Scenario 10: Gryphon Mountain

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vodot
Posts: 97
Joined: October 12th, 2011, 5:32 pm
Location: Camas, WA

Re: Scenario 10: Gryphon Mountain

Post by vodot » October 17th, 2011, 9:11 pm

1. Difficulty: Challenging (hard); 1.8.6; my first campaign ever; 200g (minimum) (ow, ow, valley of death).
2. Challenge: 2. Cake, once I got the unit combo correct to reach the Gryphons. Finished with 2 recruit losses only. Despite difficulty-raising, logic-defying AI issues.
3. Clarity: 10. It's crystal clear what needs to be done... but poor in method/mechanics and explanation.
4. Dialog: 1. Frustratingly meh. Unconvincing.
5. Obstacles: 5. Getting to the Mother at the right time: not too early, not too late. But more pointedly: resisting the temptation to throw the mouse when the Gryphons, who have only been attacked (numerous times!) by the AI, decide to cross the map to wreak vengeance on... my forces...?
6. Enjoyment: 2. It wasn't difficult, but I really ended up despising this scenario for the above reasons; and coming right after Valley of Death it was a little much.
7. Changes: I think the Gryphon AI needs to be reworked, gentlemen. Did changes to this scenario not make the 1.9 dev releases?
8. Restarts: 3. Disbelief at the gryphon's behavior led to a restart, then a save; and then a chain of about 30 rapid reloads just to make sure it wasn't random. Nope- every time the gryphons are attacked by the Loyalists, they charge (9+ hexes away from the adjacent loyalists) towards my forces and attack. Frustrating.

If the idea on "challenging" is to increase the difficulty by having the Gryphons attack the player no matter what, then, please, explain that it is going to happen and why. I would prefer simply giving the AI more units, since they do indeed have a hard time competently negotiating the adverse terrain.

fixed the replay file; thanks for the tip Faello!
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Ninjuri
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Re: Scenario 10: Gryphon Mountain

Post by Ninjuri » May 1st, 2012, 2:23 am

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
easy 1.10.2
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
4
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Unclear; When i got the objectives, it just said kill the griffon mother for griffons, and the enemy to win. When the enemy sent ogres and started attacking the mother griffon i was completely confused. I had assumed that they were both going to be going after me, or at least ignoring each-other. As the ogres and the griffon fought it out, i was like "Oh i get it, you're supposed to hang back and let the enemy kill the griffon mother, this is to teach players the importance of letting enemies fight each other so you don't have to waste units, now i'll get the griffons without actually having to fight them!" Then the ogres killed the griffon and the enemies said they had now prevented me from training any griffons. Only, there was a full nest of eggs under where the mother griffon had been, so i assumed that the enemy thought they had prevented me from getting griffons, not realizing that the eggs were still alive, and i would just have to send a unit to retrieve them. Well i fought off the enemy and managed to get a unit up in the mountains on top of the eggs, only to have nothing happen, it was then i realized that i actually needed to be the one to kill the mother griffon myself, but since it died many turns prior, i was like "eh, screw it, i'm not going to load that far back, i probably won't even need griffons;" and i didn't need them... until the very last level, that is.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Pretty interesting i guess.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

See 3
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
5
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Make it clearer that if the enemies land the killing blow on the griffon you can't get any.
Fate is against me.

SBak
Posts: 78
Joined: October 8th, 2011, 1:36 am

Re: Scenario 10: Gryphon Mountain

Post by SBak » October 3rd, 2013, 4:16 am

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Easy and medium 1.8.5, 1.10.2 and 1.10.5

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
This varies between a 5 and 9-10, and is a very luck dependent scenario.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
My problems here are once again with the main characters. I have a major problem with Konrad believing that you can stick an Elf (supposedly taller than a human) or human for that matter on any sort of bird and ride it unless Gryphons are huge birds. I think even your average 5 year old would be sceptical of this possibility.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
This is a scenario which seems weighted heavily against the player where getting to kill the Mother Gryphon for the eggs is a matter of a lucky streak more than anything else. You're racing a level 2 Ogre which can get to the nest just as quickly as any of your units (with the exception of course of the Scout or Rider) and which doesn't have any impediment getting there.

On the other hand you have all the obstacles. You can get a Scout or Rider quicker to the nest but it's likely to get destroyed by either one of the Sleeping Gryphons or the Ogre. Your starting units of Konrad, Delfador and Kalenz all move five hexes a turn and struggle in mountains, as do quick Elvish Fighters, Heroes and Captains (moving one hex more). Elvish Archers, Rangers and Avengers move better in mountains, but are unlikely to take out both a Mother Gryphon and an Ogre singlehandedly.

