexes won't trigger victory (because their y coordinate is >8), but also that some plain hexes won't work either: quite a few of them on the western end of the map (though noone would try to send Konrad there anyways, so that's not a big issue); also, hexes 27.9 and 35.9 are plains but don't trigger victory.
A simple way to fix this would be to mention what range of coordinates the "victroy hexes" are in. Or, if you don't want numbers in scenario objectives, filter the victory event not by coordinate range, but by hex type (if that can be done) and then say (in scenario objectives) that Konrad has to reach plain hexes on the opposite side of the river. Or, you know, make it so that stepping on sand also triggers victory.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
It's alright and I like Delfador's story about the battle. Li'sar still sound a bit bratty but it's not as bad as in the previous encounter. I'm not sure what to think about her trying to chase after Konrad... I mean, he is a traitor as far as she's concerned, so it makes sense that she'd want to punish him, but isn't it good for her that he's leaving Wesnoth? One less problem for her to deal with, especially considering the state Wesnoth is currently in. They attacked the Elves of Aethenwood, their mermen slaves from the bay of pearls were freed, the magi of Alduin oppose the Queen, Elensefar had been retaken and to top it all off, they have hordes of undead roaming about. They need every capable commander they can afford and Konrad leaving is one less threat (at least for now). I don't really get why Li'sar would pursue him still.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Keeping Mermen safe which isn't easy considering the range that those squids have.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7. A nice chance to play with mermen considering how many of them the player has on the recall list, the sea monsters make things more diverse (as does the "escape" type of scenario) and it's relatively easy.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
For the sake of clarity, fixing that ambigousness with the objectives, but I don't know what else there is to change considering that it's plenty of fun as is.

Notes & stuff:
-starting gold: 411
-no recruits
-recalls(7): Horseman & 6 mermen: Fighter(loyal), Netcaster(loy), Priestess(loy), 2x Warrior(both loy; 1 storm trident), Enchantress

-turn 1: recalling only a few mermen & a Horseman (non-water units can quickly get killed in water so I won't risk them and I don't want to lose too much gold); Konrad goes straight in the water
-turn 5: monsters appear; orcs enter the water and so does 1st of Li'sar's units; Konrad is halfway to the other side
-turn 6: warrior gets the trident; he can be attacked by 2 squids but they'd have to hit 19/20 times so he's safe
-turn 7: warrior retreats to the village; he can be attacked only from 1 hex but he can't be killed (10 hits from squid needed, but they have 8 hits available because of swarm); an ogre could also reach him but enchantress blocks him; Horseman levels to a Knight; mermen form a defensive wall against monsters so all of them can be attacked by 2 squids at most and are not at any serious risk; due to oversight, a warrior with a trident is also exposed to an orcish warrior so if he's really unlucky, he could be killed (but he'll likely survive); in the end, he survives
-turn 8: enchantress kills the orc warrior that was attacking my warrior, thus freeing the warrior from ZoC so he can retreat; she also levels due to it; most orcs defeated; wounded units protected with ZoC; my other trident warrior retreats from the village on the island even though he could kill the squid that attacked him- if he killed it, the ogres would get him, but this way the ogres will go for the wounded squid and in turn, the squids will go for the ogres; as expected, the ogres kill the squids and squids attack Li'sar's units
-turn 10: I had no problem leaving wounded mermen near the squids on turn 9 because Li'sar's units are in the water with horrible defense so they were the priority; now I use my mermen and a knight to pick off wounded loyalists; my warrior levels into a Triton; Konrad reaches the shore
-I could've stayed to farm XP, but I'll still have a chance to level mermen later on and I'd like to have as much gold as possible to properly recover from the valley of death

-no losses, no reloads
-advancements(3): Enchantress->Siren; Warrior->Triton (Trident); Horseman->Knight
-turns taken: 10/24
-end: 301 gold, 2 villages
-XP: Priestess, Knight, Warrior at ~1/3; Fighter close to lvl 2
-dmg dealt: -2%
-dmg taken: +3%
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Nyashka
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Re: Scenario 11: Ford of Abez

Post by Nyashka »

Okay, I finally managed to NOT cross the river. It reveals a weird bug, though.

If you don't cross the river, the sea creatures go to kill the Orc general, and after they do it they just stand in his fortress.

You can't actually "kill" the Princess, she just withdraws when you bring her to 0. But gameplay-wise it's the same thing. When the Orc general and Pricess are both defeated — you win the scenario even without crossing the river. It is possible to kill every creature in the game, though it's tough to get to those bugged sea creatures.

