Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Feedback for the mainline campaign Heir to the Throne.

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MRDNRA
Posts: 212
Joined: September 11th, 2009, 5:06 pm

Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by MRDNRA » November 28th, 2012, 1:06 am

IIRC the last time I played this (quite a while ago now) I found that having a couple of knights (or 3 including Haldiel, the loyal horseman when levelled) available for recall at the start made a big difference playing on normal difficulty, along with regular forces. The knights attacking in the day can really blast quite a hole in the orcs (especially seeing as since 1.10 they don't recruit exclusively level 2s any more) and it can make things quite a bit easier. Combining that with the slow ability of the shaman line (I think I recalled a druid and a couple of sorceresses to attack the city so I could deal with the undead and orcs at the same time) and then dealing with the orcs becomes quite simple.

DSidious
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by DSidious » February 23rd, 2013, 5:35 am

I have a system ive used a few times always been successful
recruit horsemen and recall lvl 2s within ur budget so that u still have at least 60-80g ( i like to have 100)
send groups to south bridge(konrad can support this one) and east bridge possibly one group wades to island if u have enough starting gold
wait to cross till troops are massed in favorable time of day( if ur lucking u will have repulsed a sortie by a warrior or crossbowman possibly a couple)
smash the orcs defenses never raise the flag before u have a secure hold in south or east
send 1 or 2 units with decent hp to clog northern bridge if things r moving slowly
take city keep recruit magi march north

on a side note yes a couple thieves die usually but id dont understand all the people complaining they r uselesss theyve helped me plenty usely have a rogue or two by end

letsdance
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by letsdance » August 2nd, 2013, 8:31 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
medium, 1.10.6

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8. i just finished the campaign. this one was much more difficult than most of the campaign (i would rate most them 2-4). just looking at this scenario, the difficulty is ok, but i would prefer less variation throughout the same campaign. there were 1 or 2 other scenarios, that were clearly too difficult, but i don't remember which ones they were.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
clear. i don't care much about the story

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
finding the best strategy

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7, but see below

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
there is one, which is the reason why i came here after finishing the campaign to post feedback. this scenario is called The Siege of Elensefar, and that would be a really cool objective. but in fact the best strategy was to hide in the woods until the enemy attacked me. attacking (or sieging) the city proved to be a bad strategy. this scenario would be really outstanding, if the AI would not move out of the city, altough in this case it would probably need a power reduction. i assume this AI behavior cannot be done by just editing the scenario, but also needs new code to be written. but it would be worth it, also for other scenarios in other campaigns.

Kirsten
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by Kirsten » August 25th, 2013, 9:57 pm

letsdance, I'm intrigued by your idea of waiting in the woods for the orcs. At all three levels, I've taken the bait offered by the name of the scenario, and run for the city, with varying tactics such as making the orcs enter the water, or trying to beat them into the two ruined castle hexes on the other side, and distracting them with horsemen up at the east of the city, or not. I get clobbered a lot. So I tried, on hard, waiting in the forest, but it hasn't gone well. I lost two level 2s pretty quickly; orc forces just seem too strong, and hiding in the forest means I can't set up a line of defense, so some of my units can be attacked by three or four orcs at once.

Did you do a combination of hiding in the forest and having a few units between copses to make for a line of defense?

And what did you do with the volunteer thieves? Mine got swallowed pretty quickly by the orc leader and by skeletons, when I had them flank the city just after midnight. I figured if I had them wait until I entered the city, by the time I got them I wouldn't need them.

Here's a question for everyone: How much gold do you have at the start of the scenario? This time around I have 198 gold, and it just doesn't seem to be enough to hold off all those orcs. I'm playing the hard level; maybe that's my first mistake. Maybe it would be enough, if I had leveled enough units that my recalls were more powerful. I've always had trouble in this scenario, though, even on easy and medium; it's tough to keep my head above water with the limited gold I have for recalls.

I'm playing 1.10, by the way.

Thanks!

