Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

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GagarinGambit
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by GagarinGambit » March 19th, 2011, 4:14 pm

It seems that you do learn djf01, and that's good :) I believe that understanding how complicated and varied strategies you can try with Wesnoth will increase the enjoyment.

Now, as you begin to understand, managing your gold and recruit list is a key skill in order to win campaigns in the most difficult settings. For instance, I had many level 1 units in the verge of levelling up, because I indented to. Beginning a scenario with a level 1 unit about to level up is usually better than the same unit at level 2. That's because a. you'll save some gold until the unit levels up b. because this unit can take a beating and afterwards heal for free thanks to the levelling, while the levelled unit would need to rest for a few turns.

And anyway, if you're getting tired of trying to master HttH, then why not moving to another campaign? All campaigns are of good quality, perhaps you can try one of the intermediate ones on easy.
Linux. Space technology.

slyeyes
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by slyeyes » March 20th, 2011, 3:26 pm

(1) Medium, 1.8.4
(2) 5
(3) Very
(4) I like it when enemies taunt you. :lol2:
(5) Keeping my units alive while pressing the attack during night.
(6) 7
(7) I can't offer anything, really.

I attach my replay, just in case. Please do not mind that it's name is in russian. I did reload, but not to get a favorable outcome, but because i did something way too stupid.
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НП-Осада_Эленсефара_повтор.gz
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peet
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by peet » April 1st, 2011, 8:15 pm

Regarding the story, there is one change I would like to see in this scenario:

All the thieves that appear to help you are curently male. Why not make at least one of them female?

HttT is in part a 'learning' campaign, so if you haven't played MP yet this may be the first time you are seeing thieves (I know it was for me). Why not use both sets of sprites when you introduce them?

Just a thought.

Edit: Actually, after looking at the code for the scenario, I notice that when the thief "Gamlel" first appears, it is a she, but when she appears again (in the option to rise up inside the city, anyway) she becomes a he. That's definitely an error.

jiaming10
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by jiaming10 » April 2nd, 2011, 2:04 pm

jiaming10 wrote:
elvish_sovereign wrote:There have been plenty of people who have finished that. I've done it with Elvish Scouts only, but I've never done with the shaman line for some reason..
If it were me I think I would hold off the orcs in the forest as you said with Konrad, the loyal mage, the two loyal horseman (or one if you didn't get Simyr in BP), and your foot shamans. I would then send the flying units and loyal mermen over the water to flank/distract the orcs and incoming skeles. Retreat slowly west with your land army (I would recruit several shamans to sacrifice if needed), and when the thieves give you the offer, take the secret passage. That opens a ford into the left side of the orcish island, which if you did your distraction well enough, it should be quite open, which then you should quickly kill the Orcish leader and burst out from there.
Hmm...looks like they are doing it without even recalling? I guess i'm not that good, so I'll recall druids and sorcerers =p. I'm gonna give a try on getting shydes/slyphs before Muff Janal Penisular, otherwise my army are not mobile enough to capture sea villages. My northeast army can "almost" reach Muff Janal(reached those forest just above his castle), with 1 loyal mage, 1 sorceress, and 2 shaman. Most fearful is DA at night, so I'll need to finish it off with lvl 3 Konrad, otherwise slow it with shaman( don't expect survival ).
I'm back! And I finally beat this scenario after long time of losing. Always restarted the scenario when my strategy went wrong.

I replayed the "Resident Evil" level (Muff Janal Penisular), and lost my loyal mage. Please tell me what you think with my strategy.
Attachments
HttT-The_Siege_of_Elensefar_replay.gz
Playing with only shaman line, including lvl 2s and 3s (ver 1.8.4)
(46.77 KiB) Downloaded 252 times

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Maiklas3000
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by Maiklas3000 » April 21st, 2011, 11:50 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version? Challenging (hard); 1.9.5; 268 starting gold
(2) How difficult? (1-10) 9
(3) How clear? Clear.
(4) Dialog? Good.
(5) Challenges? The enemy forces are overwhelming. Loyal units are hard to keep alive, especially the thieves.
(6) How fun? (1-10) 9
(7) Changes? You could make the orcs and undead value Konrad less (leader_value=10.0 now) and reduce their gold slightly to compensate for reducing the effectiveness of using Konrad as a decoy.
(8) Restarts/reloads? Restarted from start numerous times. No save-loads.