Strategy: recruit mermen and lure as many enemies as possible to the sea shore. Fight until you see a window and strike with a leveled knight.

To kill every enemy you need to send some forces to the other side of the river. Virtually impossible without having 10-12 level 3 characters (I'm on hardest difficulty). I'm an experience freak, though, so I have more level three's than I can recruit.

Was fun!
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Tad_Carlucci
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Re: Scenario 11: Ford of Abez

Post by Tad_Carlucci »

Already fixed.
I forked real life and now I'm getting merge conflicts.
LordWolfDan
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Re: Scenario 11: Ford of Abez

Post by LordWolfDan »

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?

- 1.14.5, Beginner

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

- 6

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

- Simple, cross the river

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

- It's interesting what happened exactly to Eldred when Delfador faced him off.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

- Trying to avoid being hit by these enemy units

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

- 6

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

- Either orc leader should recruit more lvl2 warriors or have AI smart enough so the orcs wait at the right bank until my units or river monsters are in their ZOC, would make this scenario more challenging
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mxb2001
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Re: Scenario 11: Ford of Abez

Post by mxb2001 »

[quote="Content Feedback" post_id=118521 time=1133971752 user_id=123454]
(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
easy 1.12.6
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
7
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Expected hitting the beach to be north side of river, had to move onto green stuff to win
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Still susprised that Lisar didn't join our side after the princess scen... I guess she's stubborn. The serpent and cuttle were a nice touch although the trident turned out to be same as the one from bay pearls, thought it'd be a new item...
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Took 3 tries, but third one was not hard as orcs are easy for mermen to kill in water and by moving north quickly enough the serpent and fish attacked the ogre that took the island village and others instead of me, only had to fight the few orcs. First try was a cheeky try to build nothing and run across the water to beat everyone without fighting at all, learned that ford was not a ford but shallow water... Konrad died. Second I built all the right units but mismanoevered and konrad got caught between monsters and lisars...
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
10
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
it's fine
[/quote]
01/01/01
Konrad2
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Re: Scenario 11: Ford of Abez

Post by Konrad2 »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

1.15.0, Champion (Challenging)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

3. I have an army of loyal merfolk.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Clear.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

None.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

6

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

No.
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Poison
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Re: Scenario 11: Ford of Abez

Post by Poison »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

1.14.7, Champion (Challenging), 312 starting gold, more than enough.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

2. All I did is recruit a keep of merfolk and go. You meet orcs in the water at day so...

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

It doesn't specify that sand doesn't count, can be somewhat confusing.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Clear.


(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

None.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

5.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Give the orcs nagas.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

No.
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Zrevnur
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Re: Scenario 11: Ford of Abez

Post by Zrevnur »

Content Feedback wrote: December 7th, 2005, 4:09 pm (1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
1.14.9 Challenging (in Ironman mode), played at least twice.
Content Feedback wrote: December 7th, 2005, 4:09 pm (2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
2
Content Feedback wrote: December 7th, 2005, 4:09 pm (3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Not clear enough. It would be better if there would be one (or more) marked spot which needs to be reached. Not some vague description. Precise timing is often important in this kind of thing. So I want to precisely know which spots I have to move to. Here I wasnt even sure if I needed to go up to the border of the map or just one step outside of the water. This is just how the gameplay works out in BfW. I dont think its right to try to hide this required precision with some vague objective descriptions.
Content Feedback wrote: December 7th, 2005, 4:09 pm (4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Clear. Not interesting.
The dialog is also misleading: "need to cross immediately" - not true - you can stay down for quite some time if you want. "We will slaughter them at the rivers edge" - not true - they stupidly entered the water and got slaughtered.
And Konrad the little kid gets frightened and wants to cross elsewhere? This here is as easy as it gets. And there is another trident too.
Content Feedback wrote: December 7th, 2005, 4:09 pm (5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
None.
Content Feedback wrote: December 7th, 2005, 4:09 pm (6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
3
Content Feedback wrote: December 7th, 2005, 4:09 pm (7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
See above.
There may be an issue with the Royal Guard summoning - it happens twice - dont know if this is intended.
The poisoned Royal Guards would have made easy XP for my mer - I decided not to do that though. I dont think this is quite right. Not sure if those monsters should even go south right away - this may be unintended.
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Lord-Knightmare
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Re: Scenario 11: Ford of Abez

Post by Lord-Knightmare »