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Elfarion
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by Elfarion » August 26th, 2013, 8:13 am

Kirsten:
I tried it on hard too. I set up in the forest next to the shore. When the Orcs came out, I retreated to the woods on the southern edge of the map, so that the first attack took place at dawn. I slaughtered the Orcs on the mainland in broad daylight, while the mermaid priestess, the merman with the trident and another level 2 merman held off the Undead. Then I entered the city, killed the Orc leader and mopped up the Undead.
"Each of mankind's steps towards tomorrow is a breaking of today's laws."
- Sergej Lukianenko

Majikthize
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by Majikthize » August 27th, 2013, 3:22 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
easy, medium
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
11
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
clear
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
very clear, moderately interesting
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
constantly being overwhelmed by sheer numbers
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
0
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Make it not Fing impossible.

Linthar
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by Linthar » August 28th, 2013, 8:28 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.10.5 Medium

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8. Probably the most difficult mission in the campaign for me.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Kill the leaders, perfectly clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Storywise the scenario is pretty nice. It feels like a major victory, sets up the plot of the rest of the campaign, and the thieves guild appearing adds some nice flavor to the situation. The dialog is serviceable. It conveys all the necessary information, but there were no specific lines that really stood out. In retrospect the alliance between the orcs and undead seems weird, it feels like an alliance between two big threats like that should matter more in the big picture then something that happens once and is never mentioned again.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The major challenges I had were threefold first defeating the orcs before the city got swamped by undead, secondly accepting the fact I was going to have to let good units die, and thirdly making my way through the bottleneck of an entrance in the cave. I ended up playing the scenario through to victory twice. The first time I tried to do my unusual strategy up to this point of setting up a nice defensive position and letting the orcs kill themselves attacking me. This did not work well at all. The orcs were very reluctant to take the bait, and by the time I set foot on the central island it was swarming with skeletons, and my nice army of level 2 elves and knights turned out to be very bad at actually killing skeletons. Worse I was playing this scenario before I realized how powerful the shaman's slow ability was, so the level 2 orc warriors were incredibly dangerous. I did win that mess, but only by virtue of a decent amount of save load abuse and I barely finished in time due to the narrow entrance to the cave meaning I was fighting a defensive wall of skeletons several units thick. I wasn't happy with how that scenario went, so I went back and played it through a second time, where instead of trying to lure the orcs to my units, I recruited the majority of my level 2 units including two knights, and stormed the island on turn 3. The battle was ugly, I lost several level 2 units, and I would have lost more if not for some well timed levelups, but I got the orc leader down fast, before the skeletons could get a foothold. From there I was able to bottleneck the skeletons at the north end of the island recruit a bunch of mages, and push north without too much difficulty, and even the cave entrance gave me no problems since my assault on the orcs was so fast that I had plenty of time to advance far enough to trigger the reinforcements I knew about from my first playthrough, fall back outside and kill them, and then sweep back in to kill the now defenseless leader.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8. The first play through where I had to rely on save load abuse to win was not much fun, but the second playthrough where I used proper tactics to overcome a challenging map felt incredibly rewarding.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Personally once I got in the right strategic mindset I found the map to be incredibly fun, but I can understand all the complaints I saw from people who found the mission too hard. Just delaying the skeletons from reaching the central island by a few turns should do a good bit to make the scenario easier by giving the player more of a chance to take the foes on one by one, as well as possibly adding a hint that mages are a good counter against skeletons.

SBak
Posts: 78
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by SBak » September 30th, 2013, 6:04 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Easy and medium 1.8.5, 1.10.2 and 1.10.5

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

As a newbie 9 or 10, now it's about a 6.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Pretty clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Kind of acceptable.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
As a newer player actually getting through the scenario, or.. more accurately, getting as far as Turn 8. Even now even though winning the scenario is easier getting through the scenario without losing units, some of them key units is still often beyond me.

The problem is that the Orcs come into this scenario very much on the offensive, very much with level 2's (even on easy) and very much with poison. Having also played Unlawful Orders in Liberty which is on a different version of the same map I know that within 1-2 moves they can be south of the river (which they will be if Konrad is still level1 because this I've found is a sort of reversed leader assassination attempt).

The only way I've found to get through this scenario (or the first half) is to spend a little gold as possible and also be as vague as possible in your opening moves. I've figured that the Orcs want you to come over the southern bridge where they will pin you down.. and if you fall for it you will end up having both sets of enemies together in the town.

