Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

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Jozrael
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Location: NJ, USA.

Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by Jozrael » March 8th, 2012, 10:02 am

Albert_Blatherbury wrote:This map is not doable.
Playing on medium, the maps before this one were a complete walkover, but this one is impossible, even following all the recommended strategies and restoring whenever something goes wrong. This creates a boring and frustrating experience.
Since things just don't work out on a numerical level to an extent that no amount of skill could compensate, I suppose I'd now have to restart the campaign. But on easy the first maps will pose so little challenge that it'd just be a boring tedious chore, and on medium I'd probably find myself in the same situation I'm in now, not to mention that redoing those easy maps will be boring. In other words, I'm stuck.
A game should never let the player end up in this situation. Now, I don't know why I ended up in this situation; maybe I don't have enough levelled units, or maybe they're of the wrong kind, or maybe I don't have enough gold, or whatever. But when you design a map you have a certain minimal starting position in mind and the game should tell you if you don't meet it, or change opponent armies to compensate or something. But you can't drop the player into a situation where something, who-knows-what went wrong who-knows-how-many maps ago.
I have played other TBS and RTS games before, but this is the first time I had a game change so suddenly from too easy to impossible. This is definitely not a good experience. A game is supposed to be fun, and playing the same map over and over again for hours and hours only to have to come to the conclusion that you're stuck is not fun.
I'm sorry you are having trouble. If you would submit a start of scenario save, I guarantee we could give you more helpful feedback than 'yes it is possible with the starting gold and no recall list'.

sedmi_patuljak
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by sedmi_patuljak » March 9th, 2012, 7:56 am

I have somewhat different approach to this problem. It happened to me as well to play a campaign and than hit the wall... mission that I just can win. Usual solution would be to start campaign from scratch and play more efficiently so that in another go I will have much better units and greater amount of gold for that troublesome mission.

There is alternative to it. I tend to see that my skill level is not adequate for this so I just put this campaign of ice, and find new campaign that is easier, and slowly build my skills level. For example...if I am playing rebel campaign and I come to mission that I can possibly win, and in that campaign I am fighting mostly undead and orcs...than i would put rebel campaign to hold and find some easier campaign, if possible with orcs or undead. That way I will improve my playing knowledge and know better about orcs/undead - is there better way to know your enemy if not to play them for a while?

Finally I start rebel campaign from scratch and fight orcs/undead with more skill and knowledge of my enemy.

Jabie
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by Jabie » March 13th, 2012, 9:44 pm

7.

I asked a question on the forums recently as to which was the starting campaign. Although the South Guard was mentioned, a number of responses suggested that Heir to the Throne is the best starting campaign. I certainly concur that HttT is the most polished of all the campaigns and a very good place to dive in. However as a result of that it may be necessary to introduce a few hints and tips in some of the starting scenarios, especially if the player is playing on Easy.

This is a good time to introduce the player to the idea of rolling their troops - that is - moving their wounded front line troops back and replacing them with fresher units. A key component of rolling troops is the knowledge that moving a unit does not forgo its movement. If a unit hasn't spent all it's movement allowance you can come back to it later. This isn't stated anywhere, and it's not immedaitely intuitive. Unit A can move, unit B can move up in it's place and attack, then, depending on the outcome of the combat you might decide to sacrifice unit A in order to deal those final points of damage, or you might decide to move Unit A back to a villager / adajcent to a healer. Admittedly, this technique is most useful in dungeons rather than on open plains, but it should be highlighted as it's a relatively simple nuance to miss.
Last edited by Jabie on April 20th, 2012, 8:51 am, edited 2 times in total.

Kaiserdrache
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by Kaiserdrache » March 26th, 2012, 6:31 am

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

Medium / 1.8

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

6 - challenging, but not too difficult

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Very clear - destroy both leaders

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Purely boring

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Watching the remaining turns to calculate an effective point of attack against Elensefar

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

5

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

none

monsieurrigsby
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by monsieurrigsby » March 30th, 2012, 7:57 am

Jabie wrote:A key component of rolling troops is the knowledge that moving a unit does not forgo it's movement. If a unit hasn't spent all it's movement allowance you can come back to it later. This isn't stated anywhere, and it's not immedaitely intuitive.
This is an important tactic, but it's not as simple as this; troops entering into another's zone of control are forced to stop, so there are key limitations to when you can move troops in multiple 'segments'. The key thing is the overall mindset of deciding on the order in which you move units (possibly attacking) so as to keep as many options open as possible (e.g. with lucky rolls, force an opened gap or, with bad rolls, shore up).