Content Feedback wrote: December 7th, 2005, 4:09 pm (1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
1. Normal/Wesnoth 1.15.12+dev
2. 7/10
3. crystal clear
4. 7/10
5. Those sea monsters and their insufferable poison spreading tactic.
6. 7/10
7. This is probably the last scenario I will recall my Merfolk units and this is just sad.
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mal_shubertal
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Re: Scenario 11: Ford of Abez

Post by mal_shubertal »

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
1.16.2 Challenging
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
2. mermen just smacking orcs around in a river.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
moderately clear.The victory not being triggered when you get on sand was confusing. To me, I've 'crossed a river' once I'm on any kind of dry ground, sand or otherwise.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
I like it. Delfador gets to tell the backstory from his perspective, and it's clear he REALLY doesn't want to take responsibility for killing Eldred, which adds some interesting depth to his character.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
none, really. I had so many loyal mermen, it was just a question of how to win with the most possible xp.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
5. I'm always glad to see a mermen scenario and a time-pressure unwinnable scenario to mix things up, but it was perhaps TOO easy and straightforward.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Maybe having some of the sea creatures pop up unexpectedly, like having them hidden in the deep water tiles the way orcs were hidden in hills in Crossroads. That would make the player think harder about their merfolk positioning. The orc leader having the option of recruiting nagas could also be interesting.
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lujo86
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Re: Scenario 11: Ford of Abez

Post by lujo86 »

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?

Two runs, one one

1.16.8
Highest

And one on an older version, the latest that could be run on 32-bit windows.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

2

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Fine enough.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Overrecruiting. On the very first attempt I also tried recruiting a few non-swimming, non-flying units, but it took only one try to abandon that idea.

On the older game version, the Orc opponent summoned bats, and their long range caused me quite a headache with trying to get the trident because they made it impossible to just beeline towards it with one merman and get back safely without support and complications with the cuttlefish. On the new version the Orc didn't summon bats, so that part went without any hassle.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

5.

It's immediately obvious that it's not supposed to be a conventional map, so I did expect it to be a novelty distraction, and it was one. It turned out to be too easy, thought, especially on the newer version where the Orc didn't recruit any bats (maybe he still does but just didn't on that one run).

The reason I only rate it as middling is that I'm not sure that it achieved it's intentions, unless the intention was for it to be a bit of a cutscene with some opportunity to get mermen some XP. I did multiple attempts just trying to see how much I can get out of it, and what happens is that the cuttlefish only really force you to pick up the trident ASAP, which you want to do anyway. After that all they do is occupy the Loyalist troops before they can reach you. The only point where the Loyalist troops were meaningful, other than as cuttlefish bait, was on the very last turn before I ended the level by stepping off the sand, when I used the closest Loyalists for just one last round of free XP for the mermen. The orcs were harmless, whether they wasted some recruiting time on bats or not.

So it's a level that looks reasonably cool, and can give you plenty of worry... but turns out to be quite harmless. I do suppose it would be different for someone who neglected to pick up and level up mermen in the earlier maps, but there's ample reason and opportunity to do both, so IDK.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

IDK. Maybe it's a kind of map that can only either be harmless or too difficult, and I'd prefer it like this, rather than trying to make the gimmicks lethal and turning it into a saltmine.

I'd think about two things, tho:

1) Maybe bump the size of the keep by one hex. If a player gets here with plenty of mermen, unleveled or not, they're gonna make it through anyway, so you might just let them recruit as many as possible, wth.

2) There's maybe a small conceptual problem with both the cuttlefish and the loyalists overlapping in pushing you to cross the ford asap. The loyalists don't really come into play other than to distract the cuttlefish, the way things are, and then when part or the majority of the cuttlefish just crash into them, neither threatens you much. IDK if anyone was looking to seriously rework this map to make it a bit more tense and tricky, there's plenty that could be done about this.

- It could be expended to have your camp be in the middle of two, smaller, Loyalist camps, one on either side, so that only one ends up tanking the cuttlefish or something.
- It could be made with the idea of giving you a good reason (and realistic opportunity) to set up a mixed defense on the sandbars in the middle of the ford to hold the loyalists back while you fight through the orcs, who are currently really, really harmless.

Just ideas for if someone wants to make this thing one of the maps you remember form this campaign, idk.
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ElvishMystical0
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Re: Scenario 11: Ford of Abez

Post by ElvishMystical0 »

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Versions 1.12 to 1.16 Easy and Medium. This feedback relates specifically to 1.16 on Medium.
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
This is a fairly solid 3.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very clear.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
It was fine.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Thanks to those 'creatures of the deep' namely the funky pink Cuddle Fish this is a highly variable scenario. I call them Cuddle Fish because the animation and sounds suggest that they hump their victims to death in melee.