What I normally try and do is get a Scout/Rider to impede the Ogre backed up by fast Rangers, keep Konrad on his keep and send more Scouts/Riders around the mountains to take the villages. For some inexplicable reason the enemy sends most of its units west to the north of the mountains. However whether this works or not depends on the enemy AI, as chances are it will further impede my progress by getting the Gryphons to attack my units.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
Not much - 2 and that's just for defeating the enemy leader or losing the scenario. I don't get anything out of a scenario which seems so heavily weighted against me.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Why make such a big issue out of the Gryphon's eggs and not give the player an even chance of getting them? I think there's a very strong argument for having the mountains and nest in the north east either beside or behind the enemy keep so that, unless you defeat the enemy leader you have no chance of getting the eggs.

There's also not much point in sending Ogres and Longbowmen to deal with my Elvish Rangers after the Mother Gryphon has been killed.

thejasper
Posts: 7
Joined: December 20th, 2013, 2:00 am

Re: Scenario 10: Gryphon Mountain

Post by thejasper » December 20th, 2013, 2:19 am

Content Feedback wrote:(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
1.10.4 medium

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
1

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
8

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Awful. I really like the game, even when its frustratingly hard or I don't get the right strategy. However this scenario really bugged me. First the story. Hey, we're the good guys, lets go kill the mother of the griffins and steal her eggs. If it was capture and tame, ok. This story just makes you a thug. Sure, you could argue that in the middle ages this wouldnt be shocking, but in the middle ages they also didn't have elves, ogres, undead...its a fantasy game and we are supposed to be the good guys here. Next is the damn griffins. They don't seem to care who is attacking them. Fine, they are 'dumb' beasts, but then they should not use strategy and simply attack whoever attacked them. Having them fly away from the guy who attacked them to attack someone all the way acrross the mountains is just crazy.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
So apparently the other side can send ogres in faster than almost any unit you have. Why? It's easy enough to get around, I sent some Elven riders up to steal the kill, but ended up distracting the enemy. This let me get my stronger troops up. The first two times you do this scenario however you are sitting there going, 'but how can I even get there that fast?'. Its annoying. After you figure that the scenario is a cakewalk though. Even with the enemies level 2 troops there is no real challenge.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
1

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
More griffins, more enemies, and make it a more even race. Otherwise remove the griffins from the battle altogether. Beat the enemy and the prize is griffins. I haven't used griffins in battle yet, so I can't say what that would be like, but why not make griffin riders a new faction? The you could use them right away in this scenario.

line
Posts: 94
Joined: January 11th, 2012, 9:21 pm

Re: Scenario 10: Gryphon Mountain

Post by line » May 21st, 2014, 12:00 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Champion (Challenging) 1.11.12, Shamans only (and loyals)
200 (default) starting gold, enemy: 350
Finished turn 15/21

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
Obviously I am not interested in getting gryphoons and didn't manage to do so in 1.11.6. This time the enemies left mother gryphoon deadly wounded, so I could deliver the killing blow. Pure luck.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Clear

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
None.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
It reminds me a bit of the one in EI, where you can get ogres. It adds some variety to the campaign, but still I don't really like the scenario (maybe due to the bad maneuverability).

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
None.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
None.
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Linthar
Posts: 77
Joined: September 14th, 2006, 12:16 am

Re: Scenario 10: Gryphon Mountain

Post by Linthar » July 9th, 2014, 3:17 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Medium Difficulty 1.10.7

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
3

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
The mechanics for getting the gryphon eggs were a little unclear, I didn't realize my first time playing the map that the only thing that mattered was which side got the last hit on the mother gryphon.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
The dialog was serviceable but not particularly interesting.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
There were no real challenges. I was a little short on gold but my army was more then strong enough to handle an enemy that was just using a mix of level 1 and 2 units.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
4. The enemy was too easy and the mechanics for getting the gryphon eggs were very annoying. You only get the eggs if one of your units deals the last hit to the mother gryphon. Since I found both my units and the enemies units reached the center at roughly the same time this meant that I could not attack the gryphon freely as I had to make sure it ended each turn with enough health to survive the enemy attacks, and when it was at low enough health that I thought it could be killed I had to hope I didn't have a string of unlucky misses. And it makes little sense that the enemy getting the killing blow makes the eggs impossible to get when my units were right there and should have been able to prevent anything from being done to the eggs.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I would change how the eggs are gotten to not rely solely on getting the last hit.

kiss
Posts: 124
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Re: Scenario 10: Gryphon Mountain

Post by kiss » October 15th, 2014, 12:39 pm

Heir to the Throne - Gryphon Mountain - Fighter (Beginner) 1.11.16.
Never played before.