This would be better added to the tips you get on the startup screen; IMO, it's not particularly a good idea to add them within individual campaigns. The only exception might be for HttT to reiterate the need to try to level troops and protect loyal ones, rather than just finish scenarios. (This thread attests to the strength of emotion often felt when reaching The Siege of Elensefar without having 'got' this :) and numerous others have suggested this.)

Jabie
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by Jabie » March 30th, 2012, 9:25 pm

monsieurrigsby wrote:
Jabie wrote:A key component of rolling troops is the knowledge that moving a unit does not forgo it's movement. If a unit hasn't spent all it's movement allowance you can come back to it later. This isn't stated anywhere, and it's not immedaitely intuitive.
This is an important tactic, but it's not as simple as this; troops entering into another's zone of control are forced to stop, so there are key limitations to when you can move troops in multiple 'segments'. The key thing is the overall mindset of deciding on the order in which you move units (possibly attacking) so as to keep as many options open as possible (e.g. with lucky rolls, force an opened gap or, with bad rolls, shore up).

This would be better added to the tips you get on the startup screen; IMO, it's not particularly a good idea to add them within individual campaigns. The only exception might be for HttT to reiterate the need to try to level troops and protect loyal ones, rather than just finish scenarios. (This thread attests to the strength of emotion often felt when reaching The Siege of Elensefar without having 'got' this :) and numerous others have suggested this.)
I certainly wouldn't disagree with you about having "rolling troops" as a hint on the front page. However many new players won't read all the front page hints, so it's important to identify the most popular starting campaign and drop a few hints there. (I asked a question on the forums about the best starting campaign here: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=36291) Note that I recommend that these hints should only be configured to show up in Easy only. It is presumed that veteran players will play at higher levels and won't need them.

I would suggest the tip about recalling units occurs in Scenario 3. (http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... 9&start=60) Given Scenario 1 equates to "Run like Hell!" it's unlikely that anew player many units of any measurable worth to recall in scenario 2, so the hint is impractical for that scenario. However players need to get used to levelling and recalling their armies, so Scenario 3 felt like the logical place for this hint. This way, hopefully, by the time they reach Elensfar they'll got a creditable attack force.

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taptap
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by taptap » April 1st, 2012, 10:53 am

There are many things to learn, but I guess in this scenario the biggest mistake of beginners is to play for "territory" - that is they defend a line even when it is more appropriate to retreat. Especially in this scenario it seems to me players who rely on recalls too much (combined with defending a line) get into bigger trouble than players who tend to recruit more (at a cheaper price) - you need enough troops to begin with to roll them out of harms way. At least that happened to me when I first played it and lost many times over.
I am a Saurian Skirmisher: I'm a real pest, especially at night.

Kaiserdrache
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by Kaiserdrache » April 19th, 2012, 1:03 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

-> Medium, 1.8

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

5, perfectly balanced for my troops

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Totally clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Very clear, but boring.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Mainly to keep my focus on the defence and not trying to rush the city.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

8, really a good scenario.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

A small river in the south-west would have been appreciated, just to bring the mereman faster into action.

************

I really like the siege of Elensefar. It is one of those scenarioes where a good tactic can avoid heavy losses and give you ample experience for your troops.If you can manage to cut off the supply of skeletons from the north with your merman, the whole scenario gets so much easier. A lvl 2 merman healer, a lvl 2 merman fighter with the storm trident and a lvl 1 merman hunter can do this job easily, although skeleton archers at night still pose a problem. Furthermore, two lvl 2 elvish scouts came in very handy to outflank the orcs and to capture the two villages on the western island a couple of times. That further diverted the enemy troops and gave some much needed gold. The main force stayed really long south of the river and held out while two healers (a white mage and a elvish healer) gave support from the back. You really don't need that much troops to defend the river, two elvish archers and three melee fighters (one elf, one thug from the previous scenario and the loyal outlaw) were enough to keep the orcs at bay. I had another red mage and two knights covering my eastern front along the river, but these troops were mainly unemployed. It's only a pity that the thieves of Elensefar are such lousy fighters. By the time I triggered them to join me, they were practically useless. Well, at least they are loyal ;) I recalled some fresh troops from the orcish castle in Elensefar, but that proved to be unnecessary as the mage in the northern caverns isn't as hard as it looked. In a nutshell - a very funny scenario that made a lot of fun!

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Ninjuri
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by Ninjuri » May 4th, 2012, 2:28 am

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
easy 1.10.2
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
6
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
It was nice getting the the thieves were a nice twist, coming in and doing work in the city.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The main problem was assaulting the undead cave, there were only two holes that were easily blocked with skeles and i could barely get a few attacks off in a turn.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Open the cave up a little more
Fate is against me.