Replay attached. It's one of my most interesting replays and may help those who are stuck on this level. I emphasized horse units and mermen, recalling about 4 each. I took a cue from others and used my leader to distract the orcs and later the undead. To do this, I sent Konrad on a trip to the west island. This screenshot is almost comical, showing how the orcs took the bait - hook, line and sinker:
Image

Once the orc leader was threatened by Knights in the east, the orcs rushed back to try to protect him. By then, the undead were arriving in the city, and most ran off after Konrad to the west island and then followed him south while I fought the orcs in the city. Divide and conquer. With my troops heavily wounded, I wisely decided to retreat out of the city one night, but returned by day to crush the remaining orcs. Then I fought the undead on the southern plain, pointlessly losing my last loyal thief in the process. I had to rush north after that, fighting my way past the trickle of undead recruits and finally killing the undead leader with just one turn to spare. An exciting finish to an exciting battle. If I had not chosen a Paladin for the advancement of a Knight, I don't think I would have been able to kill the undead leader in time.
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HttT-The_Siege_of_Elensefar_replay.gz
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Faello
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by Faello » May 19th, 2011, 1:36 am

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

Challenging (Champion), 1.9.6, no saves/reloads, 184 starting gold

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

9. <after the 05b: Isles of the Damned>

This scenario is hard, yet quite playable if player will choose the "money road" (5a: Muff Malal's Penisula) but even with well played 05b: Isle of the Damned I still had only 184 gold pieces to begin with vs. Agadla (Orcish Warlord, blue, center keep) 240gp and Muff Janaal (Dark Sorcerer, green, far [N] keep in the cave) 220 gp.

Now, after passing it, I'm almost 100% sure that this scenario is unplayable with default amount of gold set for this scenario at this difficulty level with a no saves/reloads rule. I restarted this scenario multiple times, first trying to defend on the river (which was the best of my so-so ideas how to play this scenario, but I've always failed several times miserably losing some of my loyal units from previous scenarios (mostly Haldiel or Simyr, because I was shielding myself with the knights). I've tried also rushing the Orcish Warlord with a horsemen and my loyal knights - most often I wasn't even able to kill him and when I was, I was too battered up to withstand marching UD. Luring AI with Konrad moving into the water also didn't work, since I didn''t have enough money to buy the necessary amount of the cannon fodder <elvish fighters :P >. Thus, only one way remained.

The hard way.

1)UNITS: This scenario is so hard, mostly because player doesn't have the good "tank" unit in his roster - knights are the best he can get BUT they're vulnerable to the pierce damage, and AI can deal a lot of it in this scenario. Agadla (Orcish Warlord) recruits ONLY orcish warriors (lvl2), assasins and crossbowmen and has 100% initiative at the beginning of this battle, holding first important ToD and superior fighting positions. Also, together with the UD, AI has almost 3x the amount of player villages. Muff Janaal (Dark Sorcerer) goes with a mass skeletons+skeleton archers mix that nicely supports the lvl2 preference of the Northeners commander and simultaneusly, require the powerful arcane/fire/impact type of damage, which can be only achieved by sacrificing some gold on the vulnerable to the Northeners army units...

Considering all of that, I decided to use my gold in the most efficient way and get my most efficient loyal units & mixed them with a several shamans (they're essential to pass this scenario) and as much cannon fodder I could get (nearly levelled up fighter was worth more than 20gp I had to pay for this recall, you can watch the replay and see why ^_^ ). Every time I had some gold, I carefuly decided what I need for the next "stage" of this scenario.