Storyline
Should we hunt the Gryphon? Well, why not after all.

Events

The map
This is Corsica! (cut east mountain part from | line 18)
Forest, mountain and forest again. 2 groups are needed?

Strategy
Meet mother Gryphon, and deal with her?
Send a quick Footpad in the mountain. Recall Haldiel to capture villages.

Comments.
First time I encounter sleeping unit, it's funny.
Turn 4: they attack Gryphon?
What appends next drive me crazy! No save reload, no redo.
It cost me 1 loyal Rogue and 1 Thug!

Starting gold+(carried over): 300+(28)/200/200/160.
Finish turn: 16/27, bonus gold: 174.
Recruit 1: 1 Elvish Archer,Elvish Fighter,Elvish Scout,Elvish Shaman,Horseman,Mage,Mermaid Initiate,Merman Fighter,Merman Hunter,Thief.
Recall 13: Elvish Archer, 1 Elvish Captain,Elvish Druid, 1 Elvish Enchantress,Elvish Fighter,Elvish Hero, 1 Elvish Marksman, 1 Elvish Shaman,Elvish Sorceress, 1 Footpad, 1 Fugitive,Horseman, 2 Knight,Mage,Mermaid Initiate,Mermaid Priestess,Merman Fighter,Merman Hunter,Merman Warrior, 1 Outlaw, 1 Red Mage, 1 Rogue,Thief, 1 Thug, 1 White Mage.

XP tracking.
Delfador Elder Mage lvl 5: 138/200
Elvish Captain lvl 2: 7/72
Elvish Enchantress lvl 3: 84/144
Kalenz Elvish Lord lvl 2: 32/120
Nioden Elvish Marksman lvl 2: 50/80
Footpad lvl 1: 10/29
Delurin Fugitive lvl 3: 26/120
Haldiel Grand Knight lvl 3: 26/150
Knight lvl 2: 46/120
Konrad Lord lvl 3: 60/150
Outlaw lvl 2: 10/62
Elrian Red Mage lvl 2: 38/100
Moremirmu White Mage lvl 2: 68/136

R.I.P.: 1 Elvish Archer, 1 Elvish Shaman, 1 Rogue, 1 Thug
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SigurdFireDragon
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Re: Scenario 10: Gryphon Mountain

Post by SigurdFireDragon » March 8th, 2016, 10:11 pm

Played on 1.12.5 Hero (Normal) 285 gold

The objectives need fixed in this one, they are not clear enough. Getting the eggs should be mentioned as an alternative objective / special bonus, similar to the style in Blackwater Port on Hard Difficulty.

This replay was my second attempt, I didn't know I had to beat the enemy to the mother gryphon in my first attempt. I went for mobility, and only used 6mp or higher units.
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Caladbolg
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Re: Scenario 10: Gryphon Mountain

Post by Caladbolg » March 17th, 2016, 8:00 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
1.12.5., medium

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
3. But I'm not sure how to rate it properly because the AI is a bit strange and difficulty is very luck-dependant.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Not clear. Usually when there are several sides fighting, the victory condition "defeat enemy leaders" doesn't mean "YOU defend all enemy leaders" but "all enemy leaders must be defeated". In other words, you win if all enemy leaders are defeated, regardless of who it was that defeated them. Naturally, I expected the same to hold true here, so when I saw Ogres attacking the mother gryphon, I was very pleased. I wouldn't have to go into the mountains to deal with her, and the ogres would be weakened from the fight. Because of that, I didn't send any units towards the gryphons. Imagine my surprise when the ogres killed the mother gryphon and I found out that I just lost the possibility of having gryphons. I played a bit more hoping that I could get them because the eggs were still on the map but that didn't work. I restarted the scenario because of this.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
There are serious problems with how the AI works and with the information (or rather, the lack thereof) given to the player:
1) If the player needs to be the one to kill the mother gryphon, that should be explicitly noted in both dialog and scenario objectives.

2) It doesn't make any sense that you cannot get the eggs after the enemy kills the mother. After all, they didn't destroy the eggs (it isn't mentioned that they destroyed them, they have no reason to destroy them and have reasons to keep them safe, and the eggs remain on the map). If you don't want the player to get the eggs when the enemy kills mother gryphon, then the eggs should be removed from the map and a good explanation should be given for why you cannot get the eggs by defeating the enemy general and taking the eggs from them.