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moreus
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by moreus » July 5th, 2012, 4:59 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Hard 1.10.2(Linux)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
To hard for newbie campaign 10( with save/load 5)

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Kill enemy leaders in short time

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
nothing special

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
1.low Time 2.Orks have better tanks, and too many units

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
1 for newbie who cant pass this map, others 6

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
add more time for front castle raid , more tress for elves, cities near river, more water, neutral cities on enemy side

I Did this map with crap units
in 4 turn i killed Ork leader with rogues backstabs, I used elf scout to take City too summon units and little help of save/loads
I don't recruit army for earn more gold before battle with orks (olny loyals)
I used fast units to attack from West Cave entrance second boss he is (olny 48 HP)1

TeeWee
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by TeeWee » August 1st, 2012, 10:15 am

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Latest iPad version, Medium

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
7

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Crystal

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Is the necromancer related to the one on the Peninsula? The Thieves were an interesting bit; the heavy handed exposition at the scenario end is a bit much though.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The need to create diversions, the notion of sacrificial troops and appreciating the difference between cannon fodder (if they survive, it's a bonus), expendable units (if they die, it's ok, but I'd rather have them survive) and core units (it really hurts your army if they die).

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
9: a great challenge in difficulty where I needed to change my usual approach

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Apart from my other comments below, nothing in this[/b[ scenario.

Other comments
I had to restart this scenario twice I think, plus some reloads on the final assault on the cave. It wasn't particularly difficult in the end; I thought I had turns to spare and milked some XP, but got surprised by the necromancer and just managed to finish him off the last turn. If I hadn't dawdled for XP, I would've finished sooner.

My first attempt, I relied more on my usual strategy: recruit two scouts to grab some villages, recall a healer and some heroes and fresh recruits. Second turn, recall more spellcasters and level 2 melee (I can't manage to level up archers, the always die before upgrading). Then, form up a line just short of two turns of movement away from the keep with everyone (including Konrad), let the fresh recruits absorb damage in the late night phase (first contact!), the push home your advantage come dawn. I didn't appreciate the strength of the Orcs and they mauled my forces too much for me to push home my advantage. With all my gold gone and the skeletons marching into the town, the field was lost.

Second time, I recalled some merfolk and relied even more on my recall list. I found out that the merfolk were too slow for my liking (the starting keep is too far removed from the water) and didn't help enough. I did manage to infiltrate the town this time rather easily with a horseman. After activating the thieves, the horseman died and the thieves suicided while backstabbing the orcish king. Again, I couldn't maintain a bridgehead in time and again, with a battered army and no gold, I had to restart. I did notice however, that flanking diversions works: sometimes, they draw off some troops, sometimes they are ignored too much and the diversion turns into a very nasty thorn in the side (ZoC'ing important areas or sneaking in an extra attacking unit).

Last time, I used much more cannon fodder units and I was much more aggressive with them. I backed them up with my Elvish Captain and Konrad for leadership purposes, held back my white mage and druid for support (white mage sometimes doubling as an offensive weapon), a red mage and two Heroes to finish off opponents. Using my knight, I triggered the thieves, who, instead of attacking, went into a scramble for villages. This drew away some orcs (I lost two thieves), thinning the line. I sacrificed all my fresh recruits, a hero and one fresh mage to gain a bridgehead. I think this took a whole day (two night and one day), even pushing through at unfavourable time, compensating this with a diversion through the thieves. The dawn after this, I expanded my holdings from the southeastern part to the entire town and killed the Orcish king. I had about two turns to spare before the skeletons started to cross the bridge at the north. This allowed me to get in some fresh recruits(!) to again, soak up the damage at night using White mage and Red Mage to finish off dying skeletons. I recalled the rest of my mage cadre (had two left in reserve), made possible by my thieves who were expanding my possession of villages in the meantime to get in some gold. After that, it was careful management of my front line (preventing damage from counterattacks is more important than dealing damage in most cases while attacking) and my mage cadre that won the level.

My main critiques have little to do with this particular scenario. It is challenging, it forces the player to decide what to sacrifice and what to protect, it forces the player to appreciate speed and acceptable risk taking. But ultimately, it is perfectly winnable.

The biggest problem is how players approach this scenario. It is significantly more difficult compared to the previous scenario. Also, the previous scenarios are opportunities to level up some characters, but it's difficult to do so effectively without some serious thought. And it's important to have at least one healer (white mage / druid) and one damage dealer (red mage-line or sorceress) and one leadership-character (Konrad, Captain) to pack enough of a punch with simple recruits. And getting to this is almost impossible unless you take specific measures to accomplish this (especially: leveling Konrad and a druid won't happen unless you specifically cater for this to happen).

And while it's hard to build your roster, it's almost a necessity to sacrifice units in this scenario. You need to consciously decide what units are fodder or otherwise expendable and what units are to be kept alive. Spamming speed bumps to buy you time / save your core units is an important operational decision. One or two dead core units is a huge setback but not a lost scenario!