2)THIEVES: In turn 4/29, pack of 3 loyal thieves comes out of the forest and offers their service to Konrad. On the lower difficulty levels AND with more gold on this one, the best option is to ambush the orcs with them. Usually the lvl1 die in the ambush but it allows player to deal with the Orcish Warlord faster and simultaneusly block the skeletons on the bridge before they'll support the Northeners efficiently. Well, it's NOT a best idea with such amount of gold as I had, so I decided to use them to harass efficiently AI economy by stealing it's villages. Later, one of them died in the nasty way :|

3)TACTIC: Deep area defence. Player needs to lure the Northeners out and withstand the first few turns, slowing down enemies and sometimes praying for a fair luck. Later he needs to do similar thing with the undeads (it should be easier with some units levelled up on the orcs and - with a good eco harassment with thieves - more units to use vs. them). My reatively small army ate TONS of damage here, so healing with Moremirmu and druid was essential for my army survival. After player will defeat the UD army core, dealing with the warlord should be easy <slow down the [censored] and range-damage him 8) >. But that's not everything. This scenario has incredibly annoying ending - if player will attack Muff Janaal in his keep, he will get a gift of 60gp for recruits and 2 loyal lvl 2 melee units <revenant and deathlade>. Cave isn't illuminated and gives a damage bonus to chaotic units, so it's really hard to move forward and kill enemy units NOT to mention the fact that it's a guaranteed place to lose some of your units :doh:

Finished this one in turn 26/29 and I don''t think that I've ever played a harder campaign scenario - I really recommend watching a replay from this one :)

6 losses, 49 kills

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Crystal clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Crystal clear, quite interesting <ofc Delfador HAD to go somewhere else again :annoyed: >

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Whole scenario was a major challenge. It was very difficult.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

6. [EDIT]* 8.

Depends on the road taken by the player to it. If it was 5a: Muff Malal's Penisula, it's probably more about fun and less about burning your grey cells, but after the 05b: Isle of the Damned on this difficulty level... I was really happy that I was past it - that's for sure.

[EDIT]* Once you know what to do, it's easier to move forward and it's quite possible to save all the loyal units (thieves) from death <replay in the post below this one>

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Raise the minimal amount of gold player has at the beginning of this scenario! Minimal amount of the gold means that this scenario should be possible to complete with it on ANY difficulty level. I'm pretty sure it's unplayable with minimal amount of gold at this difficulty level with a no saves/reloads policy.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

Yes, multiple restarts, no saves/reloads.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?

The same WML error that happened to me already in the two other cases. Harmless, but irritating.

Replay attached:
Attachments
HttT-The_Siege_of_Elensefar_replay.gz
The Siege of Elensefar replay <after Isle of the Damned>, Challenging (Champion) difficulty level, 1.9.6, no saves/reloads
(52.92 KiB) Downloaded 336 times
Last edited by Faello on May 20th, 2011, 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Faello
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by Faello » May 20th, 2011, 11:07 pm

I've decided to play Siege of Elensefar one more time and do it without any loyal units losses just for fun (we're talking about one of the thieves I've lost in the previous replay). Once you know what to do, it's actually quite enjoyable.

So, yet again no saves/reloads, no loyal units losses (thieves!), 184 starting gp, hard difficulty level, no weird tricks, Siege of Elensefar

Finished in turn 26/29.

2 losses, 48 kills

Guess I was too harsh on this scenario regarding the fun rating.

Replay attached:
Attachments
HttT-The_Siege_of_Elensefar_replay.gz
Siege of Elensefar <after Isle of the Damned>, Challenging (hard) difficulty level, no saves/reloads, no loyal units losses
(51.89 KiB) Downloaded 335 times
The yellow jester does not play
but gently pulls the strings
and smiles as the puppets dance
in the court of the Crimson King.

WanderingHero
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by WanderingHero » June 1st, 2011, 2:23 pm

This has been review so many times I only have little bits to add.

Decent level but a bit of a sudden spike in difficulty. The sudden arrival of undead is a shock, since I don't think your average newbie is going to think to raise mages to suddenly fight undead, when your enemy has just about always been orcs.....
The orc part of the siege was fun, if tricky, but it was a puzzle tricky, the undead part was just annoying and tedious....