I've had success sending my Scouts/Riders north west, my Knights north east and spreading out my other units which tends to separate the Orcish Warriors and cause the Orcs to risk overstretching themselves. The general idea is to create three separate fronts and only attack from the two which give you the best access to the city.

The other challenge is making sure not to flag a village too early for the Thieves (if you chose that option - I found the other option useless) because they can be chopped to pieces easily but.. their backstab ability comes in really handy for getting rid of the Orcs.


(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

This is a luck dependent scenario which can either be a lot of fun or a right royal pain in the backside. I've once lured the Orcish leader off his keep to replace him with Konrad who recalled around the last remaining Orcish Warrior but I've also taken the keep with very few units left and no gold and had to wait for Scouts to capture as many villages as they can.

This is also an educational scenario. Elves really aren't that useless against the Undead, as the Undead don't care much for faerie fire.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

The problem with this scenario isn't so much the scenario itself but with the campaign which, like most of the other mainline campaigns, seems to suddenly alter or change the level of difficulty of the campaign or put the player into a situation for which they are ill-equipped or unprepared

This was the second campaign I started after The South Guard. However the first campaign I ever completed was an intermediate campaign which was well written, graded and yet still challenging - it was Liberty. I killed my first Lich in The Grey Woods, as well as my first Revenant, and my first Wraith which I killed with a bunch of Footpads.

To be able to get through this scenario I believe you need Konrad at least on level2 and to be able to recall one keep of level2 units with at least one healer. On Easy you can get this if you've had a brilliant opening in The Elves Beseiged, managed to level up one unit in Blackwater Port, and had two very good scenarios on the Isle of Alduin and at the Bay of Pearls.

But even then, assuming you don't lose any of your units in this scenario, you only have two more scenarios to level up either Mages or Sorceresses before you get to meet three camps of Undead coming at you from three directions and two of which recruit level2.

I think the issue here is one common to the other [novice] campaigns in that new players reach a point in the campaign where they get stuck or unable to proceed and I assume that they've done their best to follow tactical guides and so on.

I think the solution is to contradict Nietzsche - i.e. 'more is less'. Muff Malal throws out a few Dark Adepts, but what if he threw out the odd Skeleton, Skeleton Archer or Ghost?

I think also the enemy Orcs in both Isle of Alduin and Bay of Pearls need much more gold and after the first waves be recruiting a full keep every second or third turn so that the play is kept on their toes and killing the enemy leader should take superior strategic skills.. and preferably, require a bunch of level2 units.

Here the Orcish leader could be programmed to play defensively, and the Undead leader offensively in support of the Orcish leader. The player here needs to be required to lay siege to territory occupied by Orcs. Given the ranged superiority of the Elves backed up by Mages and loyal Mermen, this wouldn't be that unreasonable, even on a lower level of skill. Try getting out of the first Loyalist keep in Back Home in TSoTBE with a Druid, Hero and a couple of Rangers and Marksman occupying the northern hexes.

But just as with the other campaigns particularly The South Guard, new players need to be equipped and prepared to go through the campaign.

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taptap
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by taptap » November 6th, 2013, 3:04 am

I played this again. For the new portraits mainly. Champion (challenging), 309 gold, no recalls (apart from auto-recalled mid-level knight, who was quite useful upon becoming Paladin), 1.11.6.

Recruited a balanced army (2 mages, 2 shamans, 2 archers, 2 scouts, 2 horsemen and lots of fighters + 1 mermen fighter - probably a much larger army than you get with recalls) almost using up my initial gold, Konrad is L3, I told the thieves to show me the ford and finally won after patient play (most of it in the forests and plain on the left side of the keep, temporarily ceding the right). Lost many units incl. all thieves and finished with Paladin, 2 red mages (1 missing 2 xp to silver mage), druid, 2 elvish heroes, 1 ranger, 1 marksman, but this being without recalls it doesn't really matter. Important part was played by a scout that I could sneak into the green area to steal villages. All in all very liberating to revisit this without obsessing about loyals. However, not in the first attempt (I had one failure a month ago and one today) and on turn 28 with bait and kill vs. the leader (Konrad, Paladin and red mage led by Konrad)

I start to feel strongly about the cave and the tomato surprise reinforcements of the undead leader, there are scenarios in HttT that do reinforcements much better (princess). Caves + elves are generally bad, this is the first cave in Heir to the Throne and new players may not know about limited elvish movement in caves. Also, when you stumble into the cave unprepared and not ready to bait and kill the enemy leader at once, you basically need several more turns than you would otherwise. This is simply not fair, it is like players, who know all this get more than 3-4 turns extra. UMC gets negative feedback (from me at least) for tomato surprises, but the core campaign of the game sets the example.