Lastly, players need to be aware of the genre-conventions that XP and leveling is king. In almost all games where units can have levels, a level two unit is worth much more than two level one units. And high level mages always rule the battlefield. In any game in fantasy settings which include magic users, high level magic users can be employed in the role of excellent support units (healers and boosters) and excellent damage dealers, while low level magic users are puny and worthless. It takes time and care to upgrade them, but that balances their power. More hints for players to make them aware of these strategic issues (dialogue at scenario 2 and 3) should reinforce these notions.

mgholson
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by mgholson » August 11th, 2012, 2:27 am

OK this is an awesome game and I really appreciate the time that has been put into it.

That being said I'm about to pull my hair out because of this level.

Played through the South Guard campaign without a single reload, enjoyable not real challenging, but it was a beginner campagin.

Stared HttT and blew thorugh the first 5 levels then hit a wall on Siege, tried about 20 different ways and couldn't beat it. Reloaded the level before and trained up, was able to get the to Necromancer's cave but couldn't beat him before i ran out of turns.

Reloaded from the begining and focused on leveling. Got 11 level 2s now that I'm on on Siege. It doesn't seem to make a difference I can get into the city but get overwhelmed by the advancing skeletons.

This would be a great level without the stupid necromancer and his skeleton army, or at least if he gave you several more turns before bringing his army into the city. I really think whoever does level design should make some changes. Sure you get the thieves to help but their damn near useless.

Is there any way I can cheat and get past this level? I'm tired of playing it over and over again.

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The_Afterman
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by The_Afterman » August 13th, 2012, 12:26 pm

than i would put rebel campaign to hold and find some easier campaign, if possible with orcs or undead.
Luckily almost every campaign I've played so far has a new fresh horde of one million orcs and undead. :lol2:

hukhan00
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by hukhan00 » October 24th, 2012, 3:53 pm

I died a dozen times before I decided to visit these forums. Here is what worked for me after that. (Thanks to whoever gave the advanced tip of creating lines with support characters)

I built a line with the highway man three elven rangers and a lancer supported by Konrad for leadership and a druid and whitemage on either side of him as the second line and posted them on the bushes (forest hexes) right in front of where Konrad starts from. Before I made that line I sent an elf scout on horseback that moved 10 spaces to the left and over the water. And on the right I sent a lancer and three horsemen with the lancer behind them. I made sure all three moved into position same turn. Two orcs broke and attacked my right party, balance came down towards Konrad and one went and hit the scout. I survived and sent the scout inside to raise the red flag. The four thieves then appeared. I killed one of the orcs on the right. The thieves attacked the king and took some points off him. Since all orcs were attacking below the King himself came and attacked the scout. He got him but not before the scout took him down a little more. Then my lancer, which moves 11 hexes, charged him and took him out. I lost my scout and the lancer but this damn scenario is so hard I was happy.

Then I survived the night time attacks, sent Konrad back and made 4 more mages, and this is key, sent one horseman who had become a lancer to the left. Sent Konrad back and advanced the line. Took me two cycles of days to get into the city simply advancing the main line. Whenever the highway man got injured I'd rotae him with a strong ranger.

The additional mages tilted the balance since the undead suck against arcane. The lancer by now had survived three attacks as he red flagged some positions along the way and broke free into the main area between the undead and the city. He stayed on the left and red flagged everything and no one chased after him and he recuperated all his strength. By now I had two merman initiates with magic guarding the city's entrance and with that awesome highway man as the main tank I could hold the city. I made a two more scouts, diverted two mages, took two rangers and exited from the right of the city with a surviving horseman thinking this party would kill the necromancer. But then I moved the fully recovered lancer on the left close to the cave and no one came at him. And from the left entrance he could in one move cross the cave and hit the necromancer. I sent him on a suicide mission. He dented the necromancer 80%. He hit back with one minion. He survived and in the next turn took him out. One lancer! What a stud!

This was by far the hardest scenario I have played in Wesnoth and compelled me to write the poem. Great bloody game by the way. Best turn based game I've ever played. Now my wife never gets her ipad back!

golemsci
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by golemsci » November 16th, 2012, 2:11 am

I had a lot of trouble on this scenario the first time I played - I ended up save-loading to get favourable horseman charges to win. I came back and had another go today, and found it much easier with more Wesnoth experience. The important things, I think, are recognizing that it's ok to use all your gold up and even go into negative gold (first time I assumed you lost units if you couldn't support them!), that the game is less about economics or village control than other similar games, that AI units are easily lured out and rarely take the best defensive positions, and that orcs can be devastated in daytime attacks.

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