Oh and then there's Gaga-Breuk's quintet of aquatic sword jugglers to deal with. Apart from that the hardest thing is deciding which Merman gets the next Storm Trident.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
I'll give this a 6. It's a short simple scenario.

More recently - just for the fun of it, I added Meralyn an Outlaw to the Mermen as I was short of Mermen as not all survived the Bay of Pearls and didn't want to level up a Merman Fighter. Meralyn's role was to provide additional shielding to the main characters. I'm never ambitious with this scenario as Northern Winter is coming up.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I don't think you can do anything to make crossing water more fun. It's something that needs to be done.
Orek
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Re: Scenario 11: Ford of Abez

Post by Orek »

Content Feedback wrote: (1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
(1) Challenging (=Champion=Hardest) in 1.14.17 on permadeath
(2) 2 (21st most difficult = 3rd easiest)
... [Difficult] 2, 16, 14, 4, 9, 6, 5b, 10, 13, 12, 23, 8, 7, 3, 15, 17, 19c, 22, 1, 20b, 11, 24, 18 [Easy]
(3) "Move Konrad to the north side of the river" is not clear at all when it actually means "Move Konrad to a hex whose y coordinate is 1~8." Something like "Move Konrad to the north side of the river past sandy shores" is clearer. At the same time, any hex whose y coordinate is 9 should be changed to sand. If (27, 9) is changed to sand, and it causes a new problem that some Orcish units enter the river 1 turn later, then the Orc castle can be moved east by 1 hex to compensate for the slower terrain.
(4) Clear and interesting enough
(5) It was necessary to protect the only Mermaid Priestess very well because she could heal others but not herself.
(6) 2 (20th most fun = 4th most boring)
... [Fun] 2, 1, 6, 9, 5b, 4, 16, 15, 23, 3, 12, 14, 10, 24, 13, 8, 7, 19c, 20b, 11, 17, 22, 18 [Boring]
(7) As described above in (3), the objective needs to be clearer.

YouTube Link: Run 1 Run 2 Run 3
Walkthrough: HttT walkthrough (hardest, permadeath, v1.14.17) + General campaign guides (Replays for all scenarios can be downloaded from here.)
JL42
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Re: Scenario 11: Ford of Abez

Post by JL42 »

What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
v. 1.16.10
Lord / Challenging
How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
It depends on how many leveled mermen you have from the previous scenarios, and if you are trying to farm some XP or just get across. I would say about 4 difficulty on average.
How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Mostly clear. But it's not really specific about where exactly Konrad needs to reach to win the scenario (I learned that it's the grass, not the sand). This is significant because I think probably a lot of players will, like me, want to get Konrad into a position where he can win on one move and then let him sit there as you continue fighting. Sucks to wait until the last turn and then realize that reaching the sand doesn't count.
How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Very clear; moderately interesting. The dialogue regarding the princess and her character are all solid during this part.
What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
This is a really great map, with lots of different things going on and multiple factions, which makes the combat very interesting. It's great how you can attack the orcs during the day, then turn around and attack the lawful pursuers during the night, while the whole time the sea creatures are sowing chaos. The main challenge is that you have to be really thoughtful in your moves because you don't know if the enemies are going to attack each other or attack you. And, of course, be very thoughtful about the land units' slow movement and keep them protected. New players might get into trouble if they fail to realize that they should be using mostly mermen here.
How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8
What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
None.

---------------
About the Overall Campaign:

The maps and storyline here are well-made and polished, though not as completely epic as some of the other campaigns. I like that it is lengthy, giving you time to develop your army, and gradually introduces many different terrains and unit types. This seems like a great beginner campaign since it's fairly easy and the early scenarios are framed as a kind of mentoring environment for the young hero. (However, it's a bit strange that some of the basic dialogue tips, like "hey, loyal units don't require upkeep!" are just now arriving, after I've already played through several previous campaigns without that advice.) There are some glitches that can come up in the Scepter of Fire scenario, and some of the princess-related dialogue around scenarios 17–21 felt a bit confusing and unbelievable (more specific comments in the relevant threads). This campaign is very close to full marks, but due to those few lingering issues and the lack of any real epic blow-you-away maps I'm going to rate it 4 out of 5.
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