I also feel it is wrong, that the decision between peninsula and isle is completely hidden (or at least the consequences!) to the unspoiled player. I consciously decided for Muff Malal this time, but to set up beginners so they lack very useful reinforcements later on is just mean design.

Upon trying to open the replay I realized that all my replays are broken. In fact Wesnoth closes with an error message (1.11.6 glitch?)

P.S. To the post above me: Playing for no losses is almost always bad play.
I am a Saurian Skirmisher: I'm a real pest, especially at night.

Doomchicken
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by Doomchicken » November 8th, 2013, 4:33 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.11, the medium difficulty.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
11

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Crystal clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
It was clear, but not particularly interesting.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Surviving the Orc onslaught, taking the castle, surviving the Undead onslaught.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
2. It's just too difficult to be any fun, especially if you're a new player who hasn't optimised his recalls.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Make it easier, and extend the time limit.

Laveley
Posts: 5
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by Laveley » November 24th, 2013, 8:30 pm

Yes, this scenario is difficult.But i managed to make it withou any load/save :D !

The key is to recruit as many elf soldiers as you can, they are cheap, have decent HP and have a great defense in the forests. Plus, they can attack orcs without retaliation with bow! Make a defense line with them to defend the orcs/undead at night and let you best unit in the rear . By the the daylight attack them for a total massacre.

Gonna attach my replay, note that i made the above strategy 2 times, first by the tree line and killed the orcs and than by the gates of the city to take on the undeads, than it was pretty much done. Also, i got 2 white mages because i think they are imba and the best class of the game (great support because of heal + ligh on lvl 3 with good dmg), specially against undeads.

Thats it, i think its pretty much impossible NOT to win this scenario with this strategy!
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ChargeofAddryn
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by ChargeofAddryn » November 30th, 2013, 12:50 am

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

Medium, 1.11.7 this time.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

7. Its one of my favourite scenarios in the game due to the possible strats and play to get around the challenges of the Undead cave and the Orc held city. I used a bit of a waiting tactic, holding the orcs at the main bridge, my four knights read up at the second bridge. At dawn (so lawful and chaotic would not get bonuses for either) I took a village with one knight, goth the thieves in an uproar, butchered the orcs form both directions. Charges, backstabs, slows from my shamans and all :D

Still I lost a ranger and an elvish hero, as well as a few thieves.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Very clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Again it was very clear. I like the dialogue from the thieves saying "You shall find there is honor, even among thieves". It really indicates how hated the mercenaries of the queen are. I also like the ending dialogue regarding the roads to Wesmere being guarded, it gives good reason for why they must go around and head eventually to the Ford of Abez. We also get the next main story arc being introduced.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

The undeads reinforcements always are annoying for me. I normally lose a unit or to them and I am always annoyed to see them appear. So killing the undead leader was a little challenging.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

8. One of my favorites.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Not any really. Maybe a bit more dialogue about Wesnoth lore regarding Elensefar, but otherwise it is a very good scenario.

helmick2003
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by helmick2003 » December 5th, 2013, 9:12 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
medium

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8, I had to abandon decently progressed saves 4-5 times before winning. Even then, I had to rerun turns a couple time to correct mistakes I made (e.g. getting loyal unit destroyed that I didn't realize was vulnerable).

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
I thought the story was cool. I especially liked the thieves choice presented, as both choices give very different options for infiltrating the island.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
I had a lot of trouble finding a sound tactic for getting a foothold onto the island. Most units recruited in turn 1 can reach the island around dusk, which is an aweful time to fight the orcs. If you wait until the second day cycle, they orcs will be all over the island and the undead will be well on their way for reinforcements.