Storywise I like that this felt like a real blow for the war effort as opposed to another diversion.

WeLuvUkonrad
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by WeLuvUkonrad » June 14th, 2011, 10:34 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

Normal

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

10

It's waaaaaaaay too big of a difficulty spike for first time players. It would be more than enough for a 6th scenario if it was just taking the town from the orcs, but on top of that you have to worry about a 2nd army coming to reinforce them. On top of THAT they're all skeletons, who are resistant to all the units you've been buying up until that point (let's face it, mages suck against orcs which were all you were fighting up until that point so it's not like you were buying mages and leveling them). On top of THAT, you have to race the huge distance to the 2nd enemy leader to make it in time. On top of THAT, he's ridiculously fortified in a cave. On top of THAT, he gets a super secret bonus as soon as you reach him.


(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Crystal


(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

The thieves' dialog wasn't that clear on how exactly they'd help you. I had to reload once I saw exactly what they were going to do.


(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

EVERYTHING. Defeating the orcs is hard, but doable. But then the undead on top of that just make it next to impossible for first time players and practically forces you to go back and replay all the previous scenarios perfectly so you'll have the maximum amount of gold and experience coming into this battle. Not fun.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

2

It gets one point for the potential of a fun siege with options, but the super frustration of the undead just make it way too frustrating. This should have been like the 12th battle you faced, not the 6th.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Have the player face a trickle of skeletons in an earlier battle so you'd know what to expect later on and have an idea to start getting mages. Up until that point your army is entirely anti-orc when suddenly you get an all-skeleton army dumped right on you and no enemy up until that point had such strong blade/pierce resists and mages were crap against orcs so you never bothered to get them.

Also tone down the degree to which the undead leader is fortified. It's bad enough he's on a super chokepoint, but did he have to be in a cave on top of that? Or get the surprise bonus when you entered?

Ultimately I would strip out the undead player entirely, which would make it just right for what a 6th battle should be. Or at least reduce the undead to just a couple skeletons to give the player a feel for future non-orc enemies.

XDms
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by XDms » June 16th, 2011, 8:42 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Challenging, 1.9.6

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
10. I got stuck in this scenario, stopped for some months then decided to play Wesnoth again with other campaigns before trying again. I can't believe i finally did it, especially after Isle of the Damned

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Maybe the thief's choices are not so clear, everything else it's ok

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Everything was a major challenge: need defend myself from the orcs while healing my units, then defend from the undeads which are resistant to weapons except some (and i took note of it when i began the campaign again), then when all their armies are gone, use the remaining turns to rush and kill both enemy leaders. And in the end it's like getting a punch in the eye when the dark mage "welcomes" you :?

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
First time i tried, 1. Now that i understood the strategy, what units i needed and how to use them: 7, but i still think the scenario it's too much hard

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
At least more gold for the player

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Many multiple restarts in the beginning (months ago) and still failing at it, knowing my strat and units were not sufficient. This time i did some reloads during the undead assault because of some moves i could avoid do

Attached my replay
Attachments
HttT-The_Siege_of_Elensefar_replay.gz
The Siege of Elensefar - after "Isle of the Damned"; Challenging (1.9.6)
(48.85 KiB) Downloaded 224 times

Swordthrower
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by Swordthrower » July 9th, 2011, 5:54 am

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
iPad on easy
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
couldn't be clearer
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
good continuation of ascending magnitude
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
avoiding key losses knowing that losing veteran units can make continuing a campaign impossible later on, when the difficulty is assuming more than a few of them survived and the enemy has more veteran units accordingly
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
4 would be higher but seemingly mandatory loss of veteran units 1/4 of the way into campaign is demoralizing
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
add time allowing player to approach more cautiously if veteran survival is more important to them than gold

Skaithe
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by Skaithe » July 13th, 2011, 9:34 am

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
v1.9.7 - Champion - Challenging