3) It is mentioned that disturbing the gryphons could be dangerous, implying that they will try to defend their nests and their eggs (and that makes sense considering that they're animals). As such, it makes no sense that, after they're disturbed and assaulted by enemy forces, they leave their nests unguarded and go out of their way to attack my units that are still far away and not a threat to them in any way. Aside from the general's forces initially attacking the gryphons, it seemed like they were both cooperating against me. If that sort of behavior is intended (and I hope it isn't as it doesn't make any sense), again, it should be noted in dialog. If it was not intended, it should be fixed. (This was more of a problem on my 1st attempt; on the 2nd one, I managed to counter that somewhat, but I wouldn't be able to do that if I didn't know about that wacky behavior from my previous attempt.)

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Dealing with completely irrational gryphons who would rather attack my nature-loving elves who were just strolling around the mountains than the savage ogres who tried to slaugter them.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
2. Mainly due to the lack of information and silly AI behavior. I think the map's really nice and the scenario would be quite relaxing after the bloodbath that was the valley of death because it's much easier. It has potential but I can't rate it higher until the things mentioned are fixed.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
-make gryphons at least partially sane
-mention that the player must give the killing blow on mother gryphon to get the eggs (explicitely, in the scenario objectives, as a bonus condition)
-also mention all relevant info in the dialog
-when the enemy kills the mother, remove eggs from the map if the player can no longer get them
-if you can't get eggs by killing the enemies that took them, provide explanation in the dialog
-somehow make gryphons more accessible to the player: as it is, both the player and the enemy are at roughly the same distance from the gryphons; however, most of the player's units are slowed down considerably by the mountains, while the ogres are not; as a result, the enemy will inevitably reach them sooner and it's hard to get the eggs without luck.
The only units that the player has and that are fast enough are scouts and horsemen, though the horsemen can't go over mountains. This leaves only scouts (and maybe recalled shydes or sylphs as they can fly) to go for the gryphon. Scouts will get killed easily and shydes and sylphs have large upkeep (if you even have them). My strategy was sending my fastest units to the east to distract enemy units and allow my other units to reach gryphons, and even then it was a close call.
Possible solutions would be to either increase the distance between gryphons and the enemy, or to make the mountains more accessible from the south (maybe a small valley reaching to the middle of the mountain or replacing some mountains with hills and some hills with plains).

Turn by turn & other stuff:
-starting gold: 249
-recruits(8): Fighter, Archer, Horseman, Mage, 2x Scout, 2x Shaman
-no recalls

-turn 4: I sent almost everyone to the east because that's where the enemy will try to climb the mountain; Horseman and Scouts are at the front; enemy attacks the 1st gryphon; luckily, he has a mage which is very squishy so the gryphon goes after him this time

-turn 5: Delfy and a scout enter the mountains; they'll try to position themselves between the mother and the enemy to prevent him from killing her; Horseman & Scout attack on the east to put pressure on the enemy and distract him from going into mountains; enemy prioritizes gryphons over traitors trying to destroy the current regime; one of the gryphons kills the enemy mage; another gryphon (the northernmost one, who awakened because he was attacked by an ogre) decides to ignore the ogre that attacked him, as well as the enemies that attacked the other gryphon (even though they're all closer than my troops) and fly all the way south to attack my archer even though I still haven't laid a finger on the gryphons

-turn 6: knowing that the awakened gryphon will go after me (having learned that by now from my 1st attempt), and realizing that I can't kill him without my horseman (who would then get killed by the enemy longbowman), I make a nice decision to lower the gryphons health. As the enemy plays before gryphons, he'll use his units to take down that gryphon instead of going for my unit or the mother, and he'll also dispose of that gryphon, saving my units. It worked like a charm ^_^ . An ogre from the north attacks the mother.

-turn 7: I attack the mother with Delfador. If he hits 4 times, he'll kill her; if he hits 3 times, she'll be left at 2 HP and I can still reach her with my Scout (though if I'm unlucky, she'd end up with low HP and the enemy ogre would claim the kill); Delfy kills her by himself; I leave a few units slightly exposed to attract the enemies (otherwise, they'd encircle Delfador who's all alone in the mountains); the bait works

-turn 13: My scout kills the last gryphon and advances; the only unit on the west is Konrad, sitting on a village, surrounded by 2 Duelists and a Mage; they've been reluctant to attack him so far

-turn 16: Mage kills enemy leader; all enemy units killed, all villages captured

-no losses, no reloads, 2 attempts
-advancements(1): Scout->Rider
-turns taken: 16/24
-end: 335 gold, 22/22 villages
-XP: Rider, Horseman & Shaman at ~1/2; Archer & Mage close
-dmg dealt: +2%
-dmg taken: +4%
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