I quickly realized that I can't outlast the orcs since they have more gold flow and I can't take them both on at once, so I stumbled on a strategy similar to the one linthar described. I had approximately two turns of recruitments worth of gold (~200 perhaps). I spent most of the first turn on horses and a healer and one or two other quick high level units. I recalled at least three higher level horses and a ranger or two. I took two villages on this recruitment turn.

Turn 2, I immediately sent my horses to the island (you can reach the bridge on turn two) with my rangers and healer close behind. The enemy only reached the end of the bridge with one unit. I recruited more high level units for a trickle of reinforcements and a low level horse to "collect" my villages slowly along with my king unit. I ran myself out of money, but that's OK, if I can take the island, I will have more than enough villages to make up for my negative gold that will accumulate.

Next turn (turn 3), It is now afternoon, so I use my horses to destroy units blocking my way onto the island and grab the two entrance forts and any villages in the vicinity and attack units with my daylight inspired horses. Healer sits at entrance to bridge to make sure I don't lose the forts. We have gotten a foothold in only 3 turns and the undead still far away! When given the option, I opted for the thieves to show up in the island when I take a village (I've already taken some, so they show up on the next village taken).

The rest of the game is easy. Even though night is approaching, take another village to get the thieves to join and quickly focus on surrounding and killing the enemy orc leader. Horses work wonders, even if you have to sacrifice. Then play defensively on the island to take out the remaining orcs (I recommend holding out till daylight). Your final wave of foot reinforcements should help replenish losses. I shifted my forces northward while finishing off the orcs to keep back the undead which should arrive around the time of the orc's demise. Then it's GG for the undead. Collect the villages, recruit more from the central island, and slaughter the undead leisurely. You will have massive gold and time advantage since the orcs will be dead in 6 or 7 or maybe 8 turns.

This strategy requires a little luck in the beginning (not losing your horse foothold) but is pretty dependable. I tried attacking from all sides, turtling in the forest, etc. but none of those tactics worked as well as a horse rush from the beginning.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
9.5, it was challenging, but not impossible (even though I thought it was impossible at first). The idea of a siege was neat, since the orc island was very defensible. The undead were highly annoying since they are strong against pierce and blade weapons (which is pretty much all you have to fight them with), but weren't a problem if you used the right tactics. The sense of gratification after winning was very strong.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Maybe make the thieves a little more powerful or numerous if you use them for infiltration. The three on the island don't compare to the 4 (or more?) that spawn behind the enemy leader in prime location to attack (and backstab). Maybe make it a little easier, since without the right tactics, it can be frustrating. Overall, very fun mission.

line
Posts: 94
Joined: January 11th, 2012, 9:21 pm

Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by line » April 29th, 2014, 12:50 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Champion (Challenging) 1.11.6, Shamans only (and loyals)
239 starting gold, enemies: 240/220
Finished turn ?/29

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
I didn’t fodder and recalled a lot of lvl-2 units. A loyal outlaw, another loyal knight, two loyal white mages, a merman warrior with the trident and a mermaid priestess. I recruited one or two shamans. The rest was druids and sorceresses. It’s all about slowing the enemy and not exposing a unit to 3 (not slowed) attackers. Also the mermen won’t survive 3 attackers.
There are many ways to beat that. Foddering, falling back at night, slowing…
It’s fun to find out, how you combine them best.
Calling the thieves by capturing a village in the city gains you one more loyal thieve.
The cave should be attacked by both sides. That helps luring the lvl-2 units out of it, once you stepped into it.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Clear

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Dealing with the orcs, without losses and the cave.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
I like it. Shamans and their upgrades serve well against both orcs and undead. That ends, once you reach the cave.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
None.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
I restarted several times to improve dealing with the orcs, and once for a better approach to the cave.

Sadly this replay is also broken.
Last edited by line on May 19th, 2014, 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

line
Posts: 94
Joined: January 11th, 2012, 9:21 pm

Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by line » May 19th, 2014, 5:07 pm

Champion (Challenging) 1.11.12, Shamans only (and loyals)
275 starting gold, enemies: 240/220
Finished turn 22/29
Attachments
HttT-The_Siege_of_Elensefar_replay.gz
shamans only
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