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
7 - Hardest up to this point.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Clear -- although perhaps the dialogue with the thieves could have been slightly more clear. I was not exactly sure the measure of control I would have over them and I worried about risking them in the second choice. After choosing the second choice just to see what it said, the dialogue became very clear, saying exactly what they would do and when they would do it (after raising red flag in village in the city). However, the first time I played, I chose the first choice because I didn't feel the second choice explained enough prior to clicking on it. If any of that makes any sense. Maybe I need to be more clear. :)

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Keeping vets alive. Multiple waves of enemies was rough as well. Orcs/Undead.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I would maybe have the thieves explain what they were going to do exactly more clearly before the choice is made.
Attachments
HttT-The_Siege_of_Elensefar_replay.gz
(46.71 KiB) Downloaded 213 times

ayearhasgone
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by ayearhasgone » August 14th, 2011, 11:34 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Normal, 1.8.6

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
7. Not hard to beat per se, but hard to avoid heavy casualties in the process. (Note: I've only ever played this after 05b, Isle of the Damned)

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
It was par for the course, as they say.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Heavy casualties from the level 2 Orcs, AND fighting the undead afterwards. I always ended up with a small group of hardened veterans slowly trodding north.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8. It is hard and can be frustrating but I love a good tactical challenge.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I'd tone the orcs down to be honest. Securing the city before the undead arrive is doable but will result in a lot of losses. I lost my loyal Knight and several level 2, including the mage from IotD and all my Druids.

The way I see it, there are two ways to beat this scenario while avoiding heavy losses.

1) Rush the city with fast-moving fodder units, clogging the orcish line. Have take a village, causing the thieves to pop out. Surround and begin backstabbing the enemy warlord. The orcs should rush to defend him. Now send your veterans in and mop up as the skellies star to trickle in.

Or 2) Hang around outside the city, drawing the orcs into the water and allowing the undead to trickle down. Slowly whittle away at the enemy lines until you can safely make an offensive into the city. Recruit at the central citadel and push northwards to clean up the undead.

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vodot
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by vodot » October 14th, 2011, 10:31 pm

This scenario is like the vortex of odds-FAIL. My elves are getting hit 2-3 times per combat in the forest; my thieves get 3-hit KO'd in castles and villages... my mermen get 3-hit in shallows... I have never cussed so many times in such a short span.

This scenario is seriously making me consider restarting the campaign on Normal- even though I handily smoked all 5 preceding scenarios on Hard (1.8.6). This is my first-ever Wesnoth campaign, and I'm coming in the "easy" way with 220 gold.

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taptap
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by taptap » October 17th, 2011, 12:11 pm

vodot wrote:This scenario is seriously making me consider restarting the campaign on Normal- even though I handily smoked all 5 preceding scenarios on Hard (1.8.6). This is my first-ever Wesnoth campaign, and I'm coming in the "easy" way with 220 gold.
So, you play your first-ever Wesnoth campaign and expect to beat it on hard?

I played this on normal when I started, and still had a rough time in Isle of the Damned and this one, but they really make you learn things, healing, terrain, leadership you really want to use everything you have. I found it necessary to overrecruit fighters and defend against the first wave, accepting some losses and then push, as long as I tried to rely mainly on veterans I was losing this level over and over and even if I finally was winning against the orc, I was unable to take out the undead within the turn limit. It also makes your leadership more effective if you use it on level1 units.

I can't imagine how one can push first, on bad terrain with smaller forces than your opponent, especially when you can not level your elf units during the Isle of the Damned, Moremiru was a big help and the experienced mermen got some action too. I would probably play differently now. But I am not going to start HttT on hard before I played some more of the other campaigns.

The only odd thing to me was that you have to defend when you are supposed to be the attacker (Siege of Elensefar), there are other scenarios that force you to attack rapidly (Valley of Death in Heir to the Throne or Nemesis in the Sojournings of Grog) here you are supposed to be the attacker yet have to defend first. But this and Isle of the Damned were the two scenarios that forced me to appreciate the depth of Battle for Wesnoth.
I am a Saurian Skirmisher: I'm a real pest, especially at